Did some datalogging...

Here are a few logs that i did...

How does it look? Thanks for your input

 

Stock turbo

Stock Fueling (in the market for a pump, again)

Bp'd TMIC

AEM Dryflow drop in panel filter

GFB fully recirc BPV

Grimmspeed 3 port EBCS

Cobb Accessport v3 tuned by STi Mikey

Perrin ELH

Invidia Catless DP

Invidia Q300 v3

lgtlog1.csv

lgtlog2.csv

lgtlog3.csv

I don't like what I see.

 

1) You're running a low amount of timing. Dips into single digits.

 

2) Your boost error is large but the amount of boost you're actually hitting seems to be about right, give or take a little. This suggests that your boost targets are set unrealistically high.

 

3) Your WGDC is locked at 53.33% for some reason, and I have no idea why.

 

4) You had a tiny bit of FBKC in your first log but not in the other 2, might just be a blip but I'd keep an eye on it.

Looks good. Nice tune there. Timing is a bit conservative, but very smooth. Your boost is also smooth despite any boost error.

Needs some more timing - watch the knock.

I don't like what I see.

 

1) You're running a low amount of timing. Dips into single digits.

 

2) Your boost error is large but the amount of boost you're actually hitting seems to be about right, give or take a little. This suggests that your boost targets are set unrealistically high.

 

3) Your WGDC is locked at 53.33% for some reason, and I have no idea why.

 

4) You had a tiny bit of FBKC in your first log but not in the other 2, might just be a blip but I'd keep an eye on it.

Hmm.. Funny how they tuned boost almost identical to me

 

But yes, timing is a bit on the low side, knock ist bad at all, I wouldnt even worry about it. It appears to be flowing a good amout of air though!

I would have been curious what IATs were on these pulls. I'd like to add again, that knock isnt anything serious, and only happened on one pull. Pretty normal stuff. Looks good!

Except he doesn't mention having an MBC so why should PWGDC be steady the whole way?

 

Look, I'm sorry, but tuning an EBCS properly isn't quick work. IMHO, there are basically 2 methods to go about it:

 

1) Treat it like a MBC, throw in a high target value that's completely out of reach for the turbo, lock in set values of WGDC, and don't let TD do a thing. This can be done very quickly. But you lose out on some of the benefits of having the EBSC, such as what I mentioned in two other threads about tapering boost.

 

2) Take the time to dial in TD and WGDC values along with whatever compensations are needed. This is time consuming work...

You're a smart guy, and in theory you're correct, but really IMO Option 1 it has its benefits of smoothnes and resistance to spiking as well. Either way is perfectly fine. Also, I still do tune compensations with Option 1.

 

Also, How do you determine what determine what boost to run? How did you determine 18psi was the correct value for your car?

Thanks for the input guys....i will bring it up to my tuner...i have taken over a dozen of logs and that was the only time is saw some knock, hope its just a glich but i will bring up the low timing concerns and why the wgdc is locked in at 53.33%

 

otherwise, im pretty happy with the smoothness of the tune and will continue to work with mikey to fine tune it

 

i was discouraged to even tune after DW failed me twice on a pump

but when cruising and zooming, its an addiction i cant stop lol

Also, I still do tune compensations with Option 1.

With TD disabled, how do you compensate for 4 fat passengers in your car while you're going uphill in 5th at 3300RPM in cold weather and you floor it?

 

There's no such thing as a load compensation table for WGDC, so you'll overboost, hard.

 

Also, How do you determine what determine what boost to run? How did you determine 18psi was the correct value for your car?

 

Compressor maps. But being that the VF40 doesn't have a compressor map that we have access to, it's from experience, trial and error, etc.

 

http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3745

 

And here's why tuning based on boost targets is the right way to do things IMHO. A snippiet:

I am not sure what tune he was using, I haven't seen it. I however seen other local guys run with opensource tunes that I have concerns with and I would like to get some opinions. The first red flag for me on a stage 2 tune that I have seen was the following on the boost target tables :

 

RPM/TQ : 450

 

1600 19.9

2000 19.9

2400 19.9

...

6800 19.9

 

My concern is the following : This is requesting targets that are impossible to attain in most conditions at low RPM and even higher RPM. What I see is the following two things could happen :

http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9457

 

This isn't to suggest that *boom* you'll blow your engine from doing that, but just showing you that a lot of people are on my side on this one, and they have good reasons also.

 

And also:

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/sites/default/files/PDF/Turbo%20Tech%20103.pdf

The knock from the one log is possibly from the mashing of the gas pedal, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Like stated above, I would be curious of your Intake Air Temps during those pulls, which might be the reason for the low timing. Feel free to do another log while including IAT for us to compare the timing to.

With TD disabled, how do you compensate for 4 fat passengers in your car while you're going uphill in 5th at 3300RPM in cold weather and you floor it?

 

There's no such thing as a load compensation table for WGDC, so you'll overboost, hard.

 

True, but considering the car would most likely knock in that situation anyways, the boost makes such a small difference in load. Temp comps are in place to control swings.

 

Plus, TD is still in effect, but not until about 2psi above normal target, so it wont overboost hard. And then fuel cut I above that. So that doesn't happen and the engine doesn't go 'BOOM'

 

Compressor maps. But being that the VF40 doesn't have a compressor map that we have access to, it's from experience, trial and error, etc.

 

http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3745

 

And here's why tuning based on boost targets is the right way to do things IMHO. A snippiet:

 

http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9457

 

This isn't to suggest that *boom* you'll blow your engine from doing that, but just showing you that a lot of people are on my side on this one, and they have good reasons also.

 

And also:

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/sites/default/files/PDF/Turbo%20Tech%20103.pdf

I was hoping you were going to say that Soo explain to me how I can make TONS of power bringing up a vf52 to 23ish lbs on 93 octane and still have room for it to make more? For all intensive purposes, boost is a power knob.

 

You saw someone else run 18psi and thought that was where it was most efficient, etc. Not to be a jerk or call you out, but you have no clue why you ran that boost. You're assuming someone did an efficiency calculation off of compressor maps, which isn't true.

 

Also, like I said before, I don't jump on bandwagons without reason, I test things for myself.

True, but considering the car would most likely knock in that situation anyways, the boost makes such a small difference in load. Temp comps are in place to control swings.

Where did you get this idea from? If targets are dialed in properly, it won't knock. I don't see how you can ignore that boost and timing basically have an inverse relationship. If you make more boost, you run less timing. You make less boost, you can add more timing. If you try to run more timing without reducing boost, you end up with knock. That's the general rule of thumb. Therefore, if you tune your car for a set amount of boost, and you dial in the appropriate amount of timing, your car will knock if you exceed the boost target. The solution? Do your best to not exceed the target. This is best accomplished with TD in full effect.

 

Plus, TD is still in effect, but not until about 2psi above normal target, so it wont overboost hard. And then fuel cut I above that. So that doesn't happen and the engine doesn't go 'BOOM'

About 2 PSI above normal? Where did you get that from? That's how you set your tables up? TD is disabled until you go 2 PSI above target? How did you set up your TDI and TDP tables? What are your activation thresholds? I'd like to see all of these tables.

 

I was hoping you were going to say that Soo explain to me how I can make TONS of power bringing up a vf52 to 23ish lbs on 93 octane and still have room for it to make more? For all intensive purposes, boost is a power knob.

 

You saw someone else run 18psi and thought that was where it was most efficient, etc. Not to be a jerk or call you out, but you have no clue why you ran that boost. You're assuming someone did an efficiency calculation off of compressor maps, which isn't true.

 

Also, like I said before, I don't jump on bandwagons without reason, I test things for myself.

Firstly, I'm a stickler for things like this. It's "intents and purposes".

 

Secondly, boost is a power knob up to a certain point, and only if you ignore other things like timing. I've never disputed that upping boost boost, in general, increases power when you're running in its efficiency range.

 

Thirdly, I'm talking about the VF40, and I am talking about how much boost is being made from the peak and how much it tapers down to.

 

Fourthly, I didn't assume someone did an efficiency calculation. It's called "experience" and plenty of tuners that have had much more experience doing it than just myself tweaking my own car have done it before. I can even tell, from my OWN logs that there are severely diminished returns from driving the turbo harder after about the 5000RPM mark. The VF40 jumps off a cliff at that point and my MAF numbers stop steadily increasing, and no matter how much WGDC I throw at it, boost figures refuse to go up or stay steady at 12.

 

Fifthly, I don't know if you have a problem reading or something but I've never claimed a VF52 can't hit 22PSI. I don't recall ever even talking about the VF52. I don't have any dealings with the VF52, but I can tell you that a VF40 can hit 20+ at peak also. It doesn't mean it can maintain it throughout the rev range. The VF40 and VF52 are not the same turbos in the least bit other than both being IHI.

 

The point is that these smaller turbos (yes, they are small turbos) have a good low/midrange that comes up quickly and can hit your boost target (fairly high ones even) easily, but they drop off quickly because they are being driven outside of their efficiency range. And after a certain point, forcing more exhaust into it yields very diminished returns.

 

This is why people get LARGER TURBOS so that they can maintain the higher boost figures into the higher revs and therefore make more power.

 

edit: It's not like these guys know what they're doing though:

 

http://www.cobbtuning.com/Technical-Articles-s/70674.htm

 

If the wastegate valve is fully closed, more exhaust energy is directed into the turbine housing causing the shaft speed of the turbo charger to increase and the relative pressure (boost) to increase, all within the efficiency range of the turbo

 

...

 

If the rod coming out of the wastegate actuator is shortened, it will pre-load the spring inside the wastegate actuator increasing the pressure level at which the actuator will allow the wastegate valve to open and the total boost pressure that the turbo can generate will increase (as long as the turbo is still within its efficiency range).

 

...

 

NOTE: If you run a turbocharger beyond it’s compressor efficiency range, it will turn into a flame thrower. When you push a turbo beyond what it is capable of doing, then the turbo may generate more boost pressure while over-heating the air charge to a point where it becomes dangerous and brings the engine closer to the detonation threshold.

 

...

If you are increasing or holding wastegate duty cycles steady and boost is dropping then you have most likely reached the threshold of the mechanical efficiency of the turbo or your exhaust gas back pressure prior to the turbo is too high and is forcing the wastegate valve to open.

 

Not in any particular order -

 

1) You could run 22psi on a vf40 and gain power over your setup, guaranteed. Boost is the only power knob you have. Everything else has a proper setting.

 

2) Cobb is talking about much larger turbos, and even that's rare. You'll know when you've hit that point. Usually its large compressor/small turbines when that happens, and many times out of your control, but even still is very hard to do.

 

3) Boost =/ Load. Increases in boost do mean lower timing, only due to the increase in airflow. Think in terms of airflow, not boost. Air, not boost makes power.

 

4) The wastegate at the top end is usually opened by EGBP, merely aided by the EBC/MBC, which has little effect. Even EWG/MBC cars have their wastegate open at redline on a vf. Trying to shut the WG a little more doesn't help nor hurt in most instances.

 

6) Target boost is just a number. You are capping your WGDC anyways. Its not like all of a sudden since its not hitting target you will not force the turbo into some sort of flame thrower spinning out of control until it hits its target. WGDC, not target boost, maintains your boost pressure with an EBC.

Not in any particular order -

 

1) You could run 22psi on a vf40 and gain power over your setup, guaranteed. Boost is the only power knob you have. Everything else has a proper setting.

Only at the point where it hits 22PSI and its immediate surround areas. I have to admit I'm getting pretty irritated with you talking about a peak number with no reference to RPM instead of a specific pressure at a certain RPM and how much it tapers down to.

 

18 PSI, again, is a number that tuners seem to hover around as a good balance between reliability and safety (stock TMIC starts going, more shock to the transmission especially if you have an auto, etc), and actual ability to hit that number consistently and to hold it for a good stretch, at least 500-1000RPM.

 

Anyway, I haven't been talking about peak figures here, at least not in reference to what a turbo is limited to, so please stop throwing out numbers like 22 PSI or 18 PSI or whatever without any sort of reference to what RPM and how long to maintain it, how much to taper to, etc.

 

2) Cobb is talking about much larger turbos, and even that's rare. You'll know when you've hit that point. Usually its large compressor/small turbines when that happens, and many times out of your control, but even still is very hard to do.

No, they're not. They're talking about turbos in general which is why they talk about efficiency ranges which every single turbo has.

 

4) The wastegate at the top end is usually opened by EGBP, merely aided by the EBC/MBC, which has little effect. Even EWG/MBC cars have their wastegate open at redline on a vf. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1729586&page=199 <- Look at the bottom of the page. It shows how high end boost makes no difference on power. The post is perfect, saying exactly what I was trying to. Trying to shut the WG a little more doesn't help nor hurt in most instances.

EGBP will open the WG only when there is enough of it.

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3354720&postcount=3825

 

The vast and overwhelming majority of people have no problems with the stock actuator hitting peak between 17-19PSI on the VF40 just fine, and even on the BNR16G. On the VF40, you could weld the damn WG shut and you'd still have problems holding boost up high.

 

Also not sure which post you are referring to because you linked to an entire page of a thread. But saying "high end boost makes no difference on power" is silly.

 

It makes a difference, when it's being produced efficiently. THAT'S MY POINT.

 

6) Target boost is just a number. You are capping your WGDC anyways. Its not like all of a sudden since its not hitting target you will not force the turbo into some sort of flame thrower spinning out of control until it hits its target. WGDC, not target boost, maintains your boost pressure with an EBC.

 

An MBC is the equivalent of having very high WGDC with very high boost targets (after you hit your peak target), which will overdrive the turbo in higher gears because it is outside of its efficiency range.

 

An EBCS with fixed WGDC values of 53% on the VF40 with TD disabled is different. It's unlikely to be overdriven with 53% WGDC across the board.

 

If at this point you still don't understand the points I've been making, I give up. I swear it's like talking to a brick wall.

 

edit:If you still don't believe me, read this instead:

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/read-compressor-maps-55147.html

 

It's been suggested that a VF40 correlates well to a T3-50 compressor map, available here:

http://turboneticsinc.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=534

 

Plug the numbers in. You can see that the datapoint plops you to the right of the choke line.

I understand what you are saying. And most of it is true. But at the end of the day its how the car reacts.

 

I'm not trying to argue (really), just trying to clarify. I think you are getting caught up in the fact I am targeting 20psi until redline on my car. I do that not because I think, or want it to hold that much. I do it because I could target anything, and as you stated, It wouldn't change a thing, and it would have issues holding boost, so why not target that? Its a locked WGDC anyways. We don't disagree on as much as you think.

 

I also run a locked WGDC, just like this particular car is running, because ramping it up like many tuners do does virtually nothing for boost or power.

Are you running an MBC? Or is it an MBC run in a hybrid setup or standalone with the EBCS removed?

 

If you are running an MBC only with nothing else, the words "target" or "WGDC" mean absolutely nothing to you because those are terms related to an EBCS setup.

 

For a standalone MBC, you've set your MBC to achieve 20PSI at your peak but due to efficiency your turbo will eventually run out of steam. You have a VF52, which is larger than a VF40, but not a large turbo. Because you dialed it in for 20PSI and because your turbo will run out of steam at some point and not be able to produce 20 PSI, your MBC will not direct any of the boost through the line to the actuator, and so all exhaust will be going through the turbine.You can't "lock" your WGDC in on an MBC because WGDC are relevant only on an EBCS. All you can do is choose how much boost the MBC (a valve, really) is set to hold before it starts directing the boost into the WG actuator.

 

A hybrid setup is completely different. And an EBCS system setup with flat WGDC is also different. The OP makes no mention of an MBC and specifically says he has an EBCS.

 

I'm getting pretty irritated and I feel pretty bad about derailing OP's thread for this crap at this point, especially since our debate is scattered in three different threads now and I have yet to get a straight answer from you about what you've actually done to your car. I've been searching and posting to support my side, and you've done nothing except say, "I don't jump on bandwagons without reason, I test things for myself." What have you tested so far that disputes what I've put forward?

 

So let's cut to the chase, what are YOU running?

My LGT is 'stage 2' has the stock EBC tuned almost exactly how the OPs car is. Including Temp comps tuned. Its 'normal' operating range is 18.2 psi +/- 1 psi. Usually its well within that. It actually works very well.

 

My WRX has a vf34 and all the supporting stuff and is running an MBC. I chose the MBC because of how reliable and how much quicker the spool is with the 2 liter.

 

They each have their place, and there are many reasons as to why each should be used.

Post a log of your VF40 producing anywhere near 18.2PSI +/-1 at redline.

Let me clarify for all you armchair tuners out there. In 3rd gear normal boost pressure is 18.2 Psi +/- 1 at 3400-4000, 16.2 +/- .5 at 4500, 15.8 +/- .2 at 5000, 14.5 +/- .1 at 5500, 13 +/-.1 at 6000, 12 +/- .1 at 6500.

 

70% WGDC LOCKED, stock EBC, stock actuator with Mad tyte kustomm door spring.

 

iNVAR, get out and do some experimenting and actually tuning, it'll do you a world of good.

Now run it in 4th and/or 5th, what happens to your boost level?

 

Yeah, I never go out and experiment... never.

 

http://www.crimetank.com/misc/folders.gif

Boost level does go up, but not enough where the car is 'overboosting'. In my mind the slight increase in boost isn't a huge deal as load will increase in 4th/5th anyways even if boost was the same with targets and TD with a EBC in full effect.

 

Also, that is a bit of logs!

Boost level does go up, but not enough where the car is 'overboosting'. In my mind the slight increase in boost isn't a huge deal as load will increase in 4th/5th anyways even if boost was the same with targets and TD with a EBC in full effect.

I feel like for some reason you're not getting what I'm saying, or there's a communications problem or something.

 

It's not that you're overboosting...That's not the issue.

 

It's that you're driving the turbo harder than you need to be or should be. A symptom of that is that your boost increases a tiny bit, but you really don't know at what cost. Is your turbo working a lot harder now? With a locked in 70% across the spectrum, it's pushing it more than it needs to make the effective boost levels that you're already seeing in 3rd AND it's causing a slight increase in boost.

 

So you're at 12# at redline, right? With 70% in 3rd gear. In 4th gear (I can't say 5th because holy crap you'd be FLYING), you'd be hitting maybe 12.5? 13#? And you're still at 70%... you're driving the turbo harder to get maybe 0.5-1# more than in 3rd. And it's likely NOT productive boost either. As Cobb says, a flamethrower.

 

You could (if TD was active) dial back from 70% to 55-60% and still hit about 12-12.5# in 4th instead, maybe even advance a degree of timing due to a decrease in charge temperature (less heat from friction, EGBP, etc.). AND you'd be saving the life of your turbo.

 

This is using your own setup as an example. On the MBC, the difference is even greater because at redline, you'd be running the equivalent of 100% WGDC.

 

And before you say the EGBP will open it, not on a VF40 with a properly working WG actuator it won't. And especially not if you've upgraded the actuator.

 

Also, that is a bit of logs!

 

Yeah, I take my laptop out a lot. Did you notice how many revisions it says I'm on? I'm a bit OCD about things. These aren't only WOT logs. They are all sorts of mixed driving conditions. Partial throttle, heatsoak, cold weather, hot weather, uphill downhill, etc. etc. I pored over these logs and made very fine adjustments. It's pretty much at the point where I don't want to touch it much more.

Is it hot in here or is it just me:eek:

Well these are 3 fresh logs that were just pulled, there were some cops out with their radar but i think i did good to pull 3 decent logs...

 

looks like that knock was a hiccup hopefully

I will continue to do more logs...but with gas prices up i like getting 24mpg on my stage 2 tune lol...

datalog1.csv

datalog2.csv

datalog3.csv