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Help me understand - why is an OEM clutch not a good idea for ~260whp/290wtq


JoeFromPA

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Hi all,

 

I'm considering pro-actively replacing my clutch and TOB for a number of reasons. To be clear, the clutch on my stock LGT could be perfectly fine and have another 60k miles in it.

 

At the same time, I'm considering going to a basic stage 2. Like DP only stage 2, stock turbo, tune. I basically just want the power curve smoothed out, boost response to come on faster, and overall a more enjoyable driving experience out of the stock engine.

 

This level of tune really gives about ~280-300 wheel torque. And that comes on around 3000ish rpms.

 

Now we know the stock clutch CAN HOLD that amount of power.

 

So my question is this:

 

If I'm not launching, and I'm not being an idiot and majorly slipping the clutch in between WOT gear shifts in the meat of the powerband, why wouldn't an OEM clutch last just as long at stage 2 as stock?

 

Clutch wear only really occurs when it's slipping and the stock clutch can hold the power fine once in gear. So why wouldn't the OEM clutch be a fine option for this level of power and driving style?

 

I'd welcome any thoughts on this.

 

Joe

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An OEM clutch is fine for that power level and driving style.
[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard
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Thanks Bacs. Probably more of a long-standing topic I've seen beaten to death on here where most people recommend going to an ACT HD or similar style clutch.

 

In terms of the clutch itself, I've been very happy with OEM performance. I've never felt it slip, it doesn't stink for me, it's quiet and smooth, and I've gotten nearly 80k out of it. It's also ~$300-400 less than most upgraded clutches.

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I went stg2 at 2K miles and put out 297 wheel/tq on a mustang dyno.

I went stg3 at 34K miles with now 307 wheel/tq on a mustang dyno

currently at 44K miles on original clutch with no issues at all. But I have to admit I am gentle en the drive-train, not too many launches and no flat foot shifting.

Took the car out 2 weeks ago when it was -27C and I could spin the wheels hitting boost in 3'rd on dry pavement, clutch seems to be keeping up quite well!

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No reason to replace the clutch when going stage2 nor do I typically see people say you have to upgrade your clutch. I see people say that being prepared financially for a clutch job is the way to go (and reading up on replacements wouldnt hurt). Once people get some powa they want to use it; may as well upgrade to something more comfortable with a little abuse.
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When my OEM clutch gave up powering my stage 2 wagon for 3 years, I went the ACT clutch and WRX single mass FW route so common for the 05 guys.

 

Best decision ever.

 

Now I know your 08 has a single mass FW already which helps with the overall better feel, but the ACT has a lot of holding power and I generally feel if you are going to replace a worn out part, replace it with something better built.

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I'm with Gire. When my clutch goes, I won't be using another OEM clutch.

 

At the same time, I also don't plan on staying at this power level.

 

All I ask, is that my stock clutch last while my new setup gets tuned. Im not interested in the clutch slipping on the dyno.

[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard
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Can you explain to me how the ACT clutch is better built? I understand it's facing material has a higher friction co-efficient for greater holding power. It takes some slack out of the system in terms of the clutch being the weak point, and may introduce the greater chance of clutch shudder (since it's more tightly sprung AFAIK). Is it actually better built somehow?
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Joe, you have to balance the tradeoffs. If clutch shudder/chatter is absolutely something you can not risk or tolerate, or if you don't want to put up with a heavier pedal, then "stay stock, stay happy."

 

But if there's a good chance that you'll do some hard driving with the car using the added power and you can tolerate the little extra noise and the heavier pedal, then I would suggest getting an upgraded heavier duty clutch.

 

At stage 2 power levels, you have enough power to easily smoke and/or glaze the clutch during a hard launch...and once it starts slipping during that launch, you can release the pedal the entire way and it still might not fully engage for the rest of the launch...at least that was my experience with my stock clutch.

 

My 2 cents.

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what is stage 2 after all but all the prep-work for stage 3 which may very likely come later.

Haha. Well put!

Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs.
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This has been helpful guys, thanks. Coming up on 80k, the car has never had a hard launch nor do I ever intend it to. My wife and I both treat the clutch & transmission gently- our fun is in gear, not in between gears. I wait for full engagement before going WOT, so does she.

 

I'm looking at ~$1050 to replace the clutchwith an OEM unit, labor, and flywheel re-surface + TSK3 kit. Give or take a bit. An upgraded clutch adds $450 to that. I've got to weigh the benefit of an upgraded clutch gain vs. adding 45%to the cost of the job.

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Hmm that sounds rather pricey. For that price you should be getting a new FW at least I would think.

 

$530 for new FW and OEM clutch from FredBeans. $160 for TSK3 kit. So $690 for total parts.

 

$370 for labor and they're not even giving you a new FW?

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Hmm that sounds rather pricey. For that price you should be getting a new FW at least I would think.

 

$530 for new FW and OEM clutch from FredBeans. $160 for TSK3 kit. So $690 for total parts.

 

$370 for labor and they're not even giving you a new FW?

 

$370 is cheap labor. It's usually ~$500.

[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard
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Resurfacing a flywheel isn't free.

 

There's a good chance it's about $550 in parts (clutch, resurface, and TSK3) and $500 in labor.

 

If it's a dealer, then that's about right on.

[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard
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Hi Invar,

 

It's ~$305 for the OEM clutch, $165 for the TSK3, and $575 for the labor + flywheel re-surface + Extra-S fluid change.

 

I'm thinking 5 hours @ $100/hour + fluid basically. They charge about $80 to re-surface the flywheel and i don't know why I'd want to get a new one at that point - it's far less expensive and it's freshly confirmed to be true. Plus it's ever so slightly lighter than the OEM SM flywheel after being re-surfaced :)

 

Edit: I gotta tell ya - that's less than $900 for the clutch job without the special TO bearing kit, and including a high-grade trans fluid re-fill and flywheel re-surface. I consider that a pretty reasonable price from somewhere that's NOT a shady shop / "friend". This would be from an experienced Subaru shop. I'm adding on the TSK3, which brings me over $1000.

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Labor rates vary from location to location.

 

Out here, most dealers charge in the $110-$120/hr range. Independent shops tend to hover between 80 and 90. The terrible shops, those are the ones that work for $60 or so. IMO, a good shop needs to charge more. How else can they pay the technicians qualified for the level of service they want to provide? $70/hr would barely keep the lights on to pay an ASE certified master tech. Jobs almost always take longer than book rate, especially when it comes to modifications. A good tech will make $30-$35/hr, the office manager will make $20-$25/hr. Best case, you get $20/hr to cover overhead, and that doesn't pay the owner of the shop or the guy that cleans the place.

 

The cost-vs-quality relationship is very very strong in the private sector. Dealerships are thieves, so they don't count. They pay all but their most senior techs terribly, pay their staff terribly, and push the burden of overhead onto the dealership.

 

$1050 is actually a really good price, I think. Sounds like that shop is pretty fair.

[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard
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As mentioned above, if you're going to stage 2, you may very well decide to continue to stage 3 later. In that case, doesn't it make sense to go to a light weight flywheel while you have the thing apart. ACT clutch and flywheel is what I got, and I'm very happy with the combo.
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Lightweight flywheels suck.
[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard
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