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Finally popped the motor, ugh...


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Guess its my turn on the engine rebuild merry-go-round. I've felt like I wasn't putting down the power like I usually do during the last few track days last season and oil consumption had gone up. Figured it was time to check the health of the motor over the winter. Compression came back with cyl. 2 at 105 and the rest right around 130. Always thought it would be the typical number 4 cyl. but guess not.

 

Working the the guys at Horizontal Motorsports for the rebuild. They said I should count myself lucky to have gotten 9 years at stg. 2 and then stg. 3 and 7 of those 9 years with numerous track days without a whiff of engine trouble all on cast pistons.

 

Sure doesn't lessen the pain though....

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HA! Gawd I wish but no. Putting some forged internals in, refreshing the heads and most likely throwing in a Killer B oil pan and pick up while the motor is out. That's painful enough.

 

Guess I'm going to have a late start to my track season this year. Hoping for mid May...

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HA! Gawd I wish but no. Putting some forged internals in, refreshing the heads and most likely throwing in a Killer B oil pan and pick up while the motor is out. That's painful enough.

 

Guess I'm going to have a late start to my track season this year. Hoping for mid May...

 

I'm confused. Your verbiage indicates you somehow think that forged pistons, the associated machining of the block, etc, somehow becomes cheaper than buying a new OEM block. . . Is this the case?

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Nope, I was briefly considering buying an OEM block from Heubergers and then swapping out the pistons and rods but that seems to be pretty negligible in price to just rebuilding mine...
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The price difference appears to be pretty negligible between the two. If I buy an OEM block from Heuberger its still going to have to be disassembled to install the new pistons, rods, bearings etc.

 

No sense in doing that, either. Might as well just buy new case halves instead.

 

That said, are you shooting for more than 350 this time around? I see your current numbers and they look fine for a stock block, even for part-time competition use.

 

Price difference between OEM block and (good) forged bits should be somewhere north of about $500 - Not quite negligible.

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I usually can usually rebuild a popped engine with forged pistons (Wiseco is my preferred "default" brand, but varies by application) for $2,000-$2,100. In my experience a new OEM short block will not be less than $1,800 once shipping is factored in, and usually closer to $1,850. The price climbs from there for additional parts and/or machining & balancing work, but those numbers are "apples-to-apples".
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his numbers are only 20 down from mine in both hp & tq. Wouldn't take much to bump them up. However, the tune makes alot of difference. It's more about getting the power down when you need it than actual numbers.

 

if you can swing the windage tray, I'd get that instead of the pickup. Honestly, the pickup seemed to be more gimmick that anything else. Unless you have a habit of going off track and hitting the oil pan.

 

Also an engine oil cooler that has its own separate air flow. Unless you are running high quality oil ?

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Hmmm after putting the budget together with stuff that would be foolish to not go ahead and do now, I'm thinking of keeping the stock oil pan and just going with the windage tray. Going with Wiseco pistons and Manley H Tuff Rods, ACL bearings, ARP head studs. New water pump, new oil pump, (11mm), and Gates Racing timing belt kit.
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Hmmm after putting the budget together with stuff that would be foolish to not go ahead and do now, I'm thinking of keeping the stock oil pan and just going with the windage tray. Going with Wiseco pistons and Manley H Tuff Rods, ACL bearings, ARP head studs. New water pump, new oil pump, (11mm), and Gates Racing timing belt kit.

 

Good, solid list. Add the KB pickup, it's only another $170. . . In the realm of what you're preparing to spend, and the power you want to make, don't skimp on something you can't easily get at to fix/replace. Moroso also makes a pickup that's a little cheaper and good quality, too.

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yeah, probably a good idea. Still tossing around ideas on AOS / catch cans. I was set to go with the Crawford for its reputed high G load capabilities on track but Horizontal has had bad luck getting them to actually function well with the mount location and routing used for Legacy fitment. I'll do a bit more research but may end up going Grimmspeed knowing that its at least better than my stock set up.
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yeah, probably a good idea. Still tossing around ideas on AOS / catch cans. I was set to go with the Crawford for its reputed high G load capabilities on track but Horizontal has had bad luck getting them to actually function well with the mount location and routing used for Legacy fitment. I'll do a bit more research but may end up going Grimmspeed knowing that its at least better than my stock set up.

 

Ask Boxkita (preferably via PM) about the effectiveness of the GS AOS. Hint: his is up for sale.

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Shralp, I think you should re-consider and think hard about sticking with an oem shortblock. There's a lot to be said for staying oem if you are under 400 hp.. Most of the build threads here and on NASIOC revolve around failed forged internals, for many reasons. Under 400 HP neither Yimi Sport or Crawford advise using forged, stick with OEM.

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/impp-1103-subaru-ej-series-engine-tech/

Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine.

"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"

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Shralp, I think you should re-consider and think hard about sticking with an oem shortblock. There's a lot to be said for staying oem if you are under 400 hp.. Most of the build threads here and on NASIOC revolve around failed forged internals, for many reasons. Under 400 HP neither Yimi Sport or Crawford advise using forged, stick with OEM.

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/impp-1103-subaru-ej-series-engine-tech/

 

Good advice, though I'm not necessarily a fan of that particular article. . . there's conflicting information in there, and, at least one set of "pros" recommend forged right at about 300, as opposed to the other, who focus more on better tunes.

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Since were talking more HP...

Why not get a closed deck block from outfront with a new STi crank and your pick of forged rods/pistons? Seems like it might handle some more abuse with track days involved.

 

Least that's where my head is reading several chapters ahead of where I'm at.

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Shralp, I think you should re-consider and think hard about sticking with an oem shortblock. There's a lot to be said for staying oem if you are under 400 hp.. Most of the build threads here and on NASIOC revolve around failed forged internals, for many reasons. Under 400 HP neither Yimi Sport or Crawford advise using forged, stick with OEM.

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/impp-1103-subaru-ej-series-engine-tech/

 

Gator, are you saying under 400HP or under 400whp?

 

Depending on drivetrain loss, "under 400HP" could mean 300/300 at the wheels, which is the goal for a lot of folks who aren't even tracking their car regularly or at all (you know, like me :p). With just a 16g and all bolt ons I figure I'm right in that range, which is why I'm asking about you're knowledge here!

"Bullet-proof" your OEM TMIC! <<Buy your kit here>>

 

Not currently in stock :(

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Since were talking more HP...

Why not get a closed deck block from outfront with a new STi crank and your pick of forged rods/pistons? Seems like it might handle some more abuse with track days involved.

 

Least that's where my head is reading several chapters ahead of where I'm at.

 

I kind of agree. The more I've thought about builds, the more I've divided it into two options: stock block and run it till it breaks, or full built including closed deck case halves.

"Bullet-proof" your OEM TMIC! <<Buy your kit here>>

 

Not currently in stock :(

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I kind of agree. The more I've thought about builds, the more I've divided it into two options: stock block and run it till it breaks, or full built including closed deck case halves.

 

Seems that line of thought is rooted in forged == better. That's not the case in all aspects. Forged can handle more power than stock, but that doesn't mean its all-around better. The idea of "overbuilt" and under boosted seems to strike people as a viable option for high powered reliability over stock, but, I'm just not so sure that's what actually turns out.

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Seems that line of thought is rooted in forged == better. That's not the case in all aspects. Forged can handle more power than stock, but that doesn't mean its all-around better. The idea of "overbuilt" and under boosted seems to strike people as a viable option for high powered reliability over stock, but, I'm just not so sure that's what actually turns out.

 

Totally agree with what you're saying and I'm not of the belief that forged=better. I think I'm actually saying exactly what your are saying. Stay stock unless you absolutely have to go "built", at which point just throw everything available at it and go "full built".

 

Forged motors definitely have downsides, the biggest being build quality (it varies) and shelf life (it's diminished). A stock block under reasonable power and with a good tune can go 200k miles. A forged block? no way. Treat a forged block like you do coilovers--it'll likely need a rebuild of some sort in under 100k miles at best.

"Bullet-proof" your OEM TMIC! <<Buy your kit here>>

 

Not currently in stock :(

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Thanks for all the input guys and keep it coming. Although its not making my decision any easier now :) I admit, my initial call was to just put a new OEM short block in, refresh the heads and call it a day. This was based on my argument that I have driven the car pretty hard for many a track season and really had no troubles. I'm partly chalking that up to a really good tune by Tim Bailey at Cobb/Surgeline so many moons ago.

 

Its just that here is the thing, the really purpose of this car has radically changed for me since I originally bought it in late '05. It was so fun to have as a daily driver for the first year or so at stg.2 and that carried into my intro to driving school and track days and eventual move to stg. 3 a few years ago. Thing is, it just got to the point where to move the capabilities to the next level, the car was going to get exceedingly louder, stiffer, etc etc and I was ok with that since the whole plan was to eventually make it a track specific car. Once it no longer had to carry babies and camping gear I was able to do that. Knowing that if it breaks down its not going to screw me over for transportation is huge.

 

Its just this, the car is pretty much seeing 95% of its time on the track now. Its getting driven HARD. Its spending tons of time at high revs and seeing plenty of red line shifts. The thing is just getting pushed so far beyond what a daily driver would see on a regular basis. I have no intention of ever seeing the car as a daily driver again, hell everything aft of the front seats is gutted.

 

I dunno, it just doesn't seem like a good idea to put a car in that kind of environment and expect stock components to hold up. Granted, I'm no engine guru but isn't that why you build a block with the components to handle this abuse? Because essentially thats what I'm doing I'm abusing it well beyond typical design parameters.

 

The biggest variable is just what you mention BarManBean, it scares the hell out of me and thats build quality. It just comes down to who is putting the thing together, its just huge. Obviously I'm doing as much research as I can and so far I've heard nothing but good things on the shops track record. One of the reasons I've chosen them is because while they will do anything from regular maintenance to upgrade mods to full race set ups, the lionshare of what these guys do is build Subaru motors. I tend to believe that the more you do something the more you learn how to do it right and you just get better at it. I'm currently 8th in line to get my motor built, they are just backed up at least 8 weeks right now.

 

You guys are right definitely not going to get 100K+ longevity out of a built block, but keep in mind, Other that driving to and from the track, (anywhere from 15 min to about a 2 hr drive), I'm just not putting miles on the car anymore. And the miles I'm putting on it are no sunday drive for sure.

 

If someone could really prove to me that I could put down 300whp all day long with a good tune, (or say 325whp, I'll most likely bump up to something 18G-ish at some point and swap to headers), then I'd be the first on line for that OEM block. I just haven't found that proof yet you know?

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Totally agree with what you're saying and I'm not of the belief that forged=better. I think I'm actually saying exactly what your are saying. Stay stock unless you absolutely have to go "built", at which point just throw everything available at it and go "full built".

 

Forged motors definitely have downsides, the biggest being build quality (it varies) and shelf life (it's diminished). A stock block under reasonable power and with a good tune can go 200k miles. A forged block? no way. Treat a forged block like you do coilovers--it'll likely need a rebuild of some sort in under 100k miles at best.

 

Basically, it sounds like OP needs to go " full built", then.

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Your in the need of some more mass in the right places.

The closed deck with larger head studs and some good internals on a STi crank should keep it's structural composure for what your doing.

I cringe seeing the prices of Billet cranks and just not sure they are worth it till pushing hard 400hp.

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