Legacy GT upgrades for track days?

Note - I also cross-posted this over at mnsubaru.com; apologies if you've seen it there already.

 

I have a stock 2009 Legacy GT and I've taken it to a couple of track days (Pacific Raceways HPDC in Seattle, WA) and of course I'm totally hooked. I don't think you can have a pulse, do an event like that and not be hooked. I use the car as a family car, but don't drive it much because I work out of my house. I moved to Minnesota this year.

 

I'm thinking of eeeeaasssing into the track day thing, and might put a little money into the car. I am looking for advice as far as what changes make sense, in what order. Reading here and elsewhere leads me to:

 

1. Tires first - maybe Continental ExtremeContact DW for summer, keep the stock Potenza all-seasons until they wear out, then get snowtires to replace them in the winter. I'm new to MN, so this whole winter tires thing is a new adventure. The tires should be useful on the street and not crazy expensive, but decent for the casual track day too.

 

2. Wheels second (?) With two sets of tires, two sets of wheels seem to make sense. But I'm not vain about it and I'm not rich either. If I use the stocks in the winter and get summer wheels, what's a good make for daily use and a handful of track days a year?

 

I'm thinking I'd keep the same size wheels and tires as stock since huge wheels and extremely low profile tires won't help handling much past the 17s on the car already. I could go 18, I guess, to match the spec.B and maybe get some cornering advantage. Bigger doesn't seem like it'd help.

 

3. Next, budget permitting, would be a pair of ant-roll bars. Anyone with experience here? What I read is that the Legacy is prone to understeer (I'll vouch for that because the first track day was in the rain, and it plowed forward something fierce) and roll in corners, and that ASBs are a good investment both to keep 'er level in the corners and adjust the grip front to back.

 

4. If I somehow get good at this and remain addicted I'd do springs/struts and lower the car, but tastefully :-)

 

I think power mods and exhaust would be last on my list (this is my age showing, I guess). Until I get to be a half-decent driver, stock horsepower is enough. And reliability is important to me. For me sounding fast is less important than driving well.

 

Advice? Experience?

 

Guys at mnsubaru.com almost unanimously said brake upgrades should be #2 or #3 after tires. Maybe braided lines and fluid, or lines, fluid and better pads. They also seem less thrilled with the Contis. Split on if roll bars or struts and springs make more sense first.

1 and 2) wheels and tires should be gotten as a set, with a wider wheel to allow you to run a wider tire. you will want to get at least a 8" wide wheel to run a 245 wide tire. your tire choice is mediocre at best. a track/summer tire will be somthing more like a dunlop star spec or a hankook ventus R-s3 or anything on the extreme performance summer category on tirerack.com

 

Winters can be whatever you want.

 

3 and 4) Any track pro will tell you that dampers(shocks) come first before anything else(except tires of course). Get a set of Koni shocks if you are on a budget, or RCE tarmac 1 coils if you have some more cash to spend. Doing swaybars first will make the car more unpredictable at the limit since you are decreasing your suspension independence and grip at the limit.

 

As far as brakes are concerned, a pad upgrade and fluid bleed is all that is needed for a novice. if you don't mind dust or squeaks, Hawk HP+ pads will be more than enough for you to get started.

 

so to recap the order of things to do

1-tires(with wheels)

2-struts

3-brakes

4-seat time

5-springs(if you didnt buy coilovers)

6-sways

7-power mods

8-anyting else.

PM Boxita he has tracked his wagon a ton at PIR and other tracks. Definitely do tires,springs,struts,pads, rotors, sway bars and endlinks. Then go from there.

Best bang for your buck wheels are going to be Enkei RPF1s. They're relatively lightweight and durable for what you pay for them. They are going to be more expensive than Rotas, but the benefits are much greater. In other news, I have a set of Rays Gramlights with summer tires for sale in the for sale thread. Whitetiger hit the nail on the head about tires. Those two are the best for street and race use.

 

Upgrade your brake pads next and probably toss in some DOT4 fluid (ATE Superblue or Motul RBF600 are good choices) to hold up to the heat that will be created from hard braking. Rotors aren't a huge deal, plenty of people run NAPA specials for track days. Drilled and slotted rotors just help with heat dissipation and reduce fade.

 

Then look to suspension stuff (assuming that your stock struts are still in good condition for now). Springs, struts and sway bars will make a huge difference.

 

Biggest upgrade is the driver. Try to ride with people who know the track to learn the lines and how to handle different things. Also get ride alongs with people with different set ups to get an idea of what you like and don't like about their mods before investing in your own. I wouldn't overhaul everything all at once so you can get an idea of what each mod is doing to change your vehicle dynamics.

I ruined the stock pads in a morning in the mountains. Consumed the last of the pads and had bad brake fad. They glazed and have been bad since. They need replacement.

 

I'd start with the pads/fluid first, tires, and then suspension work.

 

On my track car I really liked Star Spec Z1s and the RS-3. The problem with both was very limited tread life and I've moved to a compromise of HRTZIII.

Thanks everyone. With all the advice I'm thinking new tires for sure (deciding between extreme perf tires and some compromise is tough. I might have to drive in the rain on the street, maybe even long distance). With those, considering new wheels at the same time. Brake lines, fluid and pads probably next in line. I'll hold off on other mods until I get more seat time, then maybe struts/springs.

 

Is there an easy, reliable way to check what wider wheels and tires would fit the car (e.g. 17x8) with no rub and stock alignment? (noob question, I know, that's why I'm asking for help :-). Lastly if I have two sets of wheels is there any alignment issue changing them out?

The only alignment issues come from messing with the suspension components. There's a whole list in the wheels/tires sub-forum of the different widths and offsets that will fit. You can also google "offset calculator" to check inboard and outboard clearances in comparison to stock. You should be able to easily go up to an 8.5" wide with a 45-48 offset with maybe a mild roll in the rear.

 

Is there an easy, reliable way to check what wider wheels and tires would fit the car (e.g. 17x8) with no rub and stock alignment? (noob question, I know, that's why I'm asking for help :-). Lastly if I have two sets of wheels is there any alignment issue changing them out?

 

 

switching wheels and tires between seasons should not affect your alignemnt.

 

for best fitment, a 17"x8" +48 wheel with a 245/40/17 tier will fit fine with no issues, especially with stock ride height. if you are tracking, you should not be on the stock alignment anyways. you will want as much negative camber as the suspension adjustments will allow in the front. Dont worry about extreme performance tires in the rain, most are fantastic in the wet, especially dunlop star specs and toyo R-1R's.

stick with 17" wheels, as tires are cheaper

 

and lighter..

 

since you don't drive it much, I'd definitely get a set of the Hankook RS3 or Federal 595 RSR

Excellent. Pricing 17x8 in wheels and some 245's will be next. Thanks everyone for great information.

I have almost the same setup...haha

 

17x9 +38 with 245/40/17

so to recap the order of things to do

1-tires(with wheels)

2-struts

3-brakes

4-seat time

5-springs(if you didnt buy coilovers)

6-sways

7-power mods

8-anyting else.

 

I respectfully disagree and say.

 

1- Seat time

2- Seat time

3- Seat time

4- seat time

5 Seat time

6- seat time

7-Tires and Wheels

8- brakes

I respectfully disagree and say.

 

1- Seat time

2- Seat time

3- Seat time

4- seat time

5 Seat time

6- seat time

7-Tires and Wheels

8- brakes

I'd put brakes a little higher up the list since if you pick it up fairly fast you'll quickly over heat the pads.

As a friends grandmother once said "don't skimp on brakes or tires. Those are the only 2 items that will save your life when it really comes down to it"

OK, I do need tires anyway, so it's a matter of selection. Right now I'm looking at a set of Enkei Falcons @ 17 x 8 and a set of 245/40 R17 tires from tirerack "Max Perf Summer" category. The Hankooks and such are sexy but I can't justify treadwear below 250 - they just wouldn't last long enough for my wallet to enjoy the experience. The ones I am looking at are like Conti ExtremeContact DW (complaints of sidewall softness noted), Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric, Potenza S-04 Pole Position. Anyone have light-duty track/lap day experience with this category? Recommendations?

Hankook Ventus V12

You need a tire that can handle the heat moreso then a tire with a higher treadwear. I had Hankook Ventus V12's and they started chunking after two track days. My skill level is early intermediate.

 

I was at one track day where I was given high marks about the Conti ExtremeContact DW on a BMW, but that was only at one day so I don't know about the longevity.

I'd put brakes a little higher up the list since if you pick it up fairly fast you'll quickly over heat the pads.

 

That's probably true, I guess I am just trying to stress the point that seat time is worth way more then mods. Especially at the start.

op wants something with higher treadwear...so that rules out most of the super sticky summer tires

you can get 2 full years out of a dunlop star spec or a RE-11 with a properly maintained alignment

That's probably true, I guess I am just trying to stress the point that seat time is worth way more then mods. Especially at the start.

 

You're correct, seat time is critical. The stock pad/rotor/fluid setup though is quickly exceeded as your go from 'first time tracker' to 'I want to push the car'.

 

In fairness OP my comment regarding the pad use/fade is after a few years autox/tracking. Your first few track runs might not be the same.

op wants something with higher treadwear...so that rules out most of the super sticky summer tires

 

OP is concerned about his wallet and is assuming that life of the tire is directly related to the threadwear. This is mostly true on a street driven tire but is not accurate on a tracked tire.

You need a tire that can handle the heat moreso then a tire with a higher treadwear. I had Hankook Ventus V12's and they started chunking after two track days. My skill level is early intermediate.

 

This is why if you plan on doing track activities more than once, you need track appropriate tires. It is very easy to ruin a set of tires if you drive too hard for them. Some people pick it up quickly, others do not. If you feel you fall into the former category, don't waste your time with MPSs.

 

Tire Rack just listed the Star Spec ZIIs. They've been getting rave reviews in Japanland. I would look into a set of those or R-S3s. Z1s are a great autox tire, but I wouldn't recommend them for a HPDE. They are very easy to heat up and you'll ruin them very quickly if you aren't careful.

This is why if you plan on doing track activities more than once, you need track appropriate tires. It is very easy to ruin a set of tires if you drive too hard for them. Some people pick it up quickly, others do not. If you feel you fall into the former category, don't waste your time with MPSs.

 

Tire Rack just listed the Star Spec ZIIs. They've been getting rave reviews in Japanland. I would look into a set of those or R-S3s. Z1s are a great autox tire, but I wouldn't recommend them for a HPDE. They are very easy to heat up and you'll ruin them very quickly if you aren't careful.

 

Not to be a stickler but the Star Specs have been great track tires. The RS3's have a softer side wall, but 'possible' more actual grip. I liked both tires equally, though I didn't get much more than 6K on the rears. (different car RWD)

Not to be a stickler but the Star Specs have been great track tires. The RS3's have a softer side wall, but 'possible' more actual grip. I liked both tires equally, though I didn't get much more than 6K on the rears. (different car RWD)

 

If you can drive them then they're fine. I never had any issues with them, but I've seen where people have ruined them on hot days since they heat up very quickly.