A/S Tire Comparison

I've been calling around locally and getting prices for some all-seasons for my 2.5i, and have narrowed it down to 4... but am having trouble digging up info on them (other than what tirerack.com says)

 

I NEED to get off of these Hancook Ventus Sports immediately!!

 

These prices are for the whole deal- 4 tires/mount/balance

 

205/50/17 (a little narrower for snow traction)

 

Pirelli P6 A/S $534

Kuhmo Ecsta ASX $575

Dunlop SP Sport Signature $610

Goodyear Eagle GT $610

 

From what the numbers on tirerack say, it seems like the Dunlip is a good well-rounded tire at a pretty nice price. I was interested in the Eagle GT, but considering its a new design, I havent been able to get any info about its performance in snow.

 

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Bridgestone Potenza 960AS PP

 

or

 

Continental ContiExtremeContact

 

Try to get in a 225 width. There are far more choices.

Bridgestone Potenza 960AS PP

 

worth the $, lots of threads on this, and look at Tirerack's own test. They rate these #1 last time I checked.

thanks for the input guys! i really do want to stick with a 205 though... just for the narrower track in the snow. i'm going to keep doing some research, but will be keeping the potenza in consideration

thanks for the input guys! i really do want to stick with a 205 though... just for the narrower track in the snow. i'm going to keep doing some research, but will be keeping the potenza in consideration

 

Honestly, tire design has more to do with traction in snow moreso than track width.

 

For example, yes, you're right.

 

A 205 or 215 Potenza 960AS PP is going to be slightly better than a 225 Potenza 960AS PP.

 

However, a 225 Potenza 960AS PP is going to be VASTLY superior than a 205 or 215 RE92.

 

Just by switching to a different tire like a 960AS PP or a ContiExtremeContact you're going to get MUCH better traction than a narrower RE92.

 

If you're THAT concerned about traction in snow, you need to forgo an A/S tire and go for a winter tire. That will have vastly superior traction compared to an excellent A/S tire in the snow.

 

Personally, I feel that as long as you keep your speed low and get the best A/S tire out there, you'll be fine.

Honestly, tire design has more to do with traction in snow moreso than track width..

 

Eh? Kinda' sounds like you are saying that "tire design" is more relevant than "physics" when it comes to what makes a good snow tire.

 

I agree that aspects like rubber compounds (and whether or not they remain pliable in cold temps) and tread design (and whether or not there is adequate siping to hold onto enough-but-not-too-much snow for grip on snowy surfaces), but both these aspects mean diddley on a tire which is too wide for the weight car they're on.

 

For example, if you decided to shoehorn a 255 winter tire on your LGT, I don't care if they were designed by NASA--they're gonna' suck in the snow because of the amount of surface area (read as: resistance) they represent on a 3400 lb car. And if this same tire were on a 7000 lb car (like my Expedition), it would perform fine.

 

Just my $.02....

Tim

thank you tim!

 

for example... have you seen the tires that the wrc run in the snow? i think they i've read that they sometimes go as small as 16x5.5 wheels

 

http://www.cycloneinjapan.com/upload/files/1/subaru_impreza_wrc_rally_car_04.jpg

now im not saying that 205 vs 225 is a HUGE difference, but that was my reasoning for going narrower

+1 on ContiExtremeContacts. I've got a set 225/40/17 on my winter/track wheels and they do just fine...plus, the price is right @ tirerack.com...

 

I will say that the sidewalls could be a bit stiffer for the summer but other then that...spot on!

now im not saying that 205 vs 225 is a HUGE difference, but that was my reasoning for going narrower

 

Actually, I'm willing to bet you'd see a pretty noticeable difference when driving on or through snow between a 225 and a 205. The aspect ratio would also have a small impact on the surface area of the footprint since it dictates how much of the 205 is "sidewall" versus "footprint".

 

I'm sure you're be fine with a 215 (stock width), slightly better in snow/ice/rain/slush with a 205--and would probably be ok with a 225 based upon all the folks here who run them

 

Tim

+1 on ContiExtremeContacts. I've got a set 225/40/17 on my winter/track wheels and they do just fine...plus, the price is right @ tirerack.com...

 

I will say that the sidewalls could be a bit stiffer for the summer but other then that...spot on!

I have a similar setup but i have 225/45/R17 as my car comes with 18s. These tired grip just right for me in the snow.

i just barley put on the goodyear eagle gt 225/45/17 on today, and it is currently nuking down snow in SLC so i am excited to see how they do...

Eh? Kinda' sounds like you are saying that "tire design" is more relevant than "physics" when it comes to what makes a good snow tire.

 

I agree that aspects like rubber compounds (and whether or not they remain pliable in cold temps) and tread design (and whether or not there is adequate siping to hold onto enough-but-not-too-much snow for grip on snowy surfaces), but both these aspects mean diddley on a tire which is too wide for the weight car they're on.

 

For example, if you decided to shoehorn a 255 winter tire on your LGT, I don't care if they were designed by NASA--they're gonna' suck in the snow because of the amount of surface area (read as: resistance) they represent on a 3400 lb car. And if this same tire were on a 7000 lb car (like my Expedition), it would perform fine.

 

Just my $.02....

Tim

 

I know what you are saying. In theory, you're right. When you are faced with a budget and for practical purposes, it's a grey area.

 

If you go with the tire width approach you'd probably be going from a 215mm or 225mm down to a 205mm tire. You have decreased the tire width by 5%-10%.

 

Will this 5%-10% reduction in width for the purposes of winter driving on a RE92 tire outweigh the winter driving benefits of switching to a vastly superior tread and compound such as the ContiExtremeContacts? I think if you are using the RE92 as a reference point, you're going to see much more significant gains just by switching to better tires versus switching to the better tires in a marginally narrower spec.

 

I'd rather spend the money on an excellent set of A/S tires and be done with it than worry about getting multiple sets of tires. I think that in most cases what "could have" saved someone from an accident in winter driving is going to be compound and tread related than tire width related as long as width is close to OE spec (ie. 205-225).

 

I agree that aspects like rubber compounds (and whether or not they remain pliable in cold temps) and tread design (and whether or not there is adequate siping to hold onto enough-but-not-too-much snow for grip on snowy surfaces), but both these aspects mean diddley on a tire which is too wide for the weight car they're on.

So what tire size is considered "too wide"? Is a 215mm or a 225mm "too wide" and a 205mm not "too wide"? We're talking about tires that are +- 10mm within OE spec.

If you go with the tire width approach you'd probably be going from a 215mm or 225mm down to a 205mm tire. You have decreased the tire width by 5%-10%..

 

To clarify, this would be correct--assuming you're not also going to a higher profile which (because it's a ratio) would also decrease the amount of surface area of the contact patch in favor of more sidewall.

 

Will this 5%-10% reduction in width for the purposes of winter driving on a RE92 tire outweigh the winter driving benefits of switching to a vastly superior tread and compound such as the ContiExtremeContacts?

 

Outweigh...no, but when you're talking about maintaining traction with a surface, it's almost impossible separate the 3 dynamics involved (width, rubber compound and tread design) and say that one is less important than the others. It's like trying to bake a cake and saying that it'll taste better if you leave out the flour rather than the eggs or the sugar. Leave out any 1 of the ingredients, and it's still gonna' taste like crap

 

From the perspective of "hydroplaning" only (or whatever the technical term is for "loss of contact with road surface due to resistance of snow/slush"), in concept the tire's width would outweigh the other 2 dynamics if the snow/slush resistance is great enough (other contributing factors to the resistance would be the amount of snow/slush or the speed of the vehicle). Why? Because if the tire were unable to make contact with the road surface because of the resistance, the other 2 dynamics wouldn't have a chance to come into play yet.

 

So, to answer your question on whether a "marginal" reduction in tire width would offer a noticeable increase in winter traction over a wider tire with superior tread design and rubber compound? I don't know because it's a very difficult "recipe" to dissect, but what I do know is tire width has more importance than came across in your orig post.

 

I'd rather spend the money on an excellent set of A/S tires and be done with it than worry about getting multiple sets of tires.

 

+ 1 on that! If $$ were no concern, I'd keep buying separate 3 season tires and dedicated winters, but it's DEFINITELY a concern right now!

 

 

I think that in most cases what "could have" saved someone from an accident in winter driving is going to be compound and tread related than tire width related as long as width is close to OE spec (ie. 205-225)..

 

I think that's a difficult assumption to make. I'd go as far as saying in most cases what would've saved someone from an accident in winter driving would be "driving within the limits of their vehicle and its tires--no matter how good or bad they are". Depending on the type of vehicle, some OE tires sizes would be decent in the snow, some wouldn't. Subaru Outback? Yes (for the most part). Infinity G Coupe or Audi A8? No way--both have very wide tires.

 

So what tire size is considered "too wide"? Is a 215mm or a 225mm "too wide" and a 205mm not "too wide"? We're talking about tires that are +- 10mm within OE spec.

 

I think this is very subjective and depends a lot on conditions, the car itself (its weight, etc) and the tires. To your point, if the tire were a good quality winter tire (compound and tread), I think it helps lessen the negative affects if that tire is also wider-than-ideal for the conditions at hand.

 

And at that point, "to each his/her own", YMMV, etc...

 

Good discussion, man!

 

Cheers,

Tim

 

ps: so where in NJ are ya'? I'm right near the PA border off I-78....

To clarify, this would be correct--assuming you're not also going to a higher profile which (because it's a ratio) would also decrease the amount of surface area of the contact patch in favor of more sidewall.

 

 

 

Outweigh...no, but when you're talking about maintaining traction with a surface, it's almost impossible separate the 3 dynamics involved (width, rubber compound and tread design) and say that one is less important than the others. It's like trying to bake a cake and saying that it'll taste better if you leave out the flour rather than the eggs or the sugar. Leave out any 1 of the ingredients, and it's still gonna' taste like crap

 

From the perspective of "hydroplaning" only (or whatever the technical term is for "loss of contact with road surface due to resistance of snow/slush"), in concept the tire's width would outweigh the other 2 dynamics if the snow/slush resistance is great enough (other contributing factors to the resistance would be the amount of snow/slush or the speed of the vehicle). Why? Because if the tire were unable to make contact with the road surface because of the resistance, the other 2 dynamics wouldn't have a chance to come into play yet.

 

So, to answer your question on whether a "marginal" reduction in tire width would offer a noticeable increase in winter traction over a wider tire with superior tread design and rubber compound? I don't know because it's a very difficult "recipe" to dissect, but what I do know is tire width has more importance than came across in your orig post.

 

 

 

+ 1 on that! If $$ were no concern, I'd keep buying separate 3 season tires and dedicated winters, but it's DEFINITELY a concern right now!

 

 

 

 

I think that's a difficult assumption to make. I'd go as far as saying in most cases what would've saved someone from an accident in winter driving would be "driving within the limits of their vehicle and its tires--no matter how good or bad they are". Depending on the type of vehicle, some OE tires sizes would be decent in the snow, some wouldn't. Subaru Outback? Yes (for the most part). Infinity G Coupe or Audi A8? No way--both have very wide tires.

 

 

 

I think this is very subjective and depends a lot on conditions, the car itself (its weight, etc) and the tires. To your point, if the tire were a good quality winter tire (compound and tread), I think it helps lessen the negative affects if that tire is also wider-than-ideal for the conditions at hand.

 

And at that point, "to each his/her own", YMMV, etc...

 

Good discussion, man!

 

Cheers,

Tim

 

ps: so where in NJ are ya'? I'm right near the PA border off I-78....

 

I agree with most of your theoretical points and never thought any of it is wrong.

 

I just think that for all intents and purposes 99.9% of the Legacy owners there should just get a good set of A/S and keep their speed low if they live in our region. I'm from central Jersey but I've passed you guys a lot this past week on the way to Blue Mountain.

 

In my experience, I've never had any trouble with forward traction even on RE92. My only worry is that they're not good enough for lateral traction. I can intentionally kick out the rear way too easily. However, we don't get enough snow to warrant buying another set of wheels and winter tires. I would probably just get the best A/S I can and take it slow.

I like this discussion........can I throw a wrench in this convo and take the spot light for a moment, lol

 

 

...I am ready to change my tires and I found a great set of Kuhmo's.... more specific -- Kuhmo Solus HP4 plus, grand touring A/S

etc etc etc........only issue is.......the only 200's they have is 235/55R17.........

(tirerack.com)

 

Is this safe on a 17x7"(and yes I've been thinking about this for the longest f****** time and am ready to blow my mind).......mind you, other than doing zero access bull**** and other parking lot doodads, I do not plan on putting my life in danger in the snow, and also adding that these will serve as a full A/S replacements for my wretched 215/45ZR17 RE92's......

 

and as replacements, I mean that I have taken a vow since about a month ago not to race anymore and all that junk....so I wont be taking tight turns to test the centripetal force of Subaru's outstanding symmetrical AWD system.....other than playing in the snow lol

 

I will take any verbal....maybe physical, but definitely mental abuse needed to get down to an answer so I can have tires before next snow fall.....so lets talk

I like this discussion........can I throw a wrench in this convo and take the spot light for a moment, lol

 

 

...I am ready to change my tires and I found a great set of Kuhmo's.... more specific -- Kuhmo Solus HP4 plus, grand touring A/S

etc etc etc........only issue is.......the only 200's they have is 235/55R17.........

(tirerack.com)

 

Is this safe on a 17x7"(and yes I've been thinking about this for the longest f****** time and am ready to blow my mind).......mind you, other than doing zero access bull**** and other parking lot doodads, I do not plan on putting my life in danger in the snow, and also adding that these will serve as a full A/S replacements for my wretched 215/45ZR17 RE92's......

 

and as replacements, I mean that I have taken a vow since about a month ago not to race anymore and all that junk....so I wont be taking tight turns to test the centripetal force of Subaru's outstanding symmetrical AWD system.....other than playing in the snow lol

 

I will take any verbal....maybe physical, but definitely mental abuse needed to get down to an answer so I can have tires before next snow fall.....so lets talk

 

Hey Mark-

 

Sadly, since it looks like you've got an LGT, a 235/55-17 no-fitty your car. If you had an Outback, they would most likely fit fine.

 

Out of curiosity, what made you choose the Solus HP4?

 

I'm only asking because the "Touring" and "Grand Touring" tire categories have seen a lot of new additions--almost to the point where there's too many to choose from. I was looking at the new Dunlop Signature (a Touring A/S tire) and SP Sport Signature (a High Performance A/S)...the ratings and prices on both looked very interesting. Others here have been praising the General Altimax and Cooper CS4...both of which are very reasonably priced all-seasons with excellent ratings on the internet as well as from board members here.

 

Tim

Thanks for the info Tim,

 

Well it all started when I was 4, lol, just joking, I've been looking for tires....with reasonable prices for months now, and I've seen the General Altimax and every other tire out there.

 

To be honest I have a really tight budget.....I mean really tight...and I really cannot afford the cs4's, otherwise I would have gone with them instantly because a huge chunk of my family have always rode with cooper and never had problems, but alas to get them in 225/45R17....they cost a chunky 120$ or just under I believe.....and with shipping I cannot afford 530$

 

I have seen the Altimax over and over and it has been seducing me me with it's good looks, and decent price, but I'm not sure If I can do 470$.....

 

So I have been take my brain apart...piece by piece searching for the best tire...that I can afford really....and I really am not a fan of buying a whole set of tires used from ebay, lol,

 

I already got into a fight with my dad about that, hahaha, he says "a tire is a tire damn it", but I say "yes....but when the owner states he's done 30,000 miles with spirited driving wouldn't you think its dangerous to expect those tires to last as long as these RE92's did!"

 

Mind you my RE92's lasted me a healthy 3 years.....36,500 miles...going to keep them until 40,000 miles just for whatever

 

.....But yes....sadly this is my situation, good lookin guy, with a good lookin car.....but sadly no money....

Thanks for the info Tim,

 

Well it all started when I was 4, lol, just joking, I've been looking for tires....with reasonable prices for months now, and I've seen the General Altimax and every other tire out there.

 

To be honest I have a really tight budget.....I mean really tight...and I really cannot afford the cs4's, otherwise I would have gone with them instantly because a huge chunk of my family have always rode with cooper and never had problems, but alas to get them in 225/45R17....they cost a chunky 120$ or just under I believe.....and with shipping I cannot afford 530$

 

I have seen the Altimax over and over and it has been seducing me me with it's good looks, and decent price, but I'm not sure If I can do 470$.....

 

So I have been take my brain apart...piece by piece searching for the best tire...that I can afford really....and I really am not a fan of buying a whole set of tires used from ebay, lol,

 

I already got into a fight with my dad about that, hahaha, he says "a tire is a tire damn it", but I say "yes....but when the owner states he's done 30,000 miles with spirited driving wouldn't you think its dangerous to expect those tires to last as long as these RE92's did!"

 

Mind you my RE92's lasted me a healthy 3 years.....36,500 miles...going to keep them until 40,000 miles just for whatever

 

.....But yes....sadly this is my situation, good lookin guy, with a good lookin car.....but sadly no money....

 

I hear ya', my friend....I'm in a similar situation except mine's because I have a newborn and a 17 month old (and I **think** I used to be good lookin', but can't really remember...lol!)

 

I'm with you about not wanting to chance used tires on ebay, etc. I'm not a trained tire technician and while I could spot a slice or a hole as good as the next guy, if there were something wrong stucturally--I'd prefer to have some accountability rest with whomever sold them to me (which won't be anyone from ebay).

 

Right now I'm biding my time with some fairly worn winter tires for what's looking to be Spring when I can **hopefully** pony-up for some new Max/High Performance all-seasons.

 

In size 215/45-17, I see the Kumhos you're looking at are around $63/each but if you were to save a little more in order to get a tire with some solid reviews (both here and at Tirerack) behind it, you're only about $30 per tire away from being able to afford the General Altimax HP or a couple bucks more for the Dunlop Signatures.

 

Personally, tires are one of those things you're "stuck with" for a while, so getting a cheap set and hating them until they wear out just isn't worth it, IMO.

 

Keep us posted on what you decide, Mark....!

 

Rgds,

Tim

Okay...so...I've picked my brain down to 4 tires.....all having great reviews, and all just under 100$ which I figured I can do.......

 

1 - BFGoodrich: Traction T/A T....touring A/S -- 97$......225/55R17(tirerack.com)

 

2 - General Tire: Altimax RT ....touring A/S -- 92$.......225/60R17(tiresavings.com)

 

3 - General Tire: Altimax HP ....grand touring A/S -- 89$.......215/45R17(tirerack.com)

 

4 - Kuhmo: Solus KR21 ....touring A/S -- 94$.......225/60R17(tiresavings.com)

 

Any opinions on these selections....?

 

I have spent all morning reading and scanning reviews on tirerack and these tires all seem to be great selection for the price.....adding the Altimax HP's by great choice given by Tim(thanks!)

 

Like I said, before, I'll take any abuse to find the right fit, I don't care if you criticize me or the tires, haha...just dont point at my car

Okay...so...I've picked my brain down to 4 tires.....all having great reviews, and all just under 100$ which I figured I can do.......

 

1 - BFGoodrich: Traction T/A T....touring A/S -- 97$......225/55R17(tirerack.com)

 

2 - General Tire: Altimax RT ....touring A/S -- 92$.......225/60R17(tiresavings.com)

 

3 - General Tire: Altimax HP ....grand touring A/S -- 89$.......215/45R17(tirerack.com)

 

4 - Kuhmo: Solus KR21 ....touring A/S -- 94$.......225/60R17(tiresavings.com)

 

Any opinions on these selections....?

 

I have spent all morning reading and scanning reviews on tirerack and these tires all seem to be great selection for the price.....adding the Altimax HP's by great choice given by Tim(thanks!)

 

Like I said, before, I'll take any abuse to find the right fit, I don't care if you criticize me or the tires, haha...just dont point at my car

 

Hey Mark-

 

Not to confuse matters, but you keep quoting tire sizes which won't fit your LGT.

 

If you're going with an all-season, you need to stick to a 215/45-17 (stock size) or a 225/45-17 (which is a popular 'upgrade' size here).

 

Those 225/55's and 225/60's are not gonna' fit a Legacy GT with 17" rims no matter what. Hope that helps!

 

Rgds,

Tim

So even though you guys were pushing the ExtremeContacts (which i did take into consideration), I decided to go with the 205/50 Eagle GT's, and so far couldnt be happier.

 

From what I read, not too many people had experience with these, but the logic in the design seemed legit. They have a really aggressive tread (which actually looks more aggressive in person) and thick sidewall. They are rated at 60,000 miles, so I should be able to get at least a couple years out of them.

 

There hasnt been any snow to try them out yet, but I have gone through a heavy rain, and through some twisties in the dry. I'm glad I didnt go any wider than the 205's because these have a curb protection sidewall which makes it seem like a very wide tire when mounted on our wheels. If I can get out of work at a good time today, I'll take a picture to show what I mean.

 

As soon as the white lays, I'll test them out and keep you updated!

Thank you for that information:redface: At least i know not to make that mistake again....I guess I was steered in the wrong direction by some elders in my home..know not to take info from them again:lol:

 

Thanks a lot Tim.....you've been helping me a lot in the last 24 hours....i think I should pay you for outstanding customer service

 

Anywho, thanks to the information, I have now lined up 6 different tire brands, of all consist of 14 different prices/sizes.........well.....back to square one....but with higher hopes!

 

but really, thanks Tim, I would've made a horrible mistake

So even though you guys were pushing the ExtremeContacts (which i did take into consideration), I decided to go with the 205/50 Eagle GT's, and so far couldnt be happier.

 

From what I read, not too many people had experience with these, but the logic in the design seemed legit. They have a really aggressive tread (which actually looks more aggressive in person) and thick sidewall. They are rated at 60,000 miles, so I should be able to get at least a couple years out of them.

 

There hasnt been any snow to try them out yet, but I have gone through a heavy rain, and through some twisties in the dry. I'm glad I didnt go any wider than the 205's because these have a curb protection sidewall which makes it seem like a very wide tire when mounted on our wheels. If I can get out of work at a good time today, I'll take a picture to show what I mean.

 

As soon as the white lays, I'll test them out and keep you updated!

 

Good deal!

 

Can't wait to see 'em on your ride!

 

Congrats...

Tim

Thank you for that information:redface: At least i know not to make that mistake again....I guess I was steered in the wrong direction by some elders in my home..know not to take info from them again:lol:

 

Thanks a lot Tim.....you've been helping me a lot in the last 24 hours....i think I should pay you for outstanding customer service

 

Anywho, thanks to the information, I have now lined up 6 different tire brands, of all consist of 14 different prices/sizes.........well.....back to square one....but with higher hopes!

 

but really, thanks Tim, I would've made a horrible mistake

\

 

My pleasure, Mark...that's what 'communities' like this one are for

 

Keep us posted on what you decide...and good luck with your decision.

 

Rgds,

Tim