Post your base timing table

I recently fixed my o2 sensor and moved it behind the turbo, and also changed my pcv. What a difference those made, and I was able to add a bunch of timing. I have yet to get knock even in texas heat on 93 shell, except low load knock.

 

So I just thought it would be neat to share our timing maps correlated to our mods and gas.

 

Stock box and filter

Perrin EL header

Grimspeed up

Ebay DP

Stock mufflers

 

(currently building an a2w and I have a vf52 that's ported sitting on the shelf)

 

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f338/adosdrummer/Screenshot15_zps308bc99e.png

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f338/adosdrummer/Screenshot16_zps7a1c3538.png

You need to show total timing, not just base timing

 

Ie Base timing + Knock correction advance

 

Phil

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f338/adosdrummer/Screenshot18_zps90125db4.png

The amount of boost you're targeting is also important. At a glance though you're running a lot more timing than I am.

 

Also, not sure why moving your O2 sensor would matter when you're in moderate to high boost? You switch to OL mode, your car fuels blindly anyway.

For a little less heat and pressure. Hoping to make the sensor last a little longer. I know there is a lot to account for in timing. Just covering the basic and being generic. But ill post my target boost for ya.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f338/adosdrummer/Screenshot19_zpsc4be8a11.png

Hmm that's interesting. You seem to run a lot more total timing than I do. Are you sure you're not knocking via FBKC? What's your fueling table look like?

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f338/adosdrummer/Screenshot20_zps98cedf20.png

 

Ill take a log and post it for ya. Always helps to have a second set of eyes. But I am not getting any knock counts. Only on a few occasion with low load.

my wide band is MIA.. but after the pcv valve and new front 02 my gas mileage has increased. I have no knock counts, and no worry some LV.

I wonder if its the ELH that allows the extra timing.. im also not sticking the wick out too far with the boost.

The 2.45 load column in the base timing from 5600 to redline is less timing than you are running at 3.20 load...

correct, boost is dropping off, allowing me to run more timing up top.

two back to back third gear pulls, and a LV right after

romraiderlog_20130530_213822.csv

romraiderlog_20130530_213857.csv

You're right, no knock. But you're also missing your targets by QUITE a significant amount. You're not even close.

 

http://www.crimetank.com/misc/adosdrummer.xlsx

 

Suggest you read this:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/tuning-timing-vs-tuning-boost-156693.html

edit: And this:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/tune-boost-tune-timing-183024.html

I am not concerned with hitting the targets at this point, The car runs strong, with no knock. I am satisfied with the tune until I get the time to finish the fab on my a2w and install my ported vf52. Then it will be time to re tune and dial it in. I am always logging and reflashing.

You *should* be concerned about hitting your targets. I'm on my phone right now so I can't get into all the reasons why but I will when I get home.

 

Just consider this for now: you're only able to achieve the timing that you have right now because you're making less boost. What do you think will happen when the winter hits, spool is faster, boost builds easier and you get to your targets, timing gets advanced because of the IAT compensation?

 

give you a hint: it rhymes with lock.

You're also likely making a lot less power because of how much boost you're missing.

I am not concerned with hitting the targets at this point, The car runs strong, with no knock. I am satisfied with the tune until I get the time to finish the fab on my a2w and install my ported vf52. Then it will be time to re tune and dial it in. I am always logging and reflashing.

I'm home now, so let me enumerate a few things that I feel are important that maybe you might not realize or have overlooked.

 

1) Logging and making adjustments and flashing is good. But you have to realize that every time you flash, you are completely wiping out your learned fuel trims. It takes a LONG while for Trim D to settle in fully and you're not giving it the chance to do so.

 

2) If you DID give it a chance to settle in and Trim D goes negative, that'll mean it's pulling fuel. A -1.00 value in Trim D can easily cause your WOT (which is affected by Trim D) to go lean, resulting in knock.

 

3) Already explained why you should be trying to get your map to actually achieve your boost targets. Your boost targets are targets for a reason.... because you're TRYING to reach that number. If you ignore your targets, then why bother having them at all? They are there for you to work your adjustments around.

 

4) You should log IAT and Turbo Dynamics Proportional and Integral as well as Primary WGDC so you can figure out why you're missing your target by so much. It might simply be a bad case of heatsoak. Or maybe not.

 

5) You're not off by 1 or 2 PSI. You're off by at LEAST 1.5 PSI and at some points as much as 5 PSI. That is not an insignificant amount and instead of advancing your timing, you really should be looking at this. You drive a turbo charged vehicle... you can't ignore the performance of your turbocharger.

I don't understand the reason for posting our timing maps. Comparing timing maps on different setups doesn't show anything. Timing is determined based on flame speed and piston speed. It will change between setups. Even two cars that have identical mods that fill up at the same gas station will have different timing requirements.

 

More timing doesn't always make more power. You set spark advance so you reach peak combustion chamber pressure at the proper crank angle ATDC on the power stroke. I don't know exactly what it is on a Subaru engine, but I've seen that it's usually in the range of 15-20 degrees of crank angle ATDC. If this timing advance can be reached on pump gas then you are good to go, but it usually can't at WOT.

 

Couple rules of thumb: Timing usually decreases as load increases. Timing usually increases as engine speed increases.

 

If you want to know more read Greg Banish's book Engine Management: Advanced Tuning.

I'm home now, so let me enumerate a few things that I feel are important that maybe you might not realize or have overlooked.

 

1) Logging and making adjustments and flashing is good. But you have to realize that every time you flash, you are completely wiping out your learned fuel trims. It takes a LONG while for Trim D to settle in fully and you're not giving it the chance to do so.

 

2) If you DID give it a chance to settle in and Trim D goes negative, that'll mean it's pulling fuel. A -1.00 value in Trim D can easily cause your WOT (which is affected by Trim D) to go lean, resulting in knock.

 

3) Already explained why you should be trying to get your map to actually achieve your boost targets. Your boost targets are targets for a reason.... because you're TRYING to reach that number. If you ignore your targets, then why bother having them at all? They are there for you to work your adjustments around.

 

4) You should log IAT and Turbo Dynamics Proportional and Integral as well as Primary WGDC so you can figure out why you're missing your target by so much. It might simply be a bad case of heatsoak. Or maybe not.

 

5) You're not off by 1 or 2 PSI. You're off by at LEAST 1.5 PSI and at some points as much as 5 PSI. That is not an insignificant amount and instead of advancing your timing, you really should be looking at this. You drive a turbo charged vehicle... you can't ignore the performance of your turbocharger.

Ehh, I'm going to have to disagree with some of this, but I will agree boost is a bit low. Also, just get rid of the D trim. Its more danger than anything.

I don't understand the reason for posting our timing maps. Comparing timing maps on different setups doesn't show anything. Timing is determined based on flame speed and piston speed. It will change between setups. Even two cars that have identical mods that fill up at the same gas station will have different timing requirements.

 

More timing doesn't always make more power. You set spark advance so you reach peak combustion chamber pressure at the proper crank angle ATDC on the power stroke. I don't know exactly what it is on a Subaru engine, but I've seen that it's usually in the range of 15-20 degrees of crank angle ATDC. If this timing advance can be reached on pump gas then you are good to go, but it usually can't at WOT.

 

Couple rules of thumb: Timing usually decreases as load increases. Timing usually increases as engine speed increases.

 

If you want to know more read Greg Banish's book Engine Management: Advanced Tuning.

On 91/92/93 pump, you'll hit the knock threshold before you pass the MBT point, once you're under a significant amount if boost. Timing varies as you stated, but not by as much as you would think. Most stage 2 cars sit within about 2* of each other, give or take. Most of the time what changes timing is the exact setup, and how well boost responds.

I don't agree with disabling Trim D, ever and here's my thoughts on why:

 

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4298782&postcount=23

 

My personal opinion is that disabling Trim D isn't a good way to do things. Instead, adjustments should be made to the tune to minimize any fluctuations in Trim D, or ANY of the trims for that matter. That's why you'll see a lot of people here saying +/-5% in any of the trims is okay.

 

Larger numbers often indicate either a hardware (vacuum/intake leak, bad gasket, MAF sensor fouled, etc.) or a tune problem (MAF sensor not scaled properly, etc.) which is why your 9% caught my eye.

 

The reason I feel that disabling Trim D isn't a good idea is because the Trims aren't just there for fuel economy reasons (targetting 14.7 AFR) but also for safety. If you have a condition (such as vacuum/intake leak) causing a lean condition in your car (which may cause knocking = not good), your ECU can learn to compensate, up to a certain point, for each trim. If you have Trim D disabled though, your car will never compensate for a problem, and thus you will run lean under moderate to heavy throttle.

 

Is this a perfect system? No, but it's better than nothing.

 

That's my thoughts on the matter at least.

What else do you disagree with? I'm not picking a fight, just want to hear from others.

 

As far as boost being a "bit" low... Here's an idea of how low it is right now. That's the boost targeted by MickeyD's stage 1 map. COULD this be the result of heatsoak? Absolutely. In fact, it's likely, being in TX and all, but here's the thing: the OP's logs don't have IAT, PWGDC, TDI, or TDP, or even total timing logged to see how it proceeds during a WOT pull.

I'm not by any means picking a fight, just adding my $.02 on disabling the D trims, I used to think like you. But here's what I noticed. 99% of the time when there was a failure, it did nothing to correct it, but it did cause swings of AFR away from where I wanted it.

 

I'll give an example - If there is some freak event that causes -4% in the D range that gets carried over, that's approx. .5 AFR points leaner than it was tuned for... Plus once the ECU is reset, its gone anyways. And that's a problem. In theory, it does exactly what you say. In reality, it causes more issues than its worth, and is more of just a crutch for people without a wideband.

 

Also, Target boost is merely a number. What if I told you I target 20psi ALL the way across my entire target boost map on my stage 2 setup set for 18 +/- 1 psi tune? Because I do.

 

I think the OP should throw a helper spring on. It does wonders for old, worn WG actuators.

 

I've attached my boost plot for my personal 05 LGT auto in about 100* IATs for reference.

Also, Target boost is merely a number. What if I told you I target 20psi ALL the way across my entire target boost map on my stage 2 setup set for 18 +/- 1 psi tune? Because I do.

Targets are there for a reason. Setting targets that are never realistically achievable is pointless. A properly setup target boost table should be achievable in at least some circumstances, and even in situations where there is heatsoak, it should come somewhat close because we have Turbo Dynamics and IAT compensation tables. Setting a target map of 18 the entire way is a bit silly IMHO (no offense) because 1) you'll never actually achieve 18 the whole way 2) you'll be riding your Max WGDC limits 3) you'll be maxing out on TD 4) you'll be running your turbo out of its efficiency range.

 

Anyway, the OP isn't even close. He's off by over 25%. Either his targets are unrealistic (they're not) or there's something else going on, whether it be heatsoak or some other issue.

 

Again, he doesn't even log IAT or PWGDC.

 

I think the OP should throw a helper spring on. It does wonders for old, worn WG actuators.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here but I don't know how you can even suggest this without logging at least some of the parameters I mentioned.

 

I've attached my boost plot for my personal 05 LGT auto in about 100* IATs for reference.

And here's my own from last summer in NYC when it was about 85-90 outside. IAT drops quickly once the car gets moving, but IAT was at about 106 from heatsoaking in traffic. I didn't get to do a full pull to redline. I logged and tuned all summer on my car and the trend was the same even when my IAT read 150F+ from REALLY heatsoaking and having an ambient outside temperature of 100F. Slower spool, still within the targets.

 

Again, there's a IAT WGDC compensation table there. For whatever reason, Subaru decided to have 0s at everything 68 and higher which works fine when winter hits and you need less, but does nothing for when the summer hits.

high-iat.csv

I look at boost tuning different. The sad thing is people don't realize boost changes per gear. TD is really virtually useless to a decently set up boost map. People will spend sooo long getting their 3rd gear boost perfect, only to realize in higher gears it runs like dirt. You wont run the turbo out of its efficiency range, I have yet to do that actually... It actually works beautifully. You'll realize that air temp has more effect on airflow than a .5 psi variance. Who cares about a 1 psi variance at most (with IAT comps in place)? It makes such a small difference in the scheme of things.

 

Your way isn't wrong, I just have tried tons of boost mappings and styles on many different subarus, and this has worked the best/smoothest of all.

I run through all my gears to check their performance and I also check for spikes under various conditions (uphill, downhill, WOT/off/WOT to "prime" the turbo) etc. I have to disagree with you about TD being useless. Without per gear tuning (such as on my car) properly setup TDP and TDI is a necessity.

And again, he's not off by 1 PSI, which would be fine. He's off by 5.

 

edit: We can't tell exactly why but it should be looked into and certainly he shouldn't just be adding timing in all over the place because well, he's running so much less boost right now that it's probably why he can advance the timing without knock.

Again, I don't think TD is a necessity. You definitely have a good point from how you see it, and some people like it, but I'm just one who it hasn't been impressed by it, and have had better/smoother/tighter response without it.

 

And yes, he is low on boost. I doubt that's heat soak, but its worth a shot. If his WGDC is decent, there's a mechanical issue.