h2o hybrid

I did search and didn't find anything, but just saw a brief segment on CNN.com streaming about a h2o hybrid conversion kit. So, what do you think? fact or fiction?. Basically it uses electrolisis to extract the hydrogen from the h2o and then pump it into the carb or fuel injectors. found a copule sites on it, but CNN did a horble job about it and just highlighted it with no way to find the information. But here is what I found:

http://www.carwaterkit.com/?gclid=CLKJg-KOypMCFQuXGgodQFmXig

 

Ben

 

And yes, I have my flame suite on. but just want this to be a discussion point. So please if you have nothing constructive to say, don't say it at all.

what do you think? fact or fiction?.

 

Firstly, "Non Sense" is actually a single word as in "nonsense". Secondly, it depends on what is

meant by "working". Anyone can dissociate water into hydrogen and oxygen with electrolyses

(I did this long ago as a 14 year old in a kitchen sink using D-cells) and then use the hydrogen

as fuel.

 

Of course getting the hydrogen extracted from water would require more energy than you would

get back from burning the hydrogen as fuel because electrolyses is less than 100% efficient. Add

to that the 25% or so efficiency of the engine running the alternator, the less than 100% efficient

alternator and battery and this becomes a totally losing proposition. The increased mileage claims

are completely bogus. Promoters of this scheme are capitalizing on the profound scientific illiteracy

of their uninformed customers.

Firstly, "Non Sense" is actually a single word as in "nonsense". Secondly, it depends on what is

meant by "working". Anyone can dissociate water into hydrogen and oxygen with electrolyses

(I did this long ago as a 14 year old in a kitchen sink using D-cells) and then use the hydrogen

as fuel.

 

Of course getting the hydrogen extracted from water would require more energy than you would

get back from burning the hydrogen as fuel because electrolyses is less than 100% efficient. Add

to that the 25% or so efficiency of the engine running the alternator, the less than 100% efficient

alternator and battery and this becomes a totally losing proposition. The increased mileage claims

are completely bogus. Promoters of this scheme are capitalizing on the profound scientific illiteracy

of their uninformed customers.

 

ding ding ding, we have a winnar!

Sorry for my spellig errors. Like my title says, resident dyslexic, I can't spell even if my life depended on it. But I wasn't posting this because of the blerb on CNN and wanted to start a constructive dialog about it.

If this was possible, do you think that the big car companies would be offering it?

 

Just a thought. I am not sure myself as you can run your diesel on SVO and the car companies have not offered a OEM kit for the diesels.

 

I personally believe that all of the things that claim to improve your mileage do not. The reason I believe this is that the car companies all are spending Billions on R&D on how to improve mileage. If it was as easy as installing a little thing in your intake to swirl air in a more efficient manner I believe they would have done it.

 

I think it is all snake oil.

It is completely ridiculous from an energy efficiency point of view. The only way I see this not being an outright untruth is if it being treated like a plug-in hydrid (but instead of powering a motor, you make H2 to inject into the engine). Another possible way would be chemically generating hydrogen (think something like sodium metal), but then you need that as well (and they are usually very unstable because they also react violently with water vapor in the air).

 

Think of it this way as an example to disprove the idea:

1. Run a 200 hp engine

2. Take 50 hp to the alternator to generate electricity (minus energy losses)

3. Take electricity to generate H2 and O2 via electrolysis, presumably using a reverse fuel cell since they are fairly efficient (minus more energy losses)

4. Take H2 and O2 and inject into the engine along with less fuel than the initial charge. However, because of the energy losses in the above steps, you did not generate 50 hp worth of H2/O2. So on this cycle, you only generate, say, 175 hp.

6. The power continues to decrease until you stop making hydrogen or add more fuel

 

**Let say you put in the same amount of fuel as before, but with H2/O2 as well and can generate 225 hp total once this process gets to a steady state. But you are still only getting 175 hp to the crank, when you could have gotten 200 without the electrolysis.

 

(the above assume no change in combustion efficiency by adding hydrogen)

 

I guess one other way this could be valid is if adding the H2/O2 to the engine significantly increase the efficiency of the engine. This efficiency increase would have to offset the energy losses from the conversion of mechanical work --> electricity --> chemical energy, which would be unlikely.

 

Displacing some air with pure O2 would definitely allow for more efficient engines (with proper tuning). The displacing of some of the nitrogen in the air would allow the same pressures in the cylinder with less fuel combusted (though likely with higher temperatures and more NOx formation). I think hydrogen also has a higher molar energy density than hydrocarbons, so that may help a little bit as well.

 

Regardless, it is just one more complicated system that can malfunction and cause problems; likely with no gain and probably unnecessarily sapping engine power.

Actually there is another way to improve efficiency using water, and it doesn't involve splitting the H2O molecule.

 

Here's how it works:

Water is injected into the cylinder after the exhaust gasses are pushed out. At this point, the cylinder is hot from all of the energy from burnt gasoline wasted as heat. When the water hits the cylinder, it instantly vaporizes expanding rapidly, running an extra 2 strokes for a total of 6 (compared to the normal 4). Prototypes have shown a 40% improvement in efficiency.

 

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2007-05/invention-awards-six-strokes-genius

 

The full article in the Popular Science had more details.

 

 

Edit: Wikipedia has all answers- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crower_six_stroke

6-stroke is a neat idea.

i have a simple fuel cell i made hooked up to a second car battery and i get 42 mpg, i used to get 18mpg... so your all bullshit keep thinking inside the box....while i fill up my car once a week.... and i drive 40 miles to work .... and and please dont ever quote wikipedia as a reliable source.....because its not

i have a simple fuel cell i made hooked up to a second car battery and i get 42 mpg, i used to get 18mpg... so your all bullshit keep thinking inside the box....while i fill up my car once a week.... and i drive 40 miles to work .... and and please dont ever quote wikipedia as a reliable source.....because its not

 

In your LGT. really, please share

this comes out every summer when people start griping about fuel prices.

 

if it were viable, the venture capitalists would be all over it. Thats the simple truth

I can't believe "Fact" is leading the poll...

It's a fact that it's fiction

i have a simple fuel cell i made hooked up to a second car battery and i get 42 mpg, i used to get 18mpg... so your all bullshit keep thinking inside the box....while i fill up my car once a week.... and i drive 40 miles to work .... and and please dont ever quote wikipedia as a reliable source.....because its not

 

Let's see it.

What do you have, how you made it, how you hooked it up etc.

public education = EPIC FAIL

interesting. a good friend of mine has a business they are starting that sells these types of products. what they have found thus far after installing in 2 vehicles has been an incredible increase in fuel economy. From 14 mpg in their truck to 25 mpg. I say that's pretty significant. I have another friend of mine who installed one in his 98 Legacy GT that got about 22 mpg and now getting well over 40 mpg. So after seeing these installed and used on 2 personal friend's vehicles, I'm left to believe it does work and so far, working pretty damn well.

interesting. a good friend of mine has a business they are starting that sells these types of products. what they have found thus far after installing in 2 vehicles has been an incredible increase in fuel economy. From 14 mpg in their truck to 25 mpg. I say that's pretty significant. I have another friend of mine who installed one in his 98 Legacy GT that got about 22 mpg and now getting well over 40 mpg. So after seeing these installed and used on 2 personal friend's vehicles, I'm left to believe it does work and so far, working pretty damn well.

then why doesnt everyone have it & why arent the makers holding out for billions in profits?

Efficiency is the long-pole and a key to why this won't make it in the short-term. But there's still a piece missing - The tailpipe emission is water vapor, so why not capture that and recycle it back into the "system".

SBT

dad sent me this link a few months ago, in theory it works, still kinda hesitant to try on my legacy, if the civic was still on the road id try it on that instead.

 

 

http://www.water-4-fuel.com/

 

 

 

 

IMO i think this works, and the car company's are only after money!

call me crazy but i think there is a conspiracy going on about alternative fuels and free energy machines.

This whole Brown's gas snake oil is nothing new. It's funny to see people jump on the bandwagon every time gas prices go up like it's some innovative technology.

This whole Brown's gas snake oil is nothing new. It's funny to see people jump on the bandwagon every time gas prices go up like it's some innovative technology.

that's what I'm sayin

its been around for decades, and its not that hard to extract H2 from H2O, 12 volts low amperage electrolysis, the same way you would use to remove rust from metal parts.

 

i dont know why pretty much all you guys are against it? so what if it doesn't give you a gain in HP your saving money!

then why doesnt everyone have it & why arent the makers holding out for billions in profits?

because this kit is expensive: $2000 installed.

 

if it were cheaper, more people would do it.

then why doesnt everyone have it & why arent the makers holding out for billions in profits?

 

 

Cause i do believe this is something that you CANNOT patten in north America

dad sent me this link a few months ago, in theory it works, still kinda hesitant to try on my legacy, if the civic was still on the road id try it on that instead.

 

 

http://www.water-4-fuel.com/

 

 

 

 

IMO i think this works, and the car company's are only after money!

call me crazy but i think there is a conspiracy going on about alternative fuels and free energy machines.

if it weren't for the $2K price tag on the system, I'd consider doing this on the new STI. I'd love to see 30-40 mpg in town avg! and still have plenty of power for the strip and autox.