unable to pull the trigger after 3 test drives (long)

This is my comment/question about the GT limited wagon, coming from BMW 325i 5sp. No I don't drive BMW for the badge. Actually in our area there is actually a reversed image problem. I actually have to be a bit thick skinned just to enjoy this car. If someone thinks I'm a poser or wannabe, so be it. The drive is worth it. Anyhow, we need a bigger car after wife getting another sport sedan. The dirve this afternoon is the most extensive one. It's a demo sedan with 5sp, 260 miles on it. They didn't have a wagon. That's ok since I've driven the wagon before. Taking off from stop is good, it pulls strong in a composed manner. Nothing abrupt. Mid range acceleration is my favorite part. Turbo came in gradually and the power kept coming. We had a 9-5 Aero, GT doesn't quite have the "kick" found in Aero. Not a problem at all, just different cars. I then pushed the car a little bit getting into the on ramp. The body roll isn't bad at all, compared to the 325 with sport suspension. It felt a little bit chaotic when I powered out of the corner. Rear tires chirped a little. I attributed it to RE92s. Can't say I know much about these tires though, just hearsay. Merging was fun, tones of torque to play with on the 4th. Highway cruising was quiet enough at 80. Suprisingly 325 felt quieter. GT seems to have more road noise. Blame on the tires again?? I was thinking, ok I'll take it. Now came the kicker. Pushed the gas pedal at 80 and nothing. Turbo came on after a second or two, even after that the pull was kind weak. I think rpm was 3200 or so at 80, not sure tho. Aero with 230 hp felt much stronger in this scenario. Even the puny 184hp engine on 325 gave a more direct and stronger feel. This is really a letdown. I understand the engine hasn't been broken in yet. But this is enough to give me the pause. I told them I have to think about it. I'm still considering it because all the benefits come from a AWD wagon, which is still pretty fun to drive. Here is the summary: Pros Great mid range power Good handling out of box, to tell you the truth, I can't say 325 is better in normal driving. Didn't push hard so can't say much beyond that. Good value, wagon form. Cons/Concerns Acceleration of the 5th gear, I don't really think turbo lag is even the problem here. Seems that you need to downshift to pass, at least with authority. Alghout 325 is rated 184hp and GT 250. 325 has a more direct engine response. In the daily drive envelope, 325 actually "feels" better. I know putting GT in 3rd gear on a mountain road will be much more fun tho. The car came with the short shift kit. I missed a 5 to 3 shift. May get used to the off center gearing position in the future. Just something to think about. I know it doesn't make sense, the the front area of 325 felt bigger. The trunk area in the wagon isn't that big actually. At least compared to my old 9-3, no comparison to a 9-5 wagon. Quoted msrp - 700 on a silver wagon, not a great deal but tolerable, or not. Anyhow, just my 0.02.

Welcome to the forum. :) I think I'd say most handling and road noise issues are associated to RE92's. I'm running Toyo Proxes 4's on mine and it's rather quiet IMO and it tracks like it's on rails! The power deal... did you just push it to the floor or ease into the throttle? Subarus in general haven't been a hold it to the floor and hold on machine. Ease into it and you'll feel it a bit more. That is what I've noticed, moreso with the turbo models, but that is my general impression. They are generally fairly good at partial throttle situations. About that lack of acceleration at 80, hmm, not sure what to say about that. I was doing that yesterday, had to try out the get up and go, so I eased into the throttle, only momentarily did it pause, then we were picking up quickly. I'm going to guess this was with the manual model as I didn't see you mention it or my eyes skipped over it. I wouldn't really go for anything above $750 over MSRP, but many are finding a good deal less than that. Mine was much better than that! Would really like to hear about that roll into throttle in 5th on the highway.

About the pricing, emailing around can get you $500 or so above invoice. I know from experience, even though I'm not getting a Legacy any time soon (unfortunately). :( Haha. Good luck, and hopefully you'll find a car (if not this one) that suits you.

ed325 - I test drove a 5EAT 2.5GT and found a similar result... it was rather subdued. I felt kinda old driving the LGT. Great car for 30-somethings or up, but for me at 24 I just don't think it's what I'm looking for. I'm probably going to either go with the same price level and get a TSX or go up one to the G35Coupe.

That's insane (not you), there must have been something wrong with that car. Even my WRX has oomph when I hit the gas at 80 in 5th gear. They probably flogged the holy hell out of that car. There will obviously be some lag, but it shouldn't be horrible. You should be WELL within boost by 3500 RPM. As far as the price.. that's a RIPOFF! You should be getting close to invoice but no more than $500 over at this point.

Also remember, this car doesn't have anything sport related to it's engine internals. So don't expect this to rev as quick as a WRX would. Having the STi short Shifter helps out if you have that installed. It'll help you shift quick enoug to maintain power throughout your drive. Once I get a hold of mine and it's broken in, I'll be modding it with a flywheel and clutch. That should allow me to get more umph our of the car. be good Port

The Legacy shares its short block with the STi - I'm not sure if that makes it "sporty" or not ;) If you think your 185 hp car is quicker tha the Legacy then you oprobably shouldn't buy the Legacy. There is no doubt that the auto tranny will make the Legacy more sluggish.

[quote name='rao']The Legacy shares its short block with the STi - I'm not sure if that makes it "sporty" or not ;) If you think your 185 hp car is quicker tha the Legacy then you oprobably shouldn't buy the Legacy. There is no doubt that the auto tranny will make the Legacy more sluggish.[/quote] I was driving a manual. Maybe I didn't make it clear. It's not that 325 is faster, it just feels more linear and direct when on gas, even with its electronic throttle. I had 3 turbo cars before. That's why I think the 5th gear accelleration is kind "off". Maybe it's just that car.

[quote]Also remember, this car doesn't have anything sport related to it's engine internals. [/quote] As stated above, it's the same 2.5 block that is in the STi, and there is the addition of the AVCS system. That seems pretty sporty to most. [quote]So don't expect this to rev as quick as a WRX would. [/quote] It is a larger engine, but it should "rev" just fine and be a good bit quicker than the WRX. The new intercooler in the GT is more efficient adding to the ability of the turbo to run moreefficienmtly than the WRX. [quote]Having the STi short Shifter helps out if you have that installed. It'll help you shift quick enoug to maintain power throughout your drive. [/quote] The short shifter does not effect how fast a car is, you might shift slightly faster, say 0.05 sec or so, but that is probably good for a tenth at most to 60. Gearing is not changeed. Staying in the rev band is simply driver related, not shifter linkage related. [quote]Once I get a hold of mine and it's broken in, I'll be modding it with a flywheel and clutch. That should allow me to get more umph our of the car. [/quote] Once you add power(a lot more than stock), a clutch might be needed, depending on how much you add. The dual-mass flywheel has gotten rave reviews and is relatively light, so that probably would not need an upgrade unless you just wanted to spend money. Make sure you don't give someone bad info... Ted

I was shopping a 325iT with 5MT and Sport Package against the Legacy GT. I just think the Legacy offers more bang for the buck. I think the 325 is a great car, but not worth the extra $$. As for 5th gear... hmm. Hadn't noticed it. Maybe do a 5th-gear roll-on test against your BMW to see what's truly more responsive. With the Legacy's revs where they were at 80, there shouldn't have been much wait at all. Maybe try again with a different car/dealer? As for handling/tire noise, the 92s are the limiting factor. Put some decent tires on and - from what others say - the car is even better. I'd be curious to know what you decide... I know I'm going Legacy GT wagon for sure.

[quote name='PrtMnOWr']Also remember, this car doesn't have anything sport related to it's engine internals. So don't expect this to rev as quick as a WRX would. Having the STi short Shifter helps out if you have that installed. It'll help you shift quick enoug to maintain power throughout your drive. Once I get a hold of mine and it's broken in, I'll be modding it with a flywheel and clutch. That should allow me to get more umph our of the car. be good Port[/quote] Sorry dude.. but I have to take your post apart. The engine in the Legacy is MORE sporty than the WRX engine. Like it was stated before, the AVSC (think of it as vtec-ish) has one up on the EJ20 that's in the WRX. Include a lightened flywheel for a lower rotational mass and the GT should respond HEAD and shoulders above the WRX. This is not even mentioning the extra displacement and the increased efficiency of this turbo system. Also, there is MUCH more low end in the GT since 250 ft/lbs of torque come on at around 3500RPMs (peak). I wasn't meaning to rag, but this car should be and IS faster than a WRX in ANY situation. That includes the increased weight. Either the original poster whas expecting something other than he got and was disatisfied, or there was something amiss with the model that he drove. It could have also been that the car was confused by it's ECU mapping. The car may have been driven like a baby for a shile.. who know's. When you get the car you should help the ECU learn by driving it agressively, not necessarily out of break-in specs, but aggressively nonetheless. This will ensure that it's providing maximum power at all RPM ranges.

I'm not presuming to tell other people that they haven't experienced what they've experienced, but two things colored my perception of the LGT's speed and responsiveness. 1. The LGT is a quieter car. 2. The difference between off- and on-turbo "oomph" is less in the LGT, and the spool-up seems smoother / less abrupt. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the LGT can be faster but "feel" less so.

[quote name='kenzo']I'm not presuming to tell other people that they haven't experienced what they've experienced, but two things colored my perception of the LGT's speed and responsiveness. 1. The LGT is a quieter car. 2. The difference between off- and on-turbo "oomph" is less in the LGT, and the spool-up seems smoother / less abrupt. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the LGT can be faster but "feel" less so.[/quote] I can't say that I agree with you simply because I have yet to drive the GT, you may be right as it concurs with the reports that I have heard. As a matter of fact, I am counting on that since the on/off boost properties of the WRX have grown to annoy me.

"I was shopping a 325iT with 5MT and Sport Package against the Legacy GT" "Sorry dude.. but I have to take your post apart. The engine in the Legacy is MORE sporty than the WRX engine." The Legacy Engine is nowhere ear being "sport", just because it shares the same engine doesn't mean it shares the same internals. Does it use the WRX/STi's ECU, does it use their camshafts, pistons, or valve springs, and/or does it have their weight? I believe all of those are a no. Yes the Legacy has quicker 1/4 then WRX but it's not that quick. If most of you are looking at this car stock and saying it's sluggish and slow you're right. Remember Subaru is making this car in the US to get more adult sales (30+). Like I stated before, Once I have it broken-in, I'll be adding some mods, freeing up the power the car really has.

First off, I never brought the STi into this converstation. Not once. Second, the WRX doesn't have anything "better" as far as internals, block or ECU than the new GT has. If anything the parts on the GT are going to be the same if not higher quality than the WRX (not the STi). There is no way that you are going to convice me that the WRX is either quicker or faster than the GT... the only thing the WRX has going for it is it's weight which in truth isn't exactly a gigantic difference when compared to the GT, but there is a difference I will most certainly agree. In this case the GT definitely takes advantage of it's increased displacement. I wouldn't be suprised to see a new GT test a flat 5 seconds 0-60 (car and driver results which means it's getting beat on). The rubberbanding of the WRX is what makes it feel fast.. I agree that the GT is suppose to be marketed for the older crowd, smooth and silky power delivery with less than or minimal lag. Just remember that the Forester XT can crank a WRX in 0-60 and 1/4 mile times with a "detuned" STi engine. Obviously gearing is a factor, but we can't account for everything. ;)

The engine in the new GT is as light or lighter than that in the WRX STi. With the plastic/composite manifold, much of the IC tanks and tubing and some other components, it should actually be a few points lighter. Not much, but some if you want to count there. The cams may be altered for this car and it's lower redline, the internals may be different, but the internals may also be the same. The block itself I would imagine is actually the same design of semi-closed deck, while the WRX is open deck. I think we know which is stronger and more rigid here. Like noted, this car is rather quick but not as noticeable because power delivery is rather smooth. I've driven WRX's a couple times (a lot more miles in STi's), and the power delivery is more like that of an STi IMO. Strong and comes in earlier, but also fairly smooth. Definition of an engine being sporty is different to each. To me it means good strong torque from low down (like this car has) and has decent top-end (I haven't tried that yet.) It is deceptively fast which means you really don't know how fast you are doing until you look at the gauges. This car feels so good like it is riding on rails (not RE92's of course. :lol: ) This car is rather fast even in break-in. I just can't wait to AutoX this baby! With the right tires, I don't think it would be too far off the stock EVO's and STi's I race with. :)

Now that my car is broken in, this car deceives you. It's so quiet and power delivery is so smooth, acceleration seems slower than it is. Watch the speedo and you'll see what I mean. I have no problems passing in 5th gear, and I know that the ECU cuts back boost when cruising in 5th at 3000 RPM. That is why there is a slight delay when getting on the throttle again, but for me it's not that noticeable. I thought the Legacy had a slightly heavier flywheel than a WRX? It seems to hold its revs longer than times when I drove a WRX in the past.. I could be wrong though since it's been awhile. For the record, I'm almost 20 and I love this car! Yes it might appeal to people older than I am, but this car is faster than so many other cars on the road and is a blast to drive. The stock power levels are much more than enough to get a person in trouble. :D

RU a TROLL? OK, I'll bite.... nothing at 80? I was driving along a fast clip (approx your speed) and noticed a guy on a Kawasaki creeping up in the outermost lane. I let him catch up and as he was passing me on the right, I just eased the throttle down to the floor. For the first few seconds, I kept pace with the rice rocket. Then the turbo kicked in and I began to pull away. Remember, I was in 5th on the Manual Transmission GT- I didn't downshift. The cycle guy then downshifts twice and winds the thing out- I could see his headlight bobbing in my passenger side view mirror. Still he managed to only pull up along side before hitting the brakes. We were certainly well into autobahn speeds, although I backed off as soon after he did because we were heading for some toll booths. I test drove the 325 before buying the Legacy. My wife called it the 'Prince Harry' of BMWs' because it will never be the 330xi. Just seems like there were too many compromises getting the 325- its good but not good enough for the money. The performance was not at all compelling. The 330 was excellent- rock steady and very good acceleration, but I not into paying in the mid 40's for a fast stable ride. By the way- precisely the ride I found in the Legacy GT Ltd. Next time, I'll drop it into 4th if I want to be more serious. But it was just a little fun watching that Kawasaki whine and bob only to almost pull even. To each his own.

[quote name='Rimfaxe']RU a TROLL? OK, I'll bite.... nothing at 80? I was driving along a fast clip (approx your speed) and noticed a guy on a Kawasaki creeping up in the outermost lane. I let him catch up and as he was passing me on the right, I just eased the throttle down to the floor. For the first few seconds, I kept pace with the rice rocket. Then the turbo kicked in and I began to pull away. Remember, I was in 5th on the Manual Transmission GT- I didn't downshift. The cycle guy then downshifts twice and winds the thing out- I could see his headlight bobbing in my passenger side view mirror. Still he managed to only pull up along side before hitting the brakes. We were certainly well into autobahn speeds, although I backed off as soon after he did because we were heading for some toll booths. I test drove the 325 before buying the Legacy. My wife called it the 'Prince Harry' of BMWs' because it will never be the 330xi. Just seems like there were too many compromises getting the 325- its good but not good enough for the money. The performance was not at all compelling. The 330 was excellent- rock steady and very good acceleration, but I not into paying in the mid 40's for a fast stable ride. By the way- precisely the ride I found in the Legacy GT Ltd. Next time, I'll drop it into 4th if I want to be more serious. But it was just a little fun watching that Kawasaki whine and bob only to almost pull even. To each his own.[/quote] Rimfaxe: Same thing happened to me with a guy in a previous generation TL "S" who thought the right lane was for passing while I was doing 80 in the left. I did the same thing you did, ease on the gas without downshifting out of 5th. Next thing I know he's several car lengths back and my speedo is at 105!!! What was more impressive than the power in top gear was the fact that I really didn't feel the speed.

Thats an interesting trick. A turbo car that builds big power in top gear without any throttle tip-in kick in the backside. I can see why that would lead someone to feel that it isn't doing what it should, but obviously there is accelleration there, if soldonSubie is to be believed, and I don't see why not. I wonder if there is a kick in the pants with a downshift to fourth. I like a rush when I go to pass maniacs on the road. "I'll just pass them, and leave them safely behind us." -Clark W. Griswold.

[quote name='rao']If you think your 185 hp car is quicker tha the Legacy then you oprobably shouldn't buy the Legacy. There is no doubt that the auto tranny will make the Legacy more sluggish.[/quote] Sometimes it seems that way. I have test driven a 2004 Ford Mustang Mach 1 (V8 - automatic) rated for about 310 hp and 323 lb ft of torque, and I've also driven a 2004 Audi TT 3.2 (V6) rated at 250 hp and 236 lb ft of torque. And to be honest - the TT felt like an animal, where I thought the Mach 1 felt tame. The TT felt to me like a much faster car, is it really - no, but to my butt dyno the TT felt significantly faster. Go figure. Sorry - that was a bit off topic. - Mike

[quote name='IwannaSportSedan']Thats an interesting trick. A turbo car that builds big power in top gear without any throttle tip-in kick in the backside. I can see why that would lead someone to feel that it isn't doing what it should, but obviously there is accelleration there, if soldonSubie is to be believed, and I don't see why not. I wonder if there is a kick in the pants with a downshift to fourth. I like a rush when I go to pass maniacs on the road. "I'll just pass them, and leave them safely behind us." -Clark W. Griswold.[/quote] Well when I am on it past 4000 RPM in 4th it's like a rush. The car just wants to fly! :D