Winter Tire Choices for the 2010 Winter

It's coming....snow, that is.

So for all of you north of the Mason/ Dixon, those Denver folks, and to all my Canadian counterparts- what tires have you used recently, and how did you like them? How do you find the wear? How are they on different surfaces like snow covered, dry or icy roads?

I've been hunting thru places like Tire rack, and have read a bit of what's available online.

If there is a thread of this nature- please point it out.

Thanks

WS60 for the last 2 winters. Good in almost all conditions - except for slush. They wear out very quickly.

Hakka R is coming this week.

Any winter tire will be better than all seasons. You can never go wrong with Blizzaks of any type ws60 and 70 are more popular. I've heard great things about the Nokian Hakkapellita (sp?).

If you're on a budget, the General Altimax are good tires for the money.

I personally went with the Hankook Icebear as a performance winter tire. They're about $60-75 cheaper than blizzaks, but from everyone I've talked to, they have all the performance capabilities. But the weather is still cooperating with my summer tires (lows in the upper 40s at night, 70ish daytime high) so I haven't been able to try them out for a personal opinion.

^ For some reason, the 'Kooks - be it the IceBear or the iPike - always rank pretty low in their respective sub-categories, in various European testing.

Yet, they're still very heavily favored among Subaru owners.

My best guess? The AWD is compensating for a lot of the shortcomings of the tires: enough so that, based on the cost : performance ratio, the end-user is more than satisfied.

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Jimaa66 - Here's some recommended reading:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2010-winter-tire-tests-146153.html

^ Take that, and bookmark it for reference.

Then start with some background reading.....

Top-tier:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/winters-coming-145158.html

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/anyone-planning-trying-out-blizzak-ws-70i-142223.html

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/winter-tire-recommendation-145369.html

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/recommended-tires-canadian-winter-142372.html

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/change-winter-tires-145259.html

Secondary:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/size-blizzacksi-146744.html

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/which-dunlop-m3-3di-146966.html

After you've digested all of that, you'll either have come to your own conclusions - or you'll be back here ready to duke-out the nitty-gritty with some of us winter-tire nuts.

But be warned, if you come back to the mats, we'll talk (type) your ears (eyes) off (out).

We *love* winter tires.

I think that TSi+WRX is winter-tire snowball not a nut.

Krzys

:-)

PS "You can never go wrong with Blizzaks of any type " <- I would disagree. If you wear your tires quickly and used all their proprietary compound (multicell ?) before hitting ice then you have wrong tires for the job (or you kept perfect tires past their prime). Blizzaks are compromises too.

I think that TSi+WRX is winter-tire snowball not a nut.

 

Krzys

 

:-)

:lol: True, true.

Snowballs we are, then!

PS "You can never go wrong with Blizzaks of any type " <- I would disagree. If you wear your tires quickly and used all their proprietary compound (multicell ?) before hitting ice then you have wrong tires for the job (or you kept perfect tires past their prime). Blizzaks are compromises too.

^ As-usual, brother krzyss picks up on the details.

Indeed, asking for a Blizzak is like going to Baskin Robins and asking for ice-cream. There are more and less-suitable choices within the Blizzak line, for any one driver's specific purposes and goals.

I have Dunlop Graspic DS-2 winter tires on my Forester XT, not bad but noisy. I bought them used a few years ago and they've held up well.

I had the dealer install me Nokian Hakkappalitta Rs on my new Legacy. They feel great. Very quiet, but I can't yet speak to snow/ice performance, it's too early in the season.

^ If all the reviews/tests are at all correct, your experience with the Rs will blow you away.

Even the DS-3s show that Dunlop still has yet to hit the mark, when it comes to the "Studless Ice & Snow" sub-genre.

Strange, given how well the 3D was - and continue to be - received.

Thank you for all the info. I need the reading, for sure. Thanks TSI for all the links. I knew I missed the mark when hunting for help earlier.

And as for Blizzaks? If you like a tire that wears out in its second season- have at it. Largely over-rated. Had them a long while back...simply was so disappointed. And no - I didn't beat them to death,or drive thru summer on 'em.

I'm looking and Conti's, Dunlop's, and Michelin. But wanna be sure.

And I'll tell you this- I will be buying in the States, and sending them up here- Canadian dealers should smarten up...

Hmmm...Nokian hey? Hmmm...more reading needed....

Thanks TSI for all the links. I knew I missed the mark when hunting for help earlier.

NP. It's easier when you know what threads to look for.

And as for Blizzaks? If you like a tire that wears out in its second season- have at it. Largely over-rated. Had them a long while back...simply was so disappointed. And no - I didn't beat them to death,or drive thru summer on 'em.

The treadwear of the through-and-through compounded "Performance Winters" don't seem to be that far off from their competitors....however, the dual-layer'ed "Studless Ice & Snows" did tend (don't know about the new WS70) to see faster wear.

Actually, 2-3 winters is a pretty good life span for studless tires. Remember, traction = friction, and friction = wear.

IMO, if they save your donkey once - they have paid for themselves. In other words, is your life worth extra $XX/year?

Actually, 2-3 winters is a pretty good life span for studless tires. Remember, traction = friction, and friction = wear.

^ I think what's missing in the equation here is exactly what kind of mileage is expected of "a season."

This can differ greatly, from someone commuting 10 or even only 5 miles a day and typically undertaking no wintertime trips, to someone who must commute 40+ miles per day *and* makes even longer-distance trips to meet their wintersports needs.

The actual time-span that the tires are on-car can also vary "per season" - and this itself may tie well in to the tire's actual mileage.

A final part of the equation is also just how roughly the tires are treated: particularly in the warmer transition seasons prior to the actual hard-set winter (or if the tire's routinely taken out of its "winter" element: i.e. trips to wintersports destinations, from a driver who lives in a relatively mild-winter area).

To have a valid complaint against a tire's wear characteristics, the actual mileage traveled needs to be a part of that discussion, as well as any extenuating circumstances taken into account.

True enough. But i wouldn't have said what I did if I had beaten the crap outta them...!

Regardless, I don't think less than 2 seasons works for me. I always run winters, and never have gotten less than 3 seasons. Mileage, abuse, even loading will make a difference- agree. And believe me, i respect the opinons i hear in this house far more than many from the "experts" out there.

So for me, Bilzzaks will not get my money again. Maybe it's narrow of me, but once bitten...

I have had great experience with a set of Dunlops I bought for my truck (before my wagon). They worked great in the conditions I see up here in Ontario, and have me wondering what Dunlops would be like on this car.

Now TSI...error....an anyone else throwin' an opinion...what would you use? City driving...slush, snow, and black ice...temps from 40 down to -30. What would you shell out cash for? Michelin Xi2's? Dunlop 3D's or 3M's? Nokians? Conti Wintercontacts? Maybe Generals?

What would you pony up for and put on your Scoob?

So for me, Bilzzaks will not get my money again. Maybe it's narrow of me, but once bitten...

I have had great experience with a set of Dunlops I bought for my truck (before my wagon). They worked great in the conditions I see up here in Ontario, and have me wondering what Dunlops would be like on this car.

^ Be careful with that line of thought....

Although I can certainly understand - and sympathize with - the "once bitten, twice shy" as well as the "I used X brand once, and they were great, so I'm looking more at them, again" lines of thinking (particularly when tires are so friggin' expensive ), I also must urge extreme caution when using this kind of mindset when it comes to tires.

Tires is a game where the technology is constantly evolving, and tire-makers spend untold amounts of money to bring out - hopefully - a product that's not only a better evolution of what they have in-stores now, but also what they hope will gain them that coveted "top-dog" spot in the open market.

Winter tires are no exception to this rule: rarely will you find last year's comparo-winner still sitting pretty at the top of the pyramid in the years that follow.

Of your Bridgestones, Jimaa66, do you remember, specifically, what you had?

As for the Dunlops, look at the disparity between how well-received their top-tier "Performance Winter," the SP WinterSport 3D, have been versus their "Studless Ice & Snow," the Graspic DS-3, which have, along with their predecessor, the DS-2, always been at the bottom of its sub-genre.

The danger lies in generalizing too much.

It's OK to think the way you do - "avoiding" a certain brand/make is almost never a problem, in and of itself, as there's always plenty of good choices that hang around.

But be especially careful that in generalizing a "good" experience you have had, you don't get too sucked-in to the "brand mystique" marketing fairytale, and end up with a tire that's not worth its full retail price.

Now TSI

I'm currently on a set of nearing half-worn 3Ds on my '05 Legacy 2.5GT 5MT. My wife's '09 FXT is on a set of near-full-depth Xi2s, heading into their 3rd season. This will be the 4th season I've had my 3Ds, which now have approx. 10K miles on them; I drive the snot out of them in the warmer weeks of the transition seasons. My wife's Xi2s, conservatively, have only approx. 6K miles on them, and they are driven easily.

I have a set of Pirelli Winter Carving studdeds in the garage, waiting to come out to play between late-December and mid-February.

...what would you use? City driving...slush, snow, and black ice...temps from 40 down to -30.

^ That's precisely the question: what are the conditions that you're most likely to face.

Different tires have different strengths and weaknesses, and you'll want to choose a tire that matches that per your personal preferences.

Taking my personal selection as an example:

I chose "Performance Winters" for my vehicle because I wanted to have a tire that would perform more like a set of good all-seasons when the weather is warmer and/or clear (wet or dry). Towards this end, I was willing to suffer with compromised mobility when there's more wintry precipitation on the roadways. My commute is virtually all city/dense-suburbs, where municipal plows do an excellent job on main thoroughfares in all but the worst of the rare "Lake Effect" conditions, and since my job's times are my own to manipulate, I won't necessarily need to be out before the plows come through. This allows me to make my compromises.

With my wife, I decided to equip her vehicle with a set of "Studless Ice and Snow" tires so that she would have a larger safety margin when the weather was truly at its worst. Since she's not an aggressive or "fun" driver otherwise, there was no worry about how the tire would "perform" in clear conditions. Again, these specific factors allowed for clear compromises to be made.

You have to figure out what your exact needs are - and what your wants/preferences may do to cause you to compromise on those needs.

If my wife and I were to switch setups, neither of us would be very happy. She'd have more sliding in the deeper powder and on icier surfaces, and I'd complain bitterly and persistently about the imprecise feel of the car.

Figure out what your needs are, then seek a tire from there.

Studded tires are illegal in Southern Onterrible, otherwise it would have been Hakka 7.

I was choosing between WS70 and Hakka R. The local dealer (Coast Tire) offered a good discount on the latter, so they got my money - they even managed to beat the TireRack pricing on WS70 (after shipping, duty, and taxes).

Personally, I don't think that the difference between top-of-the-line Nokian/Bridgestone/Conti/Michelins of the same type (stud/less) would be that great (they never report ANOVA details in those tire tests). I would not expect any studless tire to perform [well enough to my taste] after more than 2-3 winters or 15-25k km, depending on the temperature (anything >+10C = murder) and driving style. It might as well be possible that I simply like buying new toys though...

In the warm and sunny Siberia 90% people prefer studded tires, Nokian Hakka/Gislaved NordFrost/local brands, in that order. It may be just the expectation that Scandinavians should know about the white stuff

Edit: Conti TS series were designed for mild European winters. Stay away from those.

Ya gotta love this place....

All good points.

Thank you all for such good dialogue.

As I've said before, this place never ceases to amaze me, with all the tips, insight, and opinions you get. None too many pains-in-the-butt here either.

Still glad I bought the car...and glad I found the forum.

Thanks, all. This advice will assist me.

And I've always told people: Snows can cost you a grand, easy- but how much would a new front end cost?...

Conti TS series were designed for mild European winters. Stay away from those.

Conti TS is performance winter.

Hakkapaliitta R (sp), WS 70 are studless ice snow. Different class.

New Brunswick may be no place for performance winter, I do not know.

Krzys

PS I do like my two winters on TS810 (05 legacy and 03 Passat).

The local dealer (Coast Tire) offered a good discount on the latter, so they got my money - they even managed to beat the TireRack pricing on WS70 (after shipping, duty, and taxes).

^ I'm very glad you were able to bargain, using the various online prices as a reference.

Here in the US, this is actually very common-practice, with most of the larger brick-and-mortar local chains offering the same.

The one thing I ask of local buyers is to be sure that the tires they get are indeed "the tires they bought." For those less-experienced, be sure to bring along a photographic reference or bring someone who knows: also, be sure to check the stamped month/year-of-manufacture, to insure that the tires you're getting (if you're not getting tires that either are new this season or were new last season) haven't been just sitting around somewhere already for a long time, and thus more a candidate for dry-rot.

Personally, I don't think that the difference between top-of-the-line Nokian/Bridgestone/Conti/Michelins of the same type (stud/less) would be that great (they never report ANOVA details in those tire tests).

I completely agree.

Forgetting statistics and examining the raw data alone - taking the NAF and Auto Review tests as prime examples - one can see just how close the performance between the leading tires are.

Take away any weighing of the raw data used to determine "winners/losers," and it is clear to see that the tire which "won" a certain test or "lost" another may instead be the worst-possible or best-possible fit for a specific end-user's needs and preferences.

Given this set of concerns, I think that it is not only important that the raw data be critically reviewed by the end-consumer (and that raw data, furthermore, should always be made available by those undertaking such tests), but that it is also important for consumers to realize that buying "the best tire" may not mean much more than being able to have bragging rights at the local pub.

If, driven at 10/10ths, these tires produce measureable differences of less than a couple of meters/feet, are those of us who already leave plenty of margin for error necessarily going to note any difference, driving on public roads, at perhaps only 5/10th of the tire's capability-for-conditions?

Tire sizing, availability, and financial concerns, in the end, all become very valid reasons for choosing one tire over another.

As long as one doesn't choose the worst tire possible :lol:, I think it'll be OK.

I would not expect any studless tire to perform [well enough to my taste] after more than 2-3 winters or 15-25k km, depending on the temperature (anything >+10C = murder) and driving style. It might as well be possible that I simply like buying new toys though...

Let's face it, we all like buying new tires, here.

I agree - for the winter, you can never have too much tread: nor can the tread be "new" enough. The ravages of age on the tire compound, even for tires well-stored in the off-season, is undeniable, even if there's no sign of dry-rot.

In the warm and sunny Siberia 90% people prefer studded tires, Nokian Hakka/Gislaved NordFrost/local brands, in that order. It may be just the expectation that Scandinavians should know about the white stuff

^ I think that's actually very true - tires are marketed for specific geographic/climate markets, and it should well be the case that the heartier winter tires come from the areas which see harsher weather. I keep wondering that if perhaps those Japanese/Korean tires which do so poorly in the heartier European tests may not fare considerably better in their native lands' wintry areas, given specific geographic/climate differences.

Edit: Conti TS series were designed for mild European winters. Stay away from those.

^ To which ...

Conti TS is performance winter.

Hakkapaliitta R (sp), WS 70 are studless ice snow. Different class.

 

New Brunswick may be no place for performance winter, I do not know.

 

Krzys

 

PS I do like my two winters on TS810 (05 legacy and 03 Passat).

^ I think that's what error was trying to say, krzyss - that his personal take is that the "Performance Winters" are not as well-suited for that particular area....

@^ Right, my post was written with a typical Canadian winter in mind (not BC-like though).

BTW, winters in Okinava can be pretty brutal, I heard. Most Japanese manufacturers have AWD models for the domestic market - e.g. the little Toyota Tercel was available in AWD, as well as Nissan Sunny (JDM C-class compact) and many others.

BTW, winters in Okinava can be pretty brutal, I heard. Most Japanese manufacturers have AWD models for the domestic market - e.g. the little Toyota Tercel was available in AWD, as well as Nissan Sunny (JDM C-class compact) and many others.

^ That's why I'm wondering if, for whatever reason, the Japanese and Korean tires may not somehow be better suited to the specific conditions seen in their native lands. Perhaps the "consistency" (for lack of better words) of their snow/ice is somewhat different from that which is seen in the harsher European areas, which then contributes to the low scoring of those tires, when tested in the latter?