Sport Alignment Specs

Just finished installing all new Whiteline bushings front and rear, Spec B aluminum LCAs, rear trailing arms, and upper lateral link. In addition, I also installed adjustable rear lateral links in the rear. Time for an alignment.

 

I'm thinking in front:

Max out negative camber, but keep both sides the same - No camber plates installed.

Toe set to zero

Caster is what it is with the Whiteline LCA bushing kit.

 

In rear

Adjust camber to about -1.5, or at least -.5 greater than the front.

Toe set to zero (Not sure on this one though)

 

My goal is to have a balanced setup for street and track with more over-steer than under-steer. I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions on how to proceed.

I would usually want to run more camber in the front than the rear, because it will help the car rotate easier and reduce understeer. If you are only using factory camber bolts in front, however, then I would max out the front with zero cross camber (each side the same like you mentioned), zero toe all around, and about -1.2 to -1.5 degrees camber in the rear, depending on what you get from the front. You mention "at least -.5 greater than the front", but I would change that to "at most -.5 more". You should be able to get 1-1.2 out of the front bolts though, so 1.5 in the rear is fine.

 

The WL front LCA caster bushings are adjustable, so you are able to get cross caster to zero as well, which is nice. Aim for 7 degrees caster if you can get it.

Here's the specs when I did my corner balance on my track wagon:

 

corner-balance = 50.00%

Rake = 1.25

front camber = -2.1

front caster = +6.8

front toe = 0

rear camber = -1.4/-1.2 (L/R)

rear toe = 0

 

Corner weights, with driver & 1/3 fuel, came out to:

1056 1026

767 738

for a total of 3590.

 

This is the suspension parts list:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3786714&postcount=13

Excuse the question, but what are you referring to as "rake" and how does it differ from caster?

 

Did you install different camber bolts to get to where you are or are you running an adjustable top hat?

If you get -1.5 degrees out of the front, don't bring your rear beyond -0.5 unless you like understeer. I'd keep about 1 degree of difference until you get to 0 in the rear. This is what I have and it is fairly neutral, but I have a front LSD, which increases understeer a bit.

Honestly, the real value in having an adjustable rear camber kit is being able to equalize the camber in a corner balanced car.

Edited September 24, 2014 by nm+

If you get -1.5 degrees out of the front, don't bring your rear beyond -0.5 unless you like understeer. I'd keep about 1 degree of difference until you get to 0 in the rear.

Our rear isn't adjustable without a camber kit (I have a whiteline kit), FYI.

 

Thank you! I meant to say, as both you and scoobyscoodle eluded to, to go the other way on front vs rear camber. I am trying to eliminate understeer as much as possible. I would rather be neutral or have it slightly oversteer.

I do have the whiteline kit as well, which I think will help. The bushings in my old lateral links were completely shot and bolts frozen. The last shop that aligned the car spun/tore one of the bushings and didn't say a word.

 

Thanks for all suggestions! I found an alignment shop in town that has a newer rack and the ability to use it (the more important of the two). I'm just waiting for my whiteline toe lock bolt kit to arrive tomorrow to button up this project and get it there.

I will say if you can't find someone local who really knows what they are doing and fancy a roadtrip, this guy is amazing

http://www.thealignmentguy.com/

When I lived in Minneapolis, all the quick cars went there.

Excuse the question, but what are you referring to as "rake" and how does it differ from caster?

 

rake is the fancy term for "saggy butt washers". It lowers the front in relation to the back. Kind of how a funny car dragster appears to be higher in the back than the front.

In my case, it helped induce oversteer. Which led to swapping parts in the rear to allow for more camber. Which cut down on the tendency to swap ends.

 

Did you install different camber bolts to get to where you are or are you running an adjustable top hat?

 

The BC Racing C/O came with camber plates, part of the reason I chose them. As stand-alone plates were in the $500-600 range, spending another $500 to get single adjustable c/o seemed like a win.

 

In the rear, I bought the WL rear camber kit + Cusco chassis braces + SpecB upper arm + all new WL bushings for the rear. This eventually (3 corner balances later) allowed the BFG R1 slicks to stay planted regardless of G load. Though it was still possible to spin when you are riding the raggedy edge of stupid.

 

On the road, its like driving a go-kart with the limited suspension travel and very responsive steering. On a smooth road, it's truly a blast.

 

I had planned to replace the steering box for a faster ratio, however, with track driving super quick steering is not a requirement and can be dangerous. If I had stuck with autox, I'd have swapped to a much faster custom solution (looks like Q-Rack is out of business, so this is it : http://www.rallispec.com/sus_ste_rst3474.html )

Thank you! I meant to say, as both you and scoobyscoodle eluded to, to go the other way on front vs rear camber. I am trying to eliminate understeer as much as possible. I would rather be neutral or have it slightly oversteer.

I do have the whiteline kit as well, which I think will help. The bushings in my old lateral links were completely shot and bolts frozen. The last shop that aligned the car spun/tore one of the bushings and didn't say a word.

 

Thanks for all suggestions! I found an alignment shop in town that has a newer rack and the ability to use it (the more important of the two). I'm just waiting for my whiteline toe lock bolt kit to arrive tomorrow to button up this project and get it there.

 

When your car is on the rack, stick around for the whole thing. Then you can annoy the heck out of them and learn the magic behind the process.

When your car is on the rack, stick around for the whole thing. Then you can annoy the heck out of them and learn the magic behind the process.

 

I recommend sitting in the car for the whole thing.

I would recommend a little toe in in the rear if this is a daily driven car, especially if you aren't the sole driver.

I would recommend a little toe in in the rear if this is a daily driven car, especially if you aren't the sole driver.

 

This is usually a good idea for most people. For a street car I think around 1/32" of toe-in for the rear is perfect. If you're doing a fair amount of tracking though, the car will rotate easier with zero all around.

 

I wouldn't run less than -1 camber in the rear no matter what. If, for example, all you get is -1 out of the front, run -1 all around.

I wouldn't run less than -1 camber in the rear no matter what. If, for example, all you get is -1 out of the front, run -1 all around.

 

Running the same camber all around will lead to understeer. The front will gain camber much faster than the rear while loading up.

 

Ideally you dial in the front camber and base your rear camber off of that, depending on your application. Probably about half a degree less for DE and a full degree less for AX. A lot depends on driving style and preference. I used to change my front camber at events depending on the course layout.

Running the same camber all around will lead to understeer. The front will gain camber much faster than the rear while loading up.

 

That's not necessarily true, you can't make the blanket statement that equal f/r camber creates understeer without also taking spring rates, damping characteristics, sway bar rates, bushing compliance, and tire compound into account.

 

And while loading the suspension in a turn the front does not gain camber. Unless you're talking about mathematically gaining in value? (i.e., less negative) With a macP front suspension setup, static camber decreases through the travel range, for example, if you have -1.5 degrees in the front static and you load the suspension, the front outer wheel will have an effective dynamic camber less than -1.5, probably around -1 to -1.2 depending on spring rate.

 

Conversely, the multilink rear suspension will gain negative camber as the suspension loads, the more the rear compresses the more negative it goes.

That's not necessarily true, you can't make the blanket statement that equal f/r camber creates understeer without also taking spring rates, damping characteristics, sway bar rates, bushing compliance, and tire compound into account.

 

And while loading the suspension in a turn the front does not gain camber. Unless you're talking about mathematically gaining in value? (i.e., less negative) With a macP front suspension setup, static camber decreases through the travel range, for example, if you have -1.5 degrees in the front static and you load the suspension, the front outer wheel will have an effective dynamic camber less than -1.5, probably around -1 to -1.2 depending on spring rate.

 

Conversely, the multilink rear suspension will gain negative camber as the suspension loads, the more the rear compresses the more negative it goes.

 

Blanket statement? Maybe, but I know that only a degree of negative camber in the front will lead to understeer on the LGT. Of course there's other settings one can change, but we're talking about a weekend warrior from what it sounds like. I wouldn't want to drive something that stiffly sprung (and with the tires to match)on the street, to compensate for the lack of camber.

 

And yes I mean the mcstrut is mathematically gaining camber through turns. As a McStrut compresses it will move from negative camber values towards 0, but this only happens towards the top of its range of motion ie very hard cornering. However, a mcstrut will also gain negative camber as the wheels are turned. How that looks on an LGT, I don't know, I never took the time to model the suspension geometrym nor do i want to . Overall the main culprit for camber gain is body roll. I haven't seen an LGT yet that didn't have some roll, and I've seen my fair share of everything from weekend warriors to very stiff LGT's on A6s.

When dialing in my wagon, we found -2.1 in front & -1.2 in the rear worked really well. Adding more camber in front was needed, however, that would have required custom camber plates. I have upgraded bushings at every spot and under-chassis bracing. Under hard cornering on slicks, the back end was still light and would oversteer very easily.

 

On race car setup, the default camber setup is -3 all around. However, that assumes extremely stiff suspension and no compliance bushings. After a trial, that number is adjusted to suit purpose.

When dialing in my wagon, we found -2.1 in front & -1.2 in the rear worked really well.

 

Is this for a street set up? I'm bringing my car in to AZP on the 15th to finally dial in my Ohlins. I use this car exclusively for long distance trips and hopefully 3+ track days a year starting next year. Raising the dead here.

Finally getting my Whiteline adjustable rear trailing arms put in at Cobb Surgeline next week and looking forward to bumping up my camber in the front now that the rear can be adjusted. Probably looking at -3 ish in the front and closer to -2 in the rear. Keeping the Toe at zero F&R unless someone can chime in with a good reason not to. I’ve got one more track day before putting the car to bed for the season so interested to see how this affects my lap times. Also had considered a corner balance but not sure I want to bleed the extra cash right now. If it’s only going to help me pick up a few tenths is it really worth it?

Is this for a street set up? I'm bringing my car in to AZP on the 15th to finally dial in my Ohlins. I use this car exclusively for long distance trips and hopefully 3+ track days a year starting next year. Raising the dead here.

 

I set my wagon for track using the bfg r1's. I accepted tire wear on the street as an acceptable loss. I still have the same setup today and still incur the same wear rates. I should change it, but its only money... And the settings make for stupid fun.

 

For yer situation, I would adjust for the 90% case. Because the 1% case leads to 5000 mile treadlife.

 

3 track days a year is not going to have much impact on your learning or wear ratings to the point of needing an aggressive setup. I was doing 40+ days a year on my setup, so it paid off.

 

Setup for neutral and similar side-to-side. If you fill your car the way you'll be loading it, it'll help. The shop may balk and the senior tech might need to be involved.

Finally getting my Whiteline adjustable rear trailing arms put in at Cobb Surgeline next week and looking forward to bumping up my camber in the front now that the rear can be adjusted. Probably looking at -3 ish in the front and closer to -2 in the rear. Keeping the Toe at zero F&R unless someone can chime in with a good reason not to. I’ve got one more track day before putting the car to bed for the season so interested to see how this affects my lap times. Also had considered a corner balance but not sure I want to bleed the extra cash right now. If it’s only going to help me pick up a few tenths is it really worth it?

 

unless you are working with a shop or doing it yourself, setting up for the track is not a one&done experience. I had 3 corner balances done before we reached the "more parts/labor money is needed" stage. At that point, I was told to get used to throttle oversteer to apex.

 

The bc c/o were maxed out in front. so i was limited to the settings I had. -3 might be too much especially on a mostly flat track. Normally you'd make a change, drive it, make another change, drive it. repeat until broke or have track record. Last day of the season might be more wise to continue your current settings. Starting next year, start working on settings that work for you.

 

For portland, you could setup for the predominantly right hand turns. Turn 10 would be a bit dicey but the rest would be faster. The mustang had that but it made the straights a pain. ymmv.

 

Carlo said just because you can set -3, doesn't mean you need it. Carlo was a much better driver than me. ymmv

unless you are working with a shop or doing it yourself, setting up for the track is not a one&done experience. I had 3 corner balances done before we reached the "more parts/labor money is needed" stage. At that point, I was told to get used to throttle oversteer to apex.

 

The bc c/o were maxed out in front. so i was limited to the settings I had. -3 might be too much especially on a mostly flat track. Normally you'd make a change, drive it, make another change, drive it. repeat until broke or have track record. Last day of the season might be more wise to continue your current settings. Starting next year, start working on settings that work for you.

 

For portland, you could setup for the predominantly right hand turns. Turn 10 would be a bit dicey but the rest would be faster. The mustang had that but it made the straights a pain. ymmv.

 

Carlo said just because you can set -3, doesn't mean you need it. Carlo was a much better driver than me. ymmv

 

Yup, all it takes is money I've been at -2.0 F / -1.0 R for a number of years so hoping to fine tune what I already have. Since I don't have the luxury, (cash), to run thru multiple set ups I'd definitely opt to use ORP and The Ridge as benchmarks. PIR, while close and convenient, just doesn't really do it for me any more. Its worth the 2hrs drive for a track with elevation changes.

Yup, all it takes is money I've been at -2.0 F / -1.0 R for a number of years so hoping to fine tune what I already have. Since I don't have the luxury, (cash), to run thru multiple set ups I'd definitely opt to use ORP and The Ridge as benchmarks. PIR, while close and convenient, just doesn't really do it for me any more. Its worth the 2hrs drive for a track with elevation changes.

 

The setup I posted was built around the Ridge, so might be a starting point for yers. Or not. The ridge didn't respond well to lots of camber, mostly because the corners loaded up the c/o so much they couldn't handle the bumps. Exiting the carousel and the complex was always a crapshoot. Being off the line a little bit made for a white knuckle ride. I bought the miata not long after, so I never invested fully in the optimal settings.

It's a new year and track days are being posted. What settings did y'all decide on?

+1

 

Also curious on current set ups. Please share in detail your new set up vs. your old.