Question for service advisors w/Subaru Gold Plus warranty experience

I have an '09 LGT that was throwing CEL's for cylinder misfires. Dealer eventually decided that the valves were tight, and gave me the "up to $500 in shims plus major labor $" bad news, and I said OK. They had told me that my $0 deductible Subaru Gold warranty plan wouldn't cover the repair because it was related to adjustment, rather than component failure. My Plan T&C seemed to confirm that info.

When I picked up the car I was told that the tech had discovered that the timing belt idler pulley and two camshaft pulleys were bad (to the point where the service manager said that they could have contributed to the misfires) and had required replacement as well. I suggested to the service manager that the Gold plan should pick up some of the repair. After reluctantly checking with the plan administration the service manager said that the plan would pay for the parts, but not labor because the original diagnosis of tight valves was the reason for the disassembly that uncovered the defective pulleys and that no additional labor was required to replace the pulleys.

I feel that the plan should cover the standalone labor for the pulley(s) replacement (but not the valve adjustment labor that would be above and beyond that amount), because the plan doesn't state some legalese like: "labor is excluded when covered parts are replaced when replacement is performed as overlapping labor during an in-process, non-covered repair."

Any of you service advisors ever encounter this (or a similar) situation, and what was the outcome?

100% guaranteed that the valves weren't "tight".

And Subaru doesn't use shims in the heads anymore.

You got taken for a ride.

The term "shim" came up in the original bad news phone call, but the invoice shows no shims; instead there are 7 camshaft followers (listed as "lifter valve") from 6 different part numbers (incl. 2 of one part #).

1. Is valve adjustment now done by picking a specific size size follower to contact the eccentric on the camshaft, thus correctly cycling the linked valve via the rocker?

2. Is the timing belt tensioner considered to be a 105K miles scheduled replacement part, as is the belt?

3. If cam followers are necessary for valve adjustment, is camshaft removal and replacement required, and if so, are oil seals (5), o-ring (1), and rocker gaskets (6) typically needed as part of that r&r?

Not that I'm the least bit skeptical...

And if anyone can revisit my original question, I'd appreciate it as well!

I am a service manager, not for subaru but another import manufact. Been in the business for 16 yrs., I will give you as much info as I can.

1) All extended plans are pretty much the same, they vary on level or price you purchased for the plan as far as what is covered. In your case, sounds like you purchased the top plan.

2) All extended warranties do not cover maint items, ie: brakes, belts, wipers, tires etc....I have never heard of a tensioner replacement at 105k as a maint item, however check your owners manual or call Subaru Customer Care to be sure. Most of the time, the tensioner is replaced with the timing belt for 2 reasons. 1) The tensioner keeps tension on the belt, if it is weak or leaking, it can allow the belt to jump or even break 2) If you don't replace it and you put a new belt on it, if the tensioner breaks down the road, you will have to pay all the labor to get the belt off again, when it could have been replaced with no additional labor when the belt was replaced because the old belt comes off the tensioner.

3) I should have said this first, did YOU authorized the replacement of the pulley's?? If not, you should not have had to pay for them, plain and simple. You have that little piece of paper called an RO or Repair Order that is a LEGAL binding contract. If you signed and agreed to pay for X, and then you come to pick up the car and the bill is now XY and Z and you did not authorize Y or Z, then you can go to small claims court and win, hands down.

4) If during the repair, they found the cause of the problem and the cause is a covered item, the extended warranty will pay for parts and labor for the repair.

What sounds like happened is, they misdiagnosed the problem and were going to lose their ass on the job so they "said" your plan didnt cover the labor becuase they were going to have to eat some parts and labor. I dont run my store like that, but I hear about it all the time. Hope this helps.

The term "shim" came up in the original bad news phone call, but the invoice shows no shims; instead there are 7 camshaft followers (listed as "lifter valve") from 6 different part numbers (incl. 2 of one part #).

 

1. Is valve adjustment now done by picking a specific size size follower to contact the eccentric on the camshaft, thus correctly cycling the linked valve via the rocker?

 

2. Is the timing belt tensioner considered to be a 105K miles scheduled replacement part, as is the belt?

 

3. If cam followers are necessary for valve adjustment, is camshaft removal and replacement required, and if so, are oil seals (5), o-ring (1), and rocker gaskets (6) typically needed as part of that r&r?

 

Not that I'm the least bit skeptical...

 

And if anyone can revisit my original question, I'd appreciate it as well!

1) yes

2) yes

3) yes

No offense BAC5.2, i just looked on subaru.com under "My Subaru", no the tensioner is not a maint item. The timing belt is, but not the tensioner.

And I've been working with Subarus for more than a decade. Replace the tensioner with the belt, or replace it when it fails (along with the belt) a few thousand miles later.

9/10 shops won't do a timing belt without a tensioner.

Exeter Subaru?

I'm not going that route, in part because I'm still "in process" trying to figure this out, and also because I've seen many threads here where someone complains about a specific dealer and soon you have page after page of lynch mob vs. dealer employee with zero resolution but incredible ill will.

I am a service manager, not for subaru but another import manufact. Been in the business for 16 yrs., I will give you as much info as I can.

 

1) All extended plans are pretty much the same, they vary on level or price you purchased for the plan as far as what is covered. In your case, sounds like you purchased the top plan.

 

2) All extended warranties do not cover maint items, ie: brakes, belts, wipers, tires etc....I have never heard of a tensioner replacement at 105k as a maint item, however check your owners manual or call Subaru Customer Care to be sure. Most of the time, the tensioner is replaced with the timing belt for 2 reasons. 1) The tensioner keeps tension on the belt, if it is weak or leaking, it can allow the belt to jump or even break 2) If you don't replace it and you put a new belt on it, if the tensioner breaks down the road, you will have to pay all the labor to get the belt off again, when it could have been replaced with no additional labor when the belt was replaced because the old belt comes off the tensioner.

 

3) I should have said this first, did YOU authorized the replacement of the pulley's?? If not, you should not have had to pay for them, plain and simple. You have that little piece of paper called an RO or Repair Order that is a LEGAL binding contract. If you signed and agreed to pay for X, and then you come to pick up the car and the bill is now XY and Z and you did not authorize Y or Z, then you can go to small claims court and win, hands down.

 

4) If during the repair, they found the cause of the problem and the cause is a covered item, the extended warranty will pay for parts and labor for the repair.

 

What sounds like happened is, they misdiagnosed the problem and were going to lose their ass on the job so they "said" your plan didnt cover the labor becuase they were going to have to eat some parts and labor. I dont run my store like that, but I hear about it all the time. Hope this helps.

Here's why I'm looking for service advisor feedback:

Since I don't have a surveillance video of their "tight valves" diagnostics, I don't have much choice but to accept that they did the adjustment and to move on to what is not resolved in my mind: what my Subaru Gold Plus plan should cover and what it should not.

The dealer has said that my plan will cover all defective parts identified during the valve adjustment RO, but not labor because the valve tightness caused the CEL and to replace the other parts required no extra labor. My 180 degree opposite take is that the plan should pay for the labor to repair any defective parts because the valve cover had to come off anyway to diagnose the CEL and those defective parts would have been identified during camshaft removal and before the first new cam follower was installed. So if at that point the dealer had called the plan administrator and said "I have two defective camshaft sprockets and a defective timing belt pulley" the full repair should have been approved including the labor, and I should have been responsible only for the difference in price between the two standalone service charges less any duplicate part costs.

Has anyone encountered this kind of quirky situation?

No service advisor will know what "your" plan will cover. Call your service contract's 800 number and ask them what was covered on your repair, that's the only way to know what was covered on the repair since the dealer is not being honest with you.

But, you have already answered your own question, if a PART is covered, then LABOR is covered.

No service advisor will know what "your" plan will cover. Call your service contract's 800 number and ask them what was covered on your repair, that's the only way to know what was covered on the repair since the dealer is not being honest with you.

 

But, you have already answered your own question, if a PART is covered, then LABOR is covered.

I am a service manager, not for subaru but another import manufact.

Thanks for your generic reply. I have talked to several non-local Subaru service managers about my Subaru plan since my post, and they all agree that if the repair order as submitted for reimbursement is written for the combined adjustment and defective part replacement work then the labor might well be denied, but if written under separate repair orders and submitted only under the defective part replacement RO then the full claim will probably be paid.

As for calling the 800 #, that often recreates the CitiBank ad where the drone-like guy is sitting at a desk, repeatedly answering the phone, saying "NO", and hanging up. I want to have the best possible understanding of my position in order to make the most compelling argument if I do have to call the 800 #. I talked to the service manager today and he may actually be more inclined to see things my way now. I should know soon if I will have to bypass the dealer and deal directly with the Plan peeps.

I am curious how the LGT valves can get out of adjustment unless the original cam followers wear prematurely. Any ideas there?

I have an '09 LGT that was throwing CEL's for cylinder misfires. Dealer eventually decided that the valves were tight, and gave me the "up to $500 in shims plus major labor $" bad news, and I said OK. They had told me that my $0 deductible Subaru Gold warranty plan wouldn't cover the repair because it was related to adjustment, rather than component failure. My Plan T&C seemed to confirm that info.

 

When I picked up the car I was told that the tech had discovered that the timing belt idler pulley and two camshaft pulleys were bad (to the point where the service manager said that they could have contributed to the misfires) and had required replacement as well. I suggested to the service manager that the Gold plan should pick up some of the repair. After reluctantly checking with the plan administration the service manager said that the plan would pay for the parts, but not labor because the original diagnosis of tight valves was the reason for the disassembly that uncovered the defective pulleys and that no additional labor was required to replace the pulleys.

 

I feel that the plan should cover the standalone labor for the pulley(s) replacement (but not the valve adjustment labor that would be above and beyond that amount), because the plan doesn't state some legalese like: "labor is excluded when covered parts are replaced when replacement is performed as overlapping labor during an in-process, non-covered repair."

 

Any of you service advisors ever encounter this (or a similar) situation, and what was the outcome?

I'll start this out by saying I'm NOT a service manager, but I'm VERY familiar with the Subaru product, it's maintenance schedule, and the Gold Plus plan.

100% guaranteed that the valves weren't "tight".

 

And Subaru doesn't use shims in the heads anymore.

 

You got taken for a ride.

BAC hit it on the head. The Legacy does not use shims in the head. I have an exploded parts view if you want to see it. The fact is, the valves will become LOOSE over time, not tight and it will take a long time to do this (unless you are not following other PM procedures). The mechanic that diagnosed your car does not know what he's talking about. He could have said there were gnomes in your car causing the problem and used that as defense that he went to look for them and you should be charged.

The term "shim" came up in the original bad news phone call, but the invoice shows no shims; instead there are 7 camshaft followers (listed as "lifter valve") from 6 different part numbers (incl. 2 of one part #).

 

1. Is valve adjustment now done by picking a specific size size follower to contact the eccentric on the camshaft, thus correctly cycling the linked valve via the rocker?

 

2. Is the timing belt tensioner considered to be a 105K miles scheduled replacement part, as is the belt?

 

3. If cam followers are necessary for valve adjustment, is camshaft removal and replacement required, and if so, are oil seals (5), o-ring (1), and rocker gaskets (6) typically needed as part of that r&r?

 

Not that I'm the least bit skeptical...

 

And if anyone can revisit my original question, I'd appreciate it as well!

1) Yes - There are approx 100 different part numbers for different thickness followers. There is NO WAY they ordered the correct thickness followers for your car unless they removed the valve cover, checked the clearances, and then removed the camshafts prior to them ordering them.

2) Not really - The tensioner should be changed at the 105K with the timing belt, but not all dealers do. The only thing the is required to be changed is the belt itself, but it is a good idea to change the tensioner while you are in there as BAC mentioned. The tensioner and cam gears ARE covered under your Gold Plus plan for 6 years or 100K miles.

3) If valve clearances fall out of tolerance, step #2 in the procedure for "adjustment" is to remove the camshafts, however they do not need to be replaced. You measure the thickness of the worn follower and add it to the clearance found and then determine the correct thickness follower needed out of the near 100 part numbers offered.

I am curious how the LGT valves can get out of adjustment unless the original cam followers wear prematurely. Any ideas there?

EXACTLY! Ask the dealer to show you the service interval for valve adjustment in your warranty/maintenance manual. They won't find it because it's not in there because there isn't one! All of the work you had done should be covered under the gold plus plan.

Here's my theory... They mis-diagnosed the car has having bad valve clearance. They ordered the parts and put in the wrench time and found out they didn't need them are are now stuck with the bill because Subaru told them that they screwed up and will not cover their mistake. They are trying to pass this cost onto you so they don't have to eat it.

How many miles are on your car anyway?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksnh

 

I am curious how the LGT valves can get out of adjustment unless the original cam followers wear prematurely. Any ideas there?

 

EXACTLY! Ask the dealer to show you the service interval for valve adjustment in your warranty/maintenance manual. They won't find it because it's not in there because there isn't one! All of the work you had done should be covered under the gold plus plan.

 

Here's my theory... They mis-diagnosed the car has having bad valve clearance. They ordered the parts and put in the wrench time and found out they didn't need them are are now stuck with the bill because Subaru told them that they screwed up and will not cover their mistake. They are trying to pass this cost onto you so they don't have to eat it.

 

How many miles are on your car anyway?

My car just turned 98K, and my agreement is to 5 years/100K.

Terms and Conditions of the Gold Plus Plan:

The Gold plan admin's interpretation of "normal" is the core issue; while I sure as hell don't see major valve adjustment before 100K miles as "normal", they may disagree. None of the other listed exclusions seem to be anywhere near the scope of the valve adjustment, so I would agree with you that it would seem to be covered. But that "seem" is why I was hoping to page someone to the forum who had fought that (or a very similar) battle with the plan admin, and learn their outcome.

I'm not going that route, in part because I'm still "in process" trying to figure this out, and also because I've seen many threads here where someone complains about a specific dealer and soon you have page after page of lynch mob vs. dealer employee with zero resolution but incredible ill will.

I forgot that happens and you are right.

Hopefully you got something out of your extended warranty plan in its time period besides a $1000+ piece of paper.

valves becoming loose with age.. yes and no.. if the valve seats wear the valve will move up into the head as it is common on titanium valve motors like my honda crf 450 dirtbike. the valve lash becomes so tight the engine becomes difficult to start.

yes the lgt does not have shims. but the 1 peice followers. but you call call them shims for arguments sake there more than a shim but they are size matched.

but i don't think the valves became tight. and for them to be tight enough to cause missfire and not a burned valve .. i don't believe that.

you could have a valve or a two on their way out ie ready to melt and burn and they just delayed the death of them.

but them saying that valve adjustment on a dohc subaru being a maintence item .. uh .. no. its either working or broken.

i wouldn't be surprised that this service manager would say if you had a rod knock its a simple adjustment of crank shaft clearance requiring a new crank and rod and bearing. and they say its not warranty because its an adjustment of clearance.

as for the cam sprockets .. they probably broke them taking it apart.