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All Seasons that don't have soft sidewall?


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Hello, I was wondering if anyone has experience with:

 

Ziex 912

ContiExtremeContacts

Kuhmo AST

 

and could comment on which one of these tires has the stiffest sidewall? For me, sharp turn-in is part and parcel of an enjoyable driving experience and while I realize any all-season tire won't be as good as a sticky summer tire, I'd like not to feel like I'm riding on balloons.

 

If there are other tires I should look at, please suggest! Thank you!

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Move up to a current ultra high performance tire? (RE960, Goodyear F1 All-season?). Conti Extremes are marketed ultra high performance but really are decent high performance tires with a bias for winter and high speed rating.
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Goodyear Eagle F1 A/S....they have a carbon fiber reinforced sidewall..i put some on back in january and love em....great turn in and good traction wet and dry for an A/S

 

How many miles do you have on your Goodyear Eagle F1 All-season tires? The major complaints I've seen for them is they get very noisey as the miles accumulate and they don't last that long. Both complaints seem to be common for directional tread, ultra high performance, all-season tires.

 

I always laugh when I see people complaining about snow or ice traction of an all-season tire. All-season tires are not meant as a substitute for snow tires. All-season tires are designed to work over a wider temperature range than summer tires which get very hard as the temperature goes down. An all-season tire is a compromise tire that will never be as good in extreme temperatures as a dedicated summer or winter tire. But they can be quite good within their design parameters and helpful to those of us who can't afford two sets of tires.

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How many miles do you have on your Goodyear Eagle F1 All-season tires? The major complaints I've seen for them is they get very noisey as the miles accumulate and they don't last that long. Both complaints seem to be common for directional tread, ultra high performance, all-season tires.

 

I always laugh when I see people complaining about snow or ice traction of an all-season tire. All-season tires are not meant as a substitute for snow tires. All-season tires are designed to work over a wider temperature range than summer tires which get very hard as the temperature goes down. An all-season tire is a compromise tire that will never be as good in extreme temperatures as a dedicated summer or winter tire. But they can be quite good within their design parameters and helpful to those of us who can't afford two sets of tires.

 

The vast, vast majority of people who drive cars do not swap out winter tires for summer tires and vice versa. They use one set of tires 365 days of the year: all-seasons. Millions of people commute every day through snow, ice, and rain on all-seasons and there is nothing wrong with expecting decent snow performance out of an AS tire.

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Ironically, I just bought an AWD car (the LGT) and decided for the first time I'm going to do it right with this car....dedicated set of snows and summers. It's worth it when you plan on keeping a car for 100,000 miles or more.

 

All-seasons with a good sidewall - Falken Ziex 912 (not 512). I think Kumho ASX has a decent sidewall...not soft or hard, pretty nice mix. Pirelli P-Zero Nero M+S is supposed to have a superb sidewall (i.e. somehow mixes a very stiff sidewall with great ride comfort).

 

Joe

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  • 5 weeks later...
The vast, vast majority of people who drive cars do not swap out winter tires for summer tires and vice versa. They use one set of tires 365 days of the year: all-seasons. Millions of people commute every day through snow, ice, and rain on all-seasons and there is nothing wrong with expecting decent snow performance out of an AS tire.

 

I would agree with you, except for 1 small caveat; the vast majority of people who live in snowy climates and do not switch out summer and winter tires also likely do not run Ultra High Performance all-seasons on their cars....they likely run basic, R-rated all-season tires, which are a night-and-day difference from a Performance-based all-season.

 

R-rated all seasons in general are geared towards comfort, are not designed to hold up under high speeds (e.g., high temperatures) and therefore can be made of softer, more pliable rubber compounds and less stiff casings/sidewalls which just so happen to be desirable characteristics for a tire in wintery conditions.

 

Problem is, we can't run R-rated all-seasons on our cars...nor would you want to ;)

 

Tim

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I think that the solution is entirely dependent on the type of weather that you'll see. My car really performs differently based on the conditions and tires{and tire pressure}. Not unlike a long series of AWD sport wagons that I've owned over the years.

 

I live just north of Boston on the coast. I also have to drive throughout northern New England and upstate NY during the winter. That really puts me in two climate zones. For example, it will be 65 in Boston tomorrow, while it could easily be in the 20's and snowing up north. The optimal solution for me would be to have three sets of rims and tires: real summer tires, a dedicated snow, and a performance all season for the time of the year when it gets too cold up north for the summer tires, might get an early snow storm etc.

 

But, there's no way that I was going to buy three sets. My choice was to commit to a winter snow tire first. I went with Nokian RSI's, mounted on the OEM rims. They are incredible winter snow tires. There are days when I curse having them on the car, on dry warm winter days, but they work in the worst, which was a requirement for me. And they really aren't that bad on the dry. They just need to come off the car when it gets too warm.

 

For my other tires, which are mid-April to Mid-November, I bought Potenza RE960AS's. Mounted on BBS RK 17 X 7" rims. I've had them on the car for about 12K miles. Likewise, there are days in the summer when I really wish that I had a real summer tire. But not too many. They perform pretty well on the dry, and are good in the rain. A bit noisy, but not awful. In the cold that I've driven in this fall up north {no colder than 25 degrees}, they seem to be just fine. I haven't really tested them in the cold. I've been caught in a little bit of snow. A couple of inches, twice. They were OK. They are no snow tire, but they felt to me as though they steered and stopped pretty well. This was slushy, wet snow. I suspect that they would be no match whatsover for the Nokian RSI's on real ice, hardpack or deep snow. They shouldn't be.

 

In my search for the A/S solution, I wanted to lean toward a tire that would perform as closely as possible to a decent summer tire in the summer, and give me some level of trust and comfort before my real winter. The RE960's are delivering there. I wanted an A/S that leaned toward being more of a summer performance tire. The other tire that I was close to buying was the F1 A/S.

 

The other option which I really weighed was to go with a summer tire, and then run a Nokian WR from mid-October through about the first of May. I came close to that one. I would have had a touch better tire for the summer, but I would have had a bit less performance IMO in the shoulder seasons. In all but the worst snow and winter stuff, the WR's would be fine.

 

In my opinion, any all season tire is a compromise. It won't perform as well as a tire designed for specific use in the snow. If you want one with a stiff sidewall, that construction and the rubber compounds used might make it a bit more slippery than some other A/S tires. I'd look at some other than the RE960's if I had to pick one tire for my actual use. Probably would look something like the Conti's. Maybe even a Grid G019, which is absolutely no performance tire, but is a real A/S tire. Some others swear by a Nokian WR {or the sucessor tire} as a year round tire. My own opinion is that it might work on an H6 Outback, but not so well on a LGT.

 

But if the snow and winter was pretty occasional, not prolonged, and I was able to wait out storms and hold off for plowing, etc. I think the RE960's would be a decent choice.

 

Depends, I think on how severe your winter may be. Good luck. I agonize over this stuff.

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I think that the solution is entirely dependent on the type of weather that you'll see. My car really performs differently based on the conditions and tires{and tire pressure}. Not unlike a long series of AWD sport wagons that I've owned over the years.

 

I live just north of Boston on the coast. I also have to drive throughout northern New England and upstate NY during the winter. That really puts me in two climate zones. For example, it will be 65 in Boston tomorrow, while it could easily be in the 20's and snowing up north. The optimal solution for me would be to have three sets of rims and tires: real summer tires, a dedicated snow, and a performance all season for the time of the year when it gets too cold up north for the summer tires, might get an early snow storm etc.

 

But, there's no way that I was going to buy three sets. My choice was to commit to a winter snow tire first. I went with Nokian RSI's, mounted on the OEM rims. They are incredible winter snow tires. There are days when I curse having them on the car, on dry warm winter days, but they work in the worst, which was a requirement for me. And they really aren't that bad on the dry. They just need to come off the car when it gets too warm.

 

For my other tires, which are mid-April to Mid-November, I bought Potenza RE960AS's. Mounted on BBS RK 17 X 7" rims. I've had them on the car for about 12K miles. Likewise, there are days in the summer when I really wish that I had a real summer tire. But not too many. They perform pretty well on the dry, and are good in the rain. A bit noisy, but not awful. In the cold that I've driven in this fall up north {no colder than 25 degrees}, they seem to be just fine. I haven't really tested them in the cold. I've been caught in a little bit of snow. A couple of inches, twice. They were OK. They are no snow tire, but they felt to me as though they steered and stopped pretty well. This was slushy, wet snow. I suspect that they would be no match whatsover for the Nokian RSI's on real ice, hardpack or deep snow. They shouldn't be.

 

In my search for the A/S solution, I wanted to lean toward a tire that would perform as closely as possible to a decent summer tire in the summer, and give me some level of trust and comfort before my real winter. The RE960's are delivering there. I wanted an A/S that leaned toward being more of a summer performance tire. The other tire that I was close to buying was the F1 A/S.

 

The other option which I really weighed was to go with a summer tire, and then run a Nokian WR from mid-October through about the first of May. I came close to that one. I would have had a touch better tire for the summer, but I would have had a bit less performance IMO in the shoulder seasons. In all but the worst snow and winter stuff, the WR's would be fine.

 

In my opinion, any all season tire is a compromise. It won't perform as well as a tire designed for specific use in the snow. If you want one with a stiff sidewall, that construction and the rubber compounds used might make it a bit more slippery than some other A/S tires. I'd look at some other than the RE960's if I had to pick one tire for my actual use. Probably would look something like the Conti's. Maybe even a Grid G019, which is absolutely no performance tire, but is a real A/S tire. Some others swear by a Nokian WR {or the sucessor tire} as a year round tire. My own opinion is that it might work on an H6 Outback, but not so well on a LGT.

 

But if the snow and winter was pretty occasional, not prolonged, and I was able to wait out storms and hold off for plowing, etc. I think the RE960's would be a decent choice.

 

Depends, I think on how severe your winter may be. Good luck. I agonize over this stuff.

 

Hey Muleski-

 

Some good comments and observations. Glad to hear I'm not the only one who "agonizes" over these kinds of decisions! :lol: Let's face it, if a good set of tires only ran around $200, I know I'd be more open-minded to just trying them out myself rather than relying more on other peoples' opinions--and if I didn't like 'em, I'd toss them or try to sell them. But being that you're dishing out between $500 (best case) and $1000 (worst case--otherwise known as "the quote I got for a set of WR-G2's"), choosing tires feels a lot like getting married to them...and being stuck with them for the "long haul" ;)

 

I agree that most any type of tire comes with some sets of compromises. For me, being in a job which allows me more flexibility in working from home when needed, I just need to come to terms with the concept that if the roads are awful, I don't need to go out on them. Period. I guess the memory of having to be out in terrible winter conditions with an inadequate set of tires under difficult circumstances tends to stick with you, and often dictates your emotions when looking at tire choices long afterward.

 

I was also looking at the "one tire" solution in the Eagle F1 All-Season, but was scared off by the growing number of complaints about road noise (I can live with my noisey studded snows for 3 months...but not 12 months). This led me to consider the Yoko ADVAN S4's (still a contender if I go the "all-season" route) or possibly even the Michelin PS A/S (which I have 3-season familiarity with on my old 7 Series). Truth be told, either of those 3 tires would **probably** be manageable for the winter severity we see in NJ nowadays.

 

My "impractical" side is telling me to get a set of WinterSport M3's on my steelies for around $120/each, and figure out how to affort another set of 3 season tires in the spring, but....(the "big but") I have baby #2 due in a couple of weeks, so I may be buying NOTHING and just sucking-it-up on my WinterForce M+S (which have the sipes and studs worn out) for yet another winter. Bleck, I hate being poor..... :lol:

 

Cheers,

Tim

 

ps: forgot to add that a strong "all season" contender for me was the ContiExtreme, 'till I realized they don't come in any size even close to 225/55-17 (or any close variation), HOWEVER, they do come in both 215/60 and 225/60-16 which would fit my steelies. Then again, how much sense does it make to lay-out $91/each for an "all season" to be used as a dedicated winter tire. Ok, I'm giving myself a headache now..... ;)

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Excellent posts!

 

My problem is this: the Kansas City area has perhaps 1-3 weeks worth of snow that actually sticks to the roads and creates dangerous driving conditions.

 

I have RE92's now. Are those RE92s awful enough to make it dangerous to drive those 1-3 weeks on snow? Do I need a better AS tire? It seems silly for me to buy a winter tire for only a few weeks worth of snow.

 

My inclination is to tough it out through that week or two of snow with the RE92 tires and keep some summer tires on another set of wheels.

 

UNLESS the wisdom of this forum thinks that even a few weeks on RE92 tires in the snow each year is too much.

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Excellent posts!

 

My problem is this: the Kansas City area has perhaps 1-3 weeks worth of snow that actually sticks to the roads and creates dangerous driving conditions.

 

I have RE92's now. Are those RE92s awful enough to make it dangerous to drive those 1-3 weeks on snow? Do I need a better AS tire? It seems silly for me to buy a winter tire for only a few weeks worth of snow.

 

My inclination is to tough it out through that week or two of snow with the RE92 tires and keep some summer tires on another set of wheels.

 

UNLESS the wisdom of this forum thinks that even a few weeks on RE92 tires in the snow each year is too much.

 

Personally, I would say that the decision of whether you need a better AS tire now should depend on whether or not you find the traction of the RE92's acceptable overall enough to continue running them 'till they're gone. The RE92A's which our cars came with were a harder rubber to begin with--primarily to address the poor tire wear of the previous version RE92 and to help with fuel economy. The downside is, they're a really hard rubber which doesn't grip well in wet weather, and gets even harder when it gets cold outside (and even worse when they're in snow/ice).

 

I actually ran mine 'till they were worn out (got 41k on them too somehow) but I also had dedicated winter tires/rims to use when it got slippery out. I did try the RE92's in the snow once and did not like them at all for the aforementioned reasons.

 

Obviously, all it takes to ruin your car (and possibly your life--lord forbid) is losing traction once at the wrong time, but I know a lot of people who've put up with the poor wet and terrible snow/ice handling of the RE92's until it was time to replace them. I think it comes down to a combination of A.) how your weather will be (and if you're able to stay home when its really dangerous) and B.) what amount you're willing to leave to "chance"--and at what cost(s).

 

Just my two cents. Hope it helps :)

Tim

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I have been alternating between GY F1 GSD3s in the spring, summer, early fall and Nokian WRs in the late fall and winter. This has worked very well. The WRs are, IMHO, a terrific tire and handle very well in the snow and in dry conditions. In dry conditions, there is only a small downgrade from the F1s.

 

I had the ContiExtremes on a previous Subie and liked them very much as well.

05 SWP Legacy GT Limited (aka "Pearl")- 5MT AP - Stage 2 Protuned (238/284) - wife driven

07 BMW 335xi

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I love my Contiextreme contacts. Awesome AS tire, but you need to inflate a little higher to about 40/38

 

I just had conti extremes (225/40/18) put on today. Not a lot of useful data here yet, but they did feel pretty nice coming home.

 

Why do you recommend 40/38? I haven't checked the tire pressure yet, but assume they're all right around 32-34.

 

EDIT: just checked and the dealer set them all to 38 it seems.

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It does help, Tim. You highlight the fact you're basically gambling with your safety driving on the RE92's in the cold and that's enough to sell me. :)

 

Thanks.

 

Good deal!

 

Any thoughts on what tires you may look at? Been a lot of good discussions around here lately on winter and all-season tire options....

 

Keep us posted ;)

 

Tim

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