Koni yellows and epic springs vs. ISC street comfort coilovers

I got an 05 legacy 2.5i and looking do suspension on it. My front struts are shot (oil leaking out of them). I just got a set of Rota G-Force 17x8 along with Continental DW's in 245/40-17's. Which I will put on in a few weeks once the weather is nice out. I'm in NYC so the roads here are pretty $hitty.

Not looking to drop more than 1" or so.

I'm stuck between Koni yellow mated to Epic springs and the ISC street comfort coilovers.

I will not autox or drag race the car, basically just daily driving with some weekend spirited driving if I get a chance.

Can I use the Legacy GT Epic springs on the 2.5i? I don't see a specific part for the 2.5i.

Basically I'm looking for a slightly lower stance while still maintaining a somewhat decent ride. I've read quite a few complains about the ISC coilovers making clunking noises but it seemed that most complains were due to improper settings or just plain bad shocks out of the box.

I got an 05 legacy 2.5i and looking do suspension on it. My front struts are shot (oil leaking out of them). I just got a set of Rota G-Force 17x8 along with Continental DW's in 245/40-17's. Which I will put on in a few weeks once the weather is nice out. I'm in NYC so the roads here are pretty $hitty.

Not looking to drop more than 1" or so.

 

I'm stuck between Koni yellow mated to Epic springs and the ISC street comfort coilovers.

 

I will not autox or drag race the car, basically just daily driving with some weekend spirited driving if I get a chance.

 

Can I use the Legacy GT Epic springs on the 2.5i? I don't see a specific part for the 2.5i.

 

Basically I'm looking for a slightly lower stance while still maintaining a somewhat decent ride. I've read quite a few complains about the ISC coilovers making clunking noises but it seemed that most complains were due to improper settings or just plain bad shocks out of the box.

I'm from NYC/NNJ as well and you will be much happier with the Konis and Epics. Coilovers in our area suck and you won't be happy.

Not sure if you plan to do em yourself but shoot us an email and we will be happy to help to do the install and help decide what route to go.

-Mike Paisan

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You realize that you're comparing one end of the damping quality spectrum to the other eh?

Are the dampers even on the same spectrum?

-Mike Paisan

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Good choice. Let us know if we can help with purchase and/or install.

-Mike Paisan

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Good decision. People need to realize that the ONLY acceptable application for sub-$1500 coilovers is adjustable ride height for "stance" applications so you can take some hell-fresh pictures of your hellaflush, hell-useless ride.

If you must dictate exactly how your car's stance turns out, and you either never intend to drive it, or don't care how it drives, then BC/Megan/ISC are an excellent choice. Honestly though, I wouldn't feel safe at all in a car with those coils going freeway speeds, or doing any sort of spirited driving.

Good decision. People need to realize that the ONLY acceptable application for sub-$1500 coilovers is adjustable ride height for "stance" applications so you can take some hell-fresh pictures of your hellaflush, hell-useless ride.

 

If you must dictate exactly how your car's stance turns out, and you either never intend to drive it, or don't care how it drives, then BC/Megan/ISC are an excellent choice. Honestly though, I wouldn't feel safe at all in a car with those coils going freeway speeds, or doing any sort of spirited driving.

100% I have been preaching this for a while now. If you need your car to be a certain height for show/parking lot chat reasons. That's what a sub 1500 coil will do for you.

-Mike Paisan

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"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

^ I contend that an autocrosser or occasional track racer can get good value out of cheapy coils as well. Areas that you don't need a good ride or are willing to sacrifice ride for handling. I think they're probably solid enough that they are safe on the car. They just don't have the same quality and better fluids and tuning of more expensive coils.

I would argue with you. As an avid autoxer tracker track instructor and road racer, I would argue that a set of Konis w/spring will out perform a set of cheap coilovers every day of the week. If you look at the sock dyno charts for the cheapo coils, after the initial hits they drop off drastically in terms of dampening. On the road course you are putting significant cycles on them even in a novice run group.

-Mike Paisan

http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/145749898/original.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/logos/perf1.jpg

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I would argue with you. As an avid autoxer tracker track instructor and road racer, I would argue that a set of Konis w/spring will out perform a set of cheap coilovers every day of the week. If you look at the sock dyno charts for the cheapo coils, after the initial hits they drop off drastically in terms of dampening. On the road course you are putting significant cycles on them even in a novice run group.

I will admit that most of my opinion on this topic comes from my extremely limited experience on the street on the ISCs. I have never had my wagon on an autox run or on a track for that matter.

What I think I noticed (on the street) is that there is a fair bit more body roll in the wagon on the koni/epic combo than there was on the ISCs (Street Sport). I felt like I could take a hard turn faster on the ISCs than on the epics (again, on the street at probably nowhere near the true limit of grip).

Of course, this is all just butt dyno measurements and imagined suspension statistics in the head of a fairly inexperienced enthusiast with no real world data and no race experience to back it up. But I think body roll was better and steering response was better on the cheap coils. Is that just my imagination? Absolutely possible. But the best I can do is report what I think.

Are those two factors enough to make a better overall race suspension? I sort of think that possibility exists, but I'm willing to defer to the experts on this point (on any point really).

Thanks for posting Mike. I always feel like I learn something whenever I come across your posts. What exactly are you referring to when you are talking about a dampening dropoff on the cheap coils? Is it the fact that the car spends more time bouncing on the suspension (dampening takes more cycles to level out) and therefore more total time with the car unweighted a bit (i.e. rebounding up away from the ground), thus losing a bit of overall grip where less grip = slower lap times? Can you clarify a bit more?

I will admit that most of my opinion on this topic comes from my extremely limited experience on the street on the ISCs. I have never had my wagon on an autox run or on a track for that matter.

 

What I think I noticed (on the street) is that there is a fair bit more body roll in the wagon on the koni/epic combo than there was on the ISCs (Street Sport). I felt like I could take a hard turn faster on the ISCs than on the epics (again, on the street at probably nowhere near the true limit of grip).

 

Of course, this is all just butt dyno measurements and imagined suspension statistics in the head of a fairly inexperienced enthusiast with no real world data and no race experience to back it up. But I think body roll was better and steering response was better on the cheap coils. Is that just my imagination? Absolutely possible. But the best I can do is report what I think.

 

Are those two factors enough to make a better overall race suspension? I sort of think that possibility exists, but I'm willing to defer to the experts on this point (on any point really).

 

Thanks for posting Mike. I always feel like I learn something whenever I come across your posts. What exactly are you referring to when you are talking about a dampening dropoff on the cheap coils? Is it the fact that the car spends more time bouncing on the suspension (dampening takes more cycles to level out) and therefore more total time with the car unweighted a bit (i.e. rebounding up away from the ground), thus losing a bit of overall grip where less grip = slower lap times? Can you clarify a bit more?

Thanks for the compliment, I really appreciate it as it makes my efforts to get info out there seem worth it that people are actually listening and appreciating it.

Generally speaking it is cheaper for a manufacturer to produce a stiffer spring than to produce a well sort out damper. So to compensate for the inferior dampening they put on super stiff springs. This leads to "less body roll" which basically you get from those super stiff springs. Heck if you welded in solid rods you would have no body roll at all.

A good setup actually will allow wheel travel so that when bumps are encountered, especially those found on the STREET, the tire will stay in contact (or in the most contact) with the road.

This also brings up another point with any coilovers, be them expensive high end ones or the lowest end crappy ones. Setup and testing is imperative to get them to work properly. One can't just slap em on set the height to their liking and be on their way. I have a friend with a $120,000 Porsche Caymen S PDK road race car. They bought for $60k and put $60k in modifications to make it a race car. They are running Motons in it and every time they hit the curbing on Thunderbolt raceway at NJMP, the car would go into limp mode. They brought in the best tuners, ecu guys, wheel bearing guys, abs guys, etc. No one could fix the problem. I was brought in and we decided to raise the car up a bit. We felt that due to it being low there wasn't enough movement of the springs and dampers and it was lifting a wheel causing overspeed in that wheel which in turn threw off the ECU. Sure enough once we raised it up slightly so that the springs and dampers could keep the tires on the pavement, no more limp mode. Was there more body roll? You betcha. Was he able to drive the car faster? You betcha.

So the moral of the story is that your suspension is there to keep the tires in contact with the pavement, so you want a more compliant set of springs and dampers rather than one that "feels" like it has less body roll.

As far as the shock dyno, basically your dampers can only dampen the springs properly if they can "push" back and level out the car after being compressed. On cheaper dampers, the have a strong push for the first compression, but then dramatically drop off and don't provide that push. Stiffer springs compensate for this but then don't compress/expand as easily thus leading to lifting a tire. Additionally, the clicks or turns of most lower end dampers are not proportional to how much you turn them. For example, click 1-2 does not represent the same difference as click 2-3 does and so forth. Lastly unless you are dynoing your dampers, your left and right may not match at all. This means that your 1 click on the left side won't be the same as your 1 click on the right side.

Hope this info helps clear up some of the myths and misconceptions of coilovers.

-mike

^ I think you're saying you want the suspension to rebound and bounce to keep the tire on the road (pushing the wheel away from the car and down to the road surface as much as possible). Not bounce the car. The more the center of gravity stays down (doesn't lift the car off the ground any higher), the more grip you have. Stiffer suspension over an uneven surface bumps the whole car more.

I feel like a smooth track should not be inducing as much suspension travel due to the road surface. Therefore, it seems to me that body roll matters more than individual coil compression travel on a track. Obviously, this is less true in a parking lot for autox. Am I overestimating the surface quality of a race track that I've never driven on? Are there more bumps than I would assume? Or are tracks generally pretty glass smooth and spring compression and rebound are more of a factor than I think when going around a turn?

They generally don't have sharp potholes but they are definitely not glass smooth. There are plenty of dips and hills and bumps. Hitting the apex curbing also effects the car as well. By using the curbing you can go faster through a turn because you increase the radius of the turn. I love taking track walks with my students for this reason. They get to see just how not smooth a section of the track is.

-Mike Paisan

http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/145749898/original.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/logos/perf1.jpg

11+ Years Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Subaru Enthusiasts.

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It's not how little body roll you have mid-corner. It's what happens when you hit a bump mid-corner.

probably not very good when it comes to handling and comfort but koni/stechs probably look good

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