GrimmSpeed 08+ WRX/LGT Top Mount Intercooler - Any Interest?

^ BNR turbos... pretty popular around here.

I wasnt talking about bnr in general, just their 68hta. Most people here have their 16g, 18g and 20g

From the Nasioc thread

 

I agree, I don't think anybody is actually questioning whether or not there's a GrimmSpeed 08+ TMIC at the end of this road, but here's the more detailed explanation that you're looking for, I think, as well as the reason that we just can't simply give a date. Please don't misinterpret this as a rant or my being defensive - just trying to inform!

 

For starters, yes, it's been almost a year since the birth of the project. If you've worked in product development like this, you know that this is actually a relatively short development cycle, given that we're currently in production. If you haven't, well, for a 'clean sheet' design that differs greatly from the part that it's replacing and requires extensive R&D, prototyping, testing, etc, that's pretty quick. If we were interested, like most, in making something that simply 'fit', we'd have been done long ago. The fact is, if that's all you want, you'd have bought somebody else's option even before we started. There's a huge gap in this market and it's not because it hasn't been identified, it's because filling it requires a tremendous amount of knowledge, resources, dedication and hard work. The people that seem willing to go to those lengths, technically, are race teams and GrimmSpeed. Here's the catch - it needs to compete, cost wise, with the other intercoolers that are being pumped out of factories overseas.

 

So, there's that. Here's what complicates this project, from a production standpoint. We like to do things ourselves whenever possible, but casting end tanks is something that will likely never happen in-house. Manufacturing heat exchanger cores is also something requires massive, very expensive, single-purpose machinery. That's no problem, we'd prefer to leave those very specialized pieces of the process to the guys that have been doing it for many, many years. We're working with a foundry that supplies parts to some of the largest businesses in the world. Once an end tank design is complete (there are two of them), we work with the foundry and the mold shop to turn it into a part that can be cast repeatably and with very high pressure tightness. From there, the molds need to be manufactured before we can even get sample parts and then go into production. It all sounds very simple, except that it means that for a large portion of production, we're on somebody else's schedule, but with our own quality standards. If we rush their work, and believe me, we've tried, guess what happens to quality?

 

The point that I'm making here, is that the issue lies in the fact that we are inherently at the mercy of the foundry's schedule and they're at the mercy of their mold shop's schedule and they're at the mercy of their machinist's schedule. Believe me, after the time and resources that we've put into this project, everybody at GrimmSpeed wants to see this TMIC on the market more than anybody. This is actually not anything out of the oridinary for us; the only difference is that we've shared the whole process with you guys in order to solicit feedback and make sure that we're designing exactly what you want. The cost of doing so, obviously, is that we're under a microscope and have created such anticipation.

 

I'm a car guy just like the rest of you and I completely understand your frustration with the 'hoping for a summer release' comments and so on. I've been on your side of the fence many times. It's frustrating for us as well. Hell, I lose sleep over it. The reason that we've been so loose with the release date is very simple, though. We don't have one. When I have a better, more firm date, you guys will be the first to know (and will probably hear our giddy excitement off in the distance). Until then, anything else would be a lie. At this point, all I can say with relative certainty is that they will be shipping by the end of the year, so in fairness to everybody that's been patiently waiting for a date or needing to plan their build, why don't we just call it that?

 

If you absolutely need a TMIC solution before then, you may be better served to select a different option for the time being. Process West seems to make the only decent alternative that's currently available, so that would be my recommendation. I just checked with rallysportdirect.com and they're in stock, so give the fine gentlemen there a call and tell them Matt@GS sent you!

 

Matt Beenen

Engineering

 

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2537813&page=21

Yeah, now it's "end of the year". Kind of sucks, but what're you gonna do.

 

Wait - if you are attached to GS - get a PW if not. Although PW stopped making a Legacy GT splitter, so waiting might be the only option. Unless you want to fabricate a splitter yourself.

My quote that produced Matt's response above...

Please correct me if I am incorrect, but I don't think people are questioning whether you will complete this prototype and release a product to the consumers (except Doinworqsonn most recent comment). They just want to know a real time frame so they can plan their build around it (as I am doing). Some fly by the seat of their pants and some rigorously plan out every aspect and budget for their build.

 

We understand your quality standards, appreciate it is all done here in the USA and that you are developing multiple products at the same time for multiple platforms; but 21 pages of "spring release" and then "hope to have it by summer" is what people are concerned about. All in all you have been pretty loose with a real release date.

 

I personally moved on to a larger mod on my trail rig because I really want your product for my stage 3 build (as I feel you guys set the standard) but really have no idea when you would actually release this product. So I would rather get the use out of my trail rig all summer than just have the money sit in my account and wait.

 

With almost a year of talk, CAD renderings, teaser tig pics can we please have a real time frame for release? At this point I would feel that you would at least know whether it's going to be another month or 6. I don't feel like it is too much to ask as some have been patiently waiting and are dedicated to grimmspeed products. I do apologize if I am totally out of line here as I am not trying to start any problems, but this is just my personal opinion. And we all know what we can do with our personal opinions...

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Proper+Opinion+Placement.+How+to+properly+handle+your+opinion_b4f30a_4739705.jpg

 

Thanks for your continued support.

I'm a 3rd party deveper for a flight simulation game my entire team shares the same opinion on giving out release dates. Better to piss off a few impatient jerks than to release a faulty product and piss everyone off.

 

Take your time, GS. Make it right the first time.

Im not familiar with that one. Mine is a Forced Perfmance 68hta with a 7cm compressor

 

 

 

If memory serves, this BNR 68HTA uses a 7.5 cm compressor. I picked this up when they were first released. The 7 cm compressor seems to correlate to higher peak torque than those with 7.5 and 8 cm compressors. My peak torque is a very respectable 368 ft/lbs. The HTA68 can flow alot of air under higher boost pressures.

 

 

 

With E85, mine peaks at 23.5 psi and tapers to around 20 psi at redline. Because of that, a TMIC with improved flow can help optimize performance more than you might see with lower boost targets. But that doesn't mean that you wouldn't see a notable gain running 93 octane and lower boost targets.

 

 

 

When I was running a Perrin TMIC at Stage 2 with a Protune on 91 octane, it was around 20 whp more than comparable cars on the same dyno on the same day using the same tuner. Torco race gas tunes using the factory TMIC were about the same as what I was getting with the Perrin on 91.

 

 

 

So, the moral of the story is pretty simple. An intercooler with better flow is very likely to provide you with a respectable bump in performance. They are not just window dressing. Are they worth the investment? Some would say yes and others would tell you to invest in headers, alcohol injection or any other number of things.

 

 

 

I would expect the GS TMIC to be an improvement over the Perrin design but for me, it is as much about quality as it is output. I literally hate taking the Perrin off with putting it back on being even worse. If it is better for maintenance, I'm all too happy to give them my money. If it opens up other turbo options and it provides better performance, that is all gravy to me.

I jumped on the 68hta bandwagon when Forced Performance had their Christmas sale but I haven't installed it yet because their compressor housing is an STI style one. I bought RacerXs FMIC but ended up not liking pipes all over my engine bay so I'm just waiting for this TMIC. I could get the PW one with the STI hose but without a shroud Im not going to get it.

 

Im going to stick with 93 octane but I am thinking of redoing my fuel setup from ID 850cc sidefeeds to their top feed conversion with 1000cc injectors. I'm pretty sure I will come close to my 300hp goal. I don't drive my car much so E85 is out of the question

If you don't plan on going with E85, the top feeds are probably overkill. Either way, I'm sure you will love it when it is all put together.

 

Sent from my Lumia Icon

Bump for updates...I just attempted a FMIC install but couldn't find a leak! I got frustrated and put my POS top mount back on.

Bump for updates...I just attempted a FMIC install but couldn't find a leak! I got frustrated and put my POS top mount back on.

 

That's a good thing?

I'm new on the scene but very interested in this, any updates Grimmspeed??

Love grimmspeed products and quality so hate to be a party pooper but why the hell invest all this time, effort and tease us for over a year (?) on development process of a part for a car that is at this point 2 generations behind and will soon be all in hands of 2nd/3rd owners that will buy it for cheap and won't be able to or won't feel like investing in expensive aftermarket parts?

Love grimmspeed products and quality so hate to be a party pooper but why the hell invest all this time, effort and tease us for over a year (?) on development process of a part for a car that is at this point 2 generations behind and will soon be all in hands of 2nd/3rd owners that will buy it for cheap and won't be able to or won't feel like investing in expensive aftermarket parts?

 

Legacy GT and Outback XT are a byproduct.

 

 

The first thing that we need to do is establish a set of primary design requirements. Here’s what we came up with. Of course, we have many other requirements as part of every product that we develop, but here are the heavy hitters on this particular project.

1. The GrimmSpeed TMIC must fit 08+ WRX fitments without substantial/permanent modification.
   
2. The GrimmSpeed TMIC must accomodate the use of upgraded ‘STI style’ turbos.
   
3. The GrimmSpeed TMIC must be properly sized to support 550+whp.
   
4. The GrimmSpeed TMIC must be innovative, providing features and capability that aren't already available.
   
5. The GrimmSpeed TMIC must be an affordable solution.
   

I think it's also going to be designed to fit the new wrx 14+

That's a good thing?

 

No, a good thing would have been me finding the leak in the FMIC and not getting frustrated and pulling all back off. I put my TMIC back on and will run with that until GS releases their product...hence the bump for updates.

No, a good thing would have been me finding the leak in the FMIC and not getting frustrated and pulling all back off. I put my TMIC back on and will run with that until GS releases their product...hence the bump for updates.

 

 

I was making fun. You said you couldn't find a leak. Not the leak. lol

I was making fun. You said you couldn't find a leak. Not the leak. lol

 

Ahh...the woes of the English language! Yes, not finding a leak would've been fabulous!

I'm new on the scene but very interested in this, any updates Grimmspeed??

 

Grimmspeed doesn't update this thread. The updates are done on Nasioc - you have to head over there if you want updates.

 

It's still -

"Hopefully by the end of the year - due to manufacturing constraints beyond our control"

Legacy GT and Outback XT are a byproduct.

^This... Which is why we should be glad that they are actually putting forth the cost to develop a splitter for us.

I'm actually kind of glad that Grimmspeed is taking their sweet time with the R&D/manufacturing process. 1) Despite the (growing) pressure, GS can't be rushed -- this ensures that a high quality product that fits all criteria is made; and 2) Getting the GS TMIC will likely be my catalyst for Stg3 upgrades and financial irresponsibility. So, for the time being, I can keep saving and staving off the inevitable.

I guess people would rather chance getting their TMIC order in and hope their order ships while possibly dealing with a month-plus backorder, just like their downpipe release.

 

GS learned from that and I have a feeling they would like to get the process correct, streamlined and leaned out the best they can before release to make lead times to their distributors as short as possible.

 

I'm a consumer just like you guys, but being an engineer for a manufacturing company has given me insight the general public doesn't have. They aren't being lazy and they understand your frustration.

They have to post a post like this every week now it seems.

 

Alright, easy fellas. I'll skip most of the BS and address Ziggy's comment below, since I think he's getting at what some of you are saying.

Quote:

 

Originally Posted by Ziggyrama View Post

I'll start by saying, I like what Grimmspeed stands for as a company. I have purchased products from them and even used their P&P service as I like giving my money to such companies.

 

That being said, what is the actual timeline for this product? Any engineering project has dates and milestones. Even R&D can be estimated and put onto a calendar as a schedule. I can tell you, being an engineer myself, if you give engineers an open ended project, they will never finish as they will continue to improve the design in infinite loop because there is always something that can be made better and improved upon the previous iteration. This is why dates are always set and milestones are tracked. Otherwise, this thing will never ship. So, Grimmspeed, what is the target date?

 

Everything that you've said here is correct. I worked in the defense industry as an engineer for years before jumping ship to chase my real passion, and I agree with your experience 100%.

 

The gap between your experience and what we do here at GrimmSpeed, I suspect, is because you don't work as a part of a young, small, fast-growing business like ours. We do set and track timelines, milestones, checkpoints and so on. We have a product development process that we follow and use gantt charts to plan/track progress.

 

The point that I think people miss here, is that we're a small business and each of us wears many hats. We'd love to spend all of our time and resources finishing a project like this as quickly as possible, but we also need to support our other product lines, ramp up production to meet demand and maintain our level of custom service. I've said it before and I'll happily say it again: what you guys are seeing here isn't abnormal. This is how product development in our environment works. The only thing that sets this TMIC apart is that you're all seeing it in real time. We spent over 2yrs developing the 02-07 TMIC.

 

The truth is, GrimmSpeed isn't a well oiled machine with twelve perfectly meshing cogs, spitting out car parts. Think of it like a living, breathing organism. Priorities are constantly changing; there are new challenges and victories every day. It's a very, very delicate balance of passion, engineering, production, welding, customer service, shipping, receiving, planning, assembly, packaging, testing, purchasing, supply chain management, dealer relations, marketing, distribution, communication and so on. No day here is the same as the last and it's ******* awesome.

 

We started this project and set our targets based on our best estimates of available resources. The good news is that we're much, much busier than expected and as a result, available resources have thinned. Unlike larger businesses, it's just not as easy as simply throwing more man hours at a project.

 

The only other thing that I'd mention here is that we don't see this particular market as 'flooded'. Despite the fact that these engine configurations were available in 2005 (before GrimmSpeed existed), we don't see a single product that's ready to compete with what we'll be offering, which is why we're taking our time to make sure it's exactly what we want. Like many others have said, if you really need a TMIC and can't wait for this to be finished, I'd encourage you to buy something else.

 

As we've said before, we're pushing very, very hard to get this fully released by the end of the year. At this point, much of it is out of our hands, but we're managing what we can as closely as possible. Meat_WRX's estimation as far as what we have invested into this project doesn't even begin to cover the cost of Engineering and Tooling, so believe me when I tell you that we want to be selling these just as badly as you want to be buying them.

 

Happy Wednesday!

 

Matt Beenen

Engineering

Edited August 5, 2014 by Rhitter

I would venture to say, people who are just stumbling onto this thread don't realize that the best updates are being posted on NASIOC.. with the link that was provided a few pages back