Brakes less effective with age

I'm finding the brakes in my car are less effective with age. Even when i replace pads/rotors and have the brakes bled, they just don';t have the bite/grab that I expect.

 

I rented a car this week and the difference in how much the brakes bite in the newer cars is starling.

 

I used to think my 2005 was ok and my wife's '01 was soft and took a lot of pedal travel and pedal pressure to get any braking effort. Now, a few years later, my '05 is in the same position.

 

Had the dealership flush and bleed the brake fluid, no difference. Tried Hawk HPS rotors/pads, standard rotors/pads etc - no difference.

 

All I can think is either the master cylinder is not sealing well, or the vacuum booster is not working fully.

 

Have tested the one-way valve on the boost, and the big hose from the engine to the booster, both ok and hold vacuum. The rubber gasket around the one-way valve has no visible problems.

 

With the engine running I get a lot of pedal creep if I just press the pedal and keep pressing it. With the engine off it firms after 2-3 presses and has no creep.

 

I took the car to Subaru and they said; "It's normal, it's not new car". Well, ok, right. How do I make it brake like when it WAS a new car? New boost and MC?

Ive noticed the same thing. is this gen legacy susceptible to "firewall flex" like some WRXs were?

Have you inspected the brake hoses? As they age, they can start to break down and swell under braking pressure, leading to what you describe. I replaced mine with stainless steel lines, and the difference was noticeable. Not dramatic, but there was an improvement.

 

Other than that, the Legacy just doesn't have a "grabby" brake system like many newer vehicles do. I think much of it has to do with the pedal ratio an booster tuning, leading to a softer pedal feel before you get into the hard decel. With that being said, I've never had an issue with panic stops in my Legacy when necessary. The stopping power has always been very good.

Check/replace rubber lines. Get a master cylinder brace from Grimmspeed too! They firm up the pedal for sure. If that doesn't work enough for you...Brembos will do the trick !

My wagon is as good as my Spec B. both have original brake lines.

 

You may want to have the vacuum system tested ?

 

Did you try rebedding the brakes ?

 

I find I need to do something like that every now and then after driving in stop and go traffic.

Did you try rebedding the brakes ?

 

This is a good point. I've found this to help "reset" the brakes after many stop-and-go miles.

When was the last time you had the fluid flushed if ever? That's the first and most cost effective way to see where you are at. Often once you do that you will notice the brakes are back to normal.

 

Also is it more pushing you need? or do the pads not seem to grip? What pads are you using? how many miles on them?

 

-Mike Paisan

 

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Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.

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I am experiencing the same thing. I have had fluid replaced, pads, rotors and replaced with SS lines and still very little improvement if any. Just a kinda mushy feel and pedal drop ... what next?

Alot of people like the STi MC and BB swap. .

I am experiencing the same thing. I have had fluid replaced, pads, rotors and replaced with SS lines and still very little improvement if any. Just a kinda mushy feel and pedal drop ... what next?

 

Interesting. It could be the flush/bleed that may not have gotten all the air out.

 

We've also seen the Master and Slave cylinder seals begin to leak over time.

 

What pads are you running?

 

I see you are in queens, if you wanted to come over to have it checked out, I'm sure that our guys could give you some more insight into why it doesn't feel as good as when the car was newer.

 

-Mike Paisan

 

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Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.

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Alot of people like the STi MC and BB swap. .

 

Neither of those should be needed to bring it back to stock levels.

 

-Mike Paisan

 

http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/153798190.jpg

Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.

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"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

Neither of those should be needed to bring it back to stock levels.

 

-Mike Paisan

 

http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/153798190.jpg

Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.

Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) |AIM: AZP Installs

"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

 

You're right, but. . . Why not upgrade?

You're right, but. . . Why not upgrade?

 

Lots of reasons...

 

BBK requires bigger rims.

BBK requires bigger more expensive rotors.

There are lots of way to get "better" braking without going to a BBK. Better pads are one of the best ways.

 

We like to take the more budget minded approach to upgrades and steer our customers that way too.

 

-Mike Paisan

 

http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/153798190.jpg

Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.

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"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

Lots of reasons...

 

BBK requires bigger rims.

BBK requires bigger more expensive rotors.

There are lots of way to get "better" braking without going to a BBK. Better pads are one of the best ways.

 

We like to take the more budget minded approach to upgrades and steer our customers that way too.

 

-Mike Paisan

 

http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/153798190.jpg

Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.

Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) |AIM: AZP Installs

"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

 

You didn't click the link -- that's maybe $300 in NEW OEM parts, less if found used from a JY. BB was Brake Booster, not BBK, or Big Brake Kit.

 

I would never recommend a $2k brake upgrade to anyone. Very few folks here actually need it, despite the number of folks who have them.

When the 4th generation LGT was introduced, the most common complaint on the forums was "these brakes suck".

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/legacy-brakes-suck-47786.html?t=47786&highlight=suck

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/some-lgt-brakes-sucki-33136.html?t=33136&highlight=suck

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/brake-still-ugrrr-sucki-121061.html?t=121061&highlight=suck

……..With the engine running I get a lot of pedal creep if I just press the pedal and keep pressing it…...

 

The maximum allowable travel in the brake pedal, with the engine idling, and a 112 lb load applied to the pedal, is 90mm. Measure the travel with reference to the steering wheel. Does your car pass that test?

 

There are several other simple tests that you can do. They can be found in the FSM.

You didn't click the link -- that's maybe $300 in NEW OEM parts, less if found used from a JY. BB was Brake Booster, not BBK, or Big Brake Kit.

 

I would never recommend a $2k brake upgrade to anyone. Very few folks here actually need it, despite the number of folks who have them.

 

Haaa, thats what I get for not realizing there was a link there (didn't come up as a link on my screen)! Brake Booster is a good idea for sure.

 

-Mike Paisan

 

http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/153798190.jpg

Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.

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"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

I am experiencing the same thing. I have had fluid replaced, pads, rotors and replaced with SS lines and still very little improvement if any. Just a kinda mushy feel and pedal drop ... what next?

 

 

Go re-bed the brakes, then, when you feel like the brakes aren't where you want them, just brake late and hard on the off ramp.

 

 

After the drive down Mt Washington, the brakes felt great. Then over time in stop and go traffic...they feel crappy. Just get them hot, all's better.

The oem pads were bad. The first upgrade I did was to replace the oem pads with Hawk HPS pads. A bedding session later (you have to get them hot to bed them down), the brakes were much better.

 

If you require brakes to be fully functional in the first inch, you're going to be disappointed regardless what you do. Properly using the brakes is 60% effort immediately increasing to 100% and tapering back to 0% as you reach full stop. The HPS pads actually reinforce this behaviour, tho the initial press after not using them for awhile can be disconcerting.

Properly using the brakes is 60% effort immediately increasing to 100% and tapering back to 0% as you reach full stop. The HPS pads actually reinforce this behaviour, tho the initial press after not using them for awhile can be disconcerting.

 

Are you talking street or track?

 

The LGT seems to have a pretty low force vs. travel curve, at least in the beginning of the pedal movement. This means you will get more pedal travel before you feel like the brake start to build pressure and "bite" in. Some of this is pedal ratio, most of it is booster/system tuning. Fact is, as boxkita stated, the LGT system is just not instantly grabby, no matter what you do. For many people, they consider this behavior to be "mushy" brakes and think they are poor performing. Many new cars have a very quick jump-in and very high force vs. travel curve, so you get immediate decel response right after stepping on the pedal.

 

I still maintain, with a properly working system and some decent pads, the LGT has never left me with a situation where I felt the braking power was lacking. I'm talking street here. Thermal management on the track is another topic altogether.

I ran stock calipers on the track and never had an issue, except once. 130 to 10, foot flat on the floor, race slicks smoking panic stop to avoid a car that spun in front of me. The brake fluid boiled and brakes were useless. However, after changing the fluid they were fine again.

 

Hawk HPS pads with centric premium disks with good brake fluid with stainless lines was enough for a number of years. The s/s lines were to replace the end-of-life oem and for safety on track. For track days, Hawk DTC-60/70 with centric premium disks with RBF600 brake fluid were good for a weekend or two of tracking. If I would have changed anything, I would have installed brake ducts to cool the front rotors & disks, as a typical 30 minute track session had the disks at 1600 degrees...

I thought this too when my brakes were due a few weeks ago. I bled the whole system using the Subaru "pattern" FR-RL-FL-RR. I noted that bubbles came out of the last brake cylinder I did. I'm not sure if the bleed pattern "forces" the bubbles out that way, but there is a noticeable improvement in braking now, it grabs early and doesn't go as far down. Without question there was air in the system. I used about a litre of brake fluid to flush through, which is quite a lot.

Hawk HPS pads with centric premium disks with good brake fluid with stainless lines was enough for a number of years. The s/s lines were to replace the end-of-life oem and for safety on track. For track days...

 

This is the set-up I'm currently using. Haven't had it one the track, and wouldn't expect the pads to hold up for long, but the street performance is really good.

If you require brakes to be fully functional in the first inch, you're going to be disappointed regardless what you do. Properly using the brakes is 60% effort immediately increasing to 100% and tapering back to 0% as you reach full stop. The HPS pads actually reinforce this behaviour, tho the initial press after not using them for awhile can be disconcerting.

 

 

 

I'll have to agree with that. Thinking about how my DD goes and what happens to the brakes after a while of not braking hard...Ithink your on to something.

I noticed my girlfriend's 08 Outback 2.5i had more responsive feel than my LGT. In the process of redoing my brakes with all New Stop-Tech Rotors and Pads, not only did I shear off one of the rusted Caliper Bracket Bolts, (seems common on these) I found that 2 of my caliper slider bolts (one on each front side) were basically "frozen" and not moving. Therefore the caliper was essentially clamping at an angle and not parallel to the rotor. After lots of battling and cussing and swearing I was able to get these caliper slider bolts out and clean them up and re-lube them. My brakes have that new car feel now, very happy with how it all turned out. Originally did the brakes because I didn't like the rusty crusty OEM rotors. This car came from one of the rust states. If you have never checked them your calipers slider bolts should move relatively free, check them, kits are available to replace them and the rubber boots, but they can be cleaned up and reused if they are in good shape.