05+ Driving on thin ice/snow

"if you have 2, 4, or 1000 tires on slippery snow you will not have traction."

Don't get mad, get better tires! Rally cars do 60+ on snow/ice without much trouble. It's all about having the right equipment, skills, and most importantly knowing the limits of your car.

5,000lb. vehicles with summer tires trying to turn or stop on a dime...that's when the trouble starts. And yeah, they make me mad too. Driving around yesterday (ice and ice pellets), the only cars slid out on the side of the road were SUVs.

the only cars slid out on the side of the road were SUVs.

Nope, I don't believe it. no way jose. SUV's are invincible!

j/k funny what you say is true. always the suvs on the side of the road in bad weather.

I drove from san clemente to LA a few weeks ago in the RAIN. SEVEN... that's right 7 accidents in the first 30 minutes. I think 2 were not suvs...

I do not own an Outback, however, I did push one really hard during a test drive. The ass end is HEAVY. I tried throwing it around a sharp corner at high speed and I could feel the back end trying real hard to get in front of the front end. That is ultimately why I did not buy an Outback. Very nice vehicle otherwise.

If your speed and direction is constant, the issue I described above should not be a problem. It would only become a problem during braking.

strike

Thanks for the replys. Tirerack.com has them (M3) highly rated so like always it depends who you ask. What's nice about Tirerack's data is that it's ratings system is based on real life owners of the product.

 

I have had the car aligned and there wasn't anything major that was off (minor adustments). Subaru must know something is wrong since they just issued a technical update on changes to the spec for the rear alignment and to make sure rear tires are at 30psi with no load <200 LBS. and 37.5 when greated then 200 LBS.

 

If you go to http://www.subaruoutback.org/ there's a very active thread on this topic. Do a search for "05 Outback and Newer DANGEROUS ON THIN ICE". I didn't start the thread but have experernced the issue.

 

I own a 98 Legacy also and driving the same road, same conditions, and it's a night and day difference. The 98 is safe and secure. The 05 is a handful. I drive around 40K a year for busines in all types of conditions (company car and not a Subaru). So I'm aware how to drive in these conditions (and don't expect to drive on thin snow/ice conditions the same as dry pavement) but when other car/trucks are passing you left and right, and to keep the car safe you need to stay way below the speed the other traffic is traveling, there's an issue (and I beleive its with the car).

 

The bases of me asking this here was to determine if there's a difference with the 05 and newer Legacy's compared to the Outbacks.

Eh? My 2006 LGT and my 92 Eagle Talon are not like that at all. They are both AWD and both handle awesomely in the snow. As a matter of fact, 2 years ago, I had to drive up to Denver in the middle of a snowstorm with summer performance tires on my Talon. I left my friend in his Lancer Evolution with Blizzaks in the dust (snow actually) and I thought I was being careful. There were cars and semis and such strewn all over the sides of I25 but I had no issues. God forbid I would have been driving my LGT with quality M+S tires on it. I would have had to wait over a half hour, rather than 10 minutes, for my friend then. (the Evo handles great too. My friend was too paranoid and not skillful enough)

In short, I am calling out your driving style if you think all AWD cars have the issues the Outback has.

strike

Every AWD car I have ever driven is said in conditions is like this. It is what it is.

Oooooo. My wife bought a 240SX years ago. Oh my god was that thing horrible when perfect driving conditions were not available. She flew off the road so many times it scared me. Thankfully, she drove at 10mph (in the snow) so she was never hurt but I sold that piece of crap as soon as I could. I later found out that I could have added a LSD to the rear which would have GREATLY improved its handling in limited traction conditions.

strike

My '07 Nismo Frontier over steered. It died at 9812 miles from stepping the rear end out, at 60 MPH on the freeway, in the wet and kissing the median with its a**. I can usually control a sideways sliding vehicle (Had a Nissan 240SX that loved to fish tail even in the dry.), but it becomes really hard to control a 4700 lbs. 4x4 at 60 MPH, going sideways. I was hoping that the LGT was better, so far no problems.

A piece of advice when you know your traction is about to hit 0. Do not let up on the gas. Well, you can let up on it a little bit, but if the tires do not turn at the same speed you are travelling, you are going to spin out of control. This advice does not apply if your traction is 10% or better.

strike

I experienced the tail wagging problem on my 2005 LGT wagon a couple weeks ago. The wagon has Michelin Pilot Sport tires and was lightly loaded with one passenger, 2 snowboard and ski jackets. The highway has been plowed and was completely dry. The temperature was around 20deg. Every car/truck was going at the speed limit of 55mph.

As I was approaching an overpass, I noticed a patch of ice spanning the width of the road directly under a bridge. The road section was perfectly straight, so I reduced the throttle slightly to let the car ride over the ice. The car was composed as the front wheels moved onto the ice. When all four wheels were on the ice patch, the rear started swinging in a left and right motion with the pivot point at the engine compartment. When the car moved back to dry pavement, it regained composure immediately.

At no point did it felt like the tail end was going to spin around but it was disconcerting.

Jeepers! I am all over this thread now. Sorry folks. I just LOVE winter driving though.

I have some advice for you (which you are free to ignore of course). Whenever I suspect that traction conditions may be changing, I apply my brakes to verify my traction. If traction is good, I will slow down from 60 to 40 (example numbers) very quickly. If traction is bad, the anti-lock brakes will kick in rapidly. I then adjust my driving speed and style accordingly. Do not try this on a turn or if someone is right behind you.

strike

This past Thursday, I was driving a friend up from NJ to VT (Mt Snow area). It was about 2, maybe 2.30am when unknown to me, the rain that was falling started to freeze and left a small layer of ice on the roads.

 

The first sign that I felt was from the front end of the car when I was going at about 50mph. It felt like it was hydroplaning slightly when I was going around corners. From there, I was able to go a few more miles (and about 2-3 minutes later) when I definitely felt the loss of traction. I don't remember what ticked me off to that, but I immediately started to slow down and traveled at a crawl of 10-15mph, just hoping to make it to the house (which was about 18 miles away).

 

From that point, I was able to drive for another minute or two until we made it up a hill and I saw a tractor trailer off on the wrong side of the road, as if it had skidded off and ended up in the left guard rail. It was finally there that we decided to stop, call it a night, and park the car off as far as I could in the right gravel shoulder (to keep myself from sliding down the hill or whatever). After we stopped, I stepped out of the car to get some stuff from the trunk and almost slipped. The ENTIRE road surface was covered in a sheet of ice probably 1/8" thick.

 

Anyways, enough of the story and back to the point. It was only at the end when I slowed down/stopped at the sight of the trailer and when I tried to bring my car to a safe parking spot off the side of the road did the rear ever push forward. However, it was nothing that wasn't easily controllable with a little bit of opposite steering.

 

Without the AWD given to us in these cars, there is no way I would have made it as far as I did and it probably would have been much worse off when I first noticed the signs going around the bends (if I was in a FWD car).

I later found out that I could have added a LSD to the rear which would have GREATLY improved its handling in limited traction conditions.

 

strike

An LSD is no real compensation for improving handling. Especially on a RWD car.

It may help to get the traction down, but won't do much when the rear end comes loose.

If the roads are covered in snow and you are driving 45 mph dont complain about anything that your car does. just because it is AWD people think you can just fly around like its a panzer tank. newsflash........its not! it will be better than a RWD or RWD car but its not bulletproof. snow and ice cause your to slide out. if you have 2, 4, or 1000 tires on slippery snow you will not have traction. AWD is good because if 2 tires done have traction the other 2 MIGHT. jeez this makes me mad.

Again - missing the point. When you're crawling along at 30 mph with an eery "ghostwalking" phenomenon and every car around you is confidently going 20 mph faster... somethings amiss.

Every idiot knows if you stomp on the gas, yank the steering wheel, or ham the brakes, even AWD will spin in the snow. Got it. Not news to me (and others).

The issue we're discussing here is more subtle, and if you haven't experienced it, you just don't get it, so save your snide commentary.

Could presence of rear LSD explain such behaviour?

If it locks/unlocks it may cause some side to side movements I think.

 

Krzys

Good question...I was wondering that myself.

Although not an AWD or a Subaru, I used to borrow my old roommate's bmw 320i which had a rear LSD and that's exactly how it behaved in snowy conditions--even on flat road surfaces. Even when driving at slower speeds, you could feel the LSD shifting power between the rear wheels which had a tendency to make the rear want to kick out.

I haven't taken note how many of the people who belive they've experienced this problem had a rear LSD in their Subarus, but it does sound plausible.

Another possibility: I'm running WinterForce M+S (studded) tires, and I have noticed the rear in my OBXT has seemed a little more tail-happy than normal this season (even on snowy roads) since I began running higher-than-recommended tire pressure in an attempt to have slightly better dry handling and better gas mileage. Although the higher tire pressure reduces the contact patch, it also makes the tire harder and less able to grip a slippery surface. Combined with the rear LSD and the fact the rear of the car has less of the vehicle's weight than the front....sounds like a recipe for 'slippage', eh?

Thoughts anyone?

Tim

An LSD is no real compensation for improving handling. Especially on a RWD car.

It may help to get the traction down, but won't do much when the rear end comes loose.

I'll take it one step further and go on record as saying "a rear LSD can help cause the rear end to come loose" on a slippery surface because it's constantly shifting power back and forth between the left and right wheels in an attempt to reduce slippage. If the road is slippery enough, the transfer of torque between sides can actually cause the back end to lose all traction, e.g., become "tail happy". And after thinking about this a while, I'll betcha' over-inflated tires would amplify this situation.

If you talk to any hard core off-roaders, they'll tell you an open differential is the best thing to have on icy surfaces because there is no transfer of torque which can cause the vehicle's stability to shift suddenly.

Tim

Still seems to be a problem with Outbacks:

http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/showthread.php?postid=157224#post157224

Oooooo. My wife bought a 240SX years ago. Oh my god was that thing horrible when perfect driving conditions were not available. She flew off the road so many times it scared me. Thankfully, she drove at 10mph (in the snow) so she was never hurt but I sold that piece of crap as soon as I could. I later found out that I could have added a LSD to the rear which would have GREATLY improved its handling in limited traction conditions.

 

strike

Many years ago, I had the predecessor to the 240...the 200sx (the V6 model with a whopping 160 hp... woo hoo!). Was a great car, but I'd agree with your wife's assessment in the snow...until I put snow tires on it, and about 100 lbs of weight in the rear hatch. That turned it into a tank.

If I can't have AWD I've always preferred RWD with snows and weight over FWD personally.

Tim

I do not own an Outback, however, I did push one really hard during a test drive. The ass end is HEAVY. I tried throwing it around a sharp corner at high speed and I could feel the back end trying real hard to get in front of the front end. That is ultimately why I did not buy an Outback. Very nice vehicle otherwise.

 

If your speed and direction is constant, the issue I described above should not be a problem. It would only become a problem during braking.

 

strike

Wow, just realized this is an old post...I thought I was subscribed to this thread, but maybe not!

Not sure exactly what the F/R weight ratio is in the OB, but I'm wondering if what you felt might've also been the result of the poorly matched suspension combined with typical behavior of many AWD systems. I know when I do any hard cornering in my OBXT (which I don't do often because it's not pleasurable), the rear end definitely sways big time....that along with the rear wheels pushing at the same time feels like your arse is about to pass your front!

Tim

Eh? My 2006 LGT and my 92 Eagle Talon are not like that at all. They are both AWD and both handle awesomely in the snow. As a matter of fact, 2 years ago, I had to drive up to Denver in the middle of a snowstorm with summer performance tires on my Talon. I left my friend in his Lancer Evolution with Blizzaks in the dust (snow actually) and I thought I was being careful. There were cars and semis and such strewn all over the sides of I25 but I had no issues. God forbid I would have been driving my LGT with quality M+S tires on it. I would have had to wait over a half hour, rather than 10 minutes, for my friend then. (the Evo handles great too. My friend was too paranoid and not skillful enough)

 

In short, I am calling out your driving style if you think all AWD cars have the issues the Outback has.

 

 

strike

yeah....you're driving skills must be the shit....

...or you may just be a dumbass for thinking you can use a Talon AWD with summer tires and drive faster than an Evo with proper snow tires.

Eh? My 2006 LGT and my 92 Eagle Talon are not like that at all. They are both AWD and both handle awesomely in the snow. As a matter of fact, 2 years ago, I had to drive up to Denver in the middle of a snowstorm with summer performance tires on my Talon. I left my friend in his Lancer Evolution with Blizzaks in the dust (snow actually) and I thought I was being careful. There were cars and semis and such strewn all over the sides of I25 but I had no issues. God forbid I would have been driving my LGT with quality M+S tires on it. I would have had to wait over a half hour, rather than 10 minutes, for my friend then. (the Evo handles great too. My friend was too paranoid and not skillful enough)

 

In short, I am calling out your driving style if you think all AWD cars have the issues the Outback has.

 

 

strike

:lol::lol::lol:

I have an 05 Outback Sedan 3.0 and it seems that the rear end is always breaking lose (very unsecure feeling) when driving on thin black ice or snow conditions at highway speed (above 50 MPH). This topic is pretty hot on the Outback Fourm,.............

Looks like Subaru is aware of this problem, because for 2010 the Outback has a new rear suspension.

From the Subaru press release:

"........A new rear double wishbone suspension improves chassis dynamics ..."

Looks like Subaru is aware of this problem, because for 2010 the Outback has a new rear suspension.

 

From the Subaru press release:

 

"........A new rear double wishbone suspension improves chassis dynamics ..."

Not really. It's more an issue of updating the suspension to a newer and better design. I doubt Subaru would say their BP/BL vehicles have handling issues. This thread was finally dead too.

I find this thread interesting...

Coming from a powersports background I'll share my .02 on this one.

Polaris Sportsman ATVs after 04.5 all have electronic engaging front diffs, and when being ridden on glare ice will display almost this exact behavior in the front end. What is happening on the ATVs is that the front diff is speed and torque sensing; while in 4x4 mode when the front wheels are moving at the same speed as the rears, the diff remains open so that the rider feels no change in ride quality. As soon as one of the front wheels falls a 1/10 of a rotation behind the speed of the rear wheels the front diff will send power to that side and start feeling for any back torque (traction) on that wheel. If it doesn't feel any back torque it will shoot power to the opposite side and look for traction there. If there isn't enough traction on that wheel, the diff becomes confused and will continually shift power between the two front wheels looking for traction causing a really unsettling 'wiggle' until one of the fronts once again finds traction. On an atv this doesn't occur in the rear because the real is always a locked diff. The interesting thing is that the front diff on the Polaris works pretty much flawlessly in all other conditions. (well providing it isn't broken, it is a Polaris)

I know this isn't too very scientific, but I wonder if something similar is happening here...

I find this thread interesting...

 

Coming from a powersports background I'll share my .02 on this one.

 

Polaris Sportsman ATVs after 04.5 all have electronic engaging front diffs, and when being ridden on glare ice will display almost this exact behavior in the front end. What is happening on the ATVs is that the front diff is speed and torque sensing; while in 4x4 mode when the front wheels are moving at the same speed as the rears, the diff remains open so that the rider feels no change in ride quality. As soon as one of the front wheels falls a 1/10 of a rotation behind the speed of the rear wheels the front diff will send power to that side and start feeling for any back torque (traction) on that wheel. If it doesn't feel any back torque it will shoot power to the opposite side and look for traction there. If there isn't enough traction on that wheel, the diff becomes confused and will continually shift power between the two front wheels looking for traction causing a really unsettling 'wiggle' until one of the fronts once again finds traction. On an atv this doesn't occur in the rear because the real is always a locked diff. The interesting thing is that the front diff on the Polaris works pretty much flawlessly in all other conditions. (well providing it isn't broken, it is a Polaris)

 

I know this isn't too very scientific, but I wonder if something similar is happening here...

:)Loved your way of putting it. As a Polaris Sportsman guy myself, I could relate. It's funny how many other work machines offer what is "3.5" wheel drive as Polaris puts it.