Need Help Planning Future Upgrades

Hi all,

First, there are a lot of choices of which forum to put this in so if it's in the wrong place, please forgive me.

I purchased my '09 Spec. B last weekend and I'm already lusting for more power. I've been reading a lot on here every day and have some basic ideas for what I'd like to do but here's a little info on my car first.

I'm currently running Cobb AP stage 2. Cobb DP, Cobb Exhaust. I'm pretty sure the exhaust is turbo back but haven't looked underneath as of yet. I was lucky enough for this stuff to come already installed on the car.

The stuff isn't enough though!

As far as what I'd like, my criteria so far are:

1. I don't mind being patient and only getting parts when I have the dry powder on hand. In fact, I'm a bit tapped with the purchase of the car.

2. I would rather use a TMIC and not mess with a FMIC.

3. I am entertaining the idea of running E85. I know I'd need bigger injectors for that but am wondering about switching back to 93 if E85 becomes to expensive or unavailable.

4. I enjoy spirited driving and fast acceleration immensely but the car is my DD and will never be tracked. So mid RPM boost is probably more preferable to me than high RPM. Open to suggestions and further discussion though. I love to power through corners and love me some fast 0-60 and 60-100.

5. I would plan to have it professionally tuned and saved on my AP as I'm new to that.

6. It needs to be reliable.

All in all, I want as much HP and torque as I can get within the realm of reason and within the mentioned criteria. Money is important but I'm not planning on buying it all at the same time and I'd try to do some of the work myself as I'm able. I do realize pretty much any addition to what I already have will cause me to have to get a tune so I'll probably hoard the parts until I'm ready to have that done.

Any help and discussion that get's me along my way to more HP and a better understanding is greatly appreciated!

There is a saying, "stay stock, stay happy". Of course stage 2 is pretty reliable. I've already ordered parts for stage 3, and understand the risk that it brings. I am using my car as a DD, and am hoping that if I monitor for knock, then it will be reliable.

Just some word of advice. Once you go past stage 2, it gets expensive fast. Right now I've broken my upgrade plans into 2 phases, supporting parts, then the power parts. Just hope the engine doesn't blow...

Considering your current mods: BnR 16g + tune + TMIC

...if that is not enough add injectors, e85 and a clutch later

Also try SEARCHING. There are countless threads and stickies under the turbo subforum.

There is a saying, "stay stock, stay happy". Of course stage 2 is pretty reliable. I've already ordered parts for stage 3, and understand the risk that it brings. I am using my car as a DD, and am hoping that if I monitor for knock, then it will be reliable.

 

Just some word of advice. Once you go past stage 2, it gets expensive fast. Right now I've broken my upgrade plans into 2 phases, supporting parts, then the power parts. Just hope the engine doesn't blow...

That sounds like good advice. The supporting parts, especially ones that add to reliability

, are probably something I should look into buying first. I should study up some more on that as I am a little overwhelmed with what is needed at what hp level and what is pretty much unnecessary.

If your getting a stage 3 tune, can't you just give up a little hp in return for greater reliability? I mean, just because you CAN get that little bit extra doesn't mean you have to lean it out that far right?

Considering your current mods: BnR 16g + tune + TMIC

 

...if that is not enough add injectors, e85 and a clutch later

 

Also try SEARCHING. There are countless threads and stickies under the turbo subforum.

I've perused quite a few threads over the past week, but admittedly not enough. I know what a BnR 16g is anyway... I guess I'm just trying to pick your brains to get off on the right track. Right now I've got a basic understanding and some criteria and need some educated opinions to send me in the right direction. I don't need to be spoon-fed, just show me where the silverware drawer is. LOL

I've done a lot of searching on E85 today but I can't seem to find what I'm looking for in the way of information. Basically, if I were to get injectors large enough to run E85 are there any large negatives to changing the map and ruining 93 on the same setup?

Maybe I should start by searching on what the largest stock location TMIC can support as far as a turbo that fits my driving style goes?

Since your driving style is low end and midrange you want response (TMIC), and a smaller turbo that holds well up top. You already know that. BnR16g = dont need fueling. IF after you drive that for a while and do a lot more research, dial in your suspension, etc, consider e85 and injectors. It only costs you a retune to do 93 with injectors. No setup you are likely to consider will be large enough to warrant injector sizing such that you will have any large negatives. vf52 is also an option for TMIC car.

16g can put down numbers not dissimilar to mine on e85/840-850 injectors. Thats plenty of power. An e85 tune will make you nervous to hand the keys to anyone.

Basically, if I were to get injectors large enough to run E85 are there any large negatives to changing the map and ruining 93 on the same setup?

 

Maybe I should start by searching on what the largest stock location TMIC can support as far as a turbo that fits my driving style goes?

You cannot run both fuels on one map. At least with the AP you can switch maps on the fly, but you need two tunes.

The stock TMIC is not horribly restrictive on a modest turbo like a 16G but it will come apart at the sort of boost pressures you need to run to take advantage of E85 fuel.

You could do a simple build like the 16G, downpipe and tune to start with. If that isn't enough add the supporting mods for E85 as LAGT mentioned. Injectors, pump, TMIC, clutch, new tune.

If you are sure you will end up on E85 then look at the 68HTA turbo which is better suited for running such high boost.

Since your driving style is low end and midrange you want response (TMIC), and a smaller turbo that holds well up top. You already know that. BnR16g = dont need fueling. IF after you drive that for a while and do a lot more research, dial in your suspension, etc, consider e85 and injectors. It only costs you a retune to do 93 with injectors. No setup you are likely to consider will be large enough to warrant injector sizing such that you will have any large negatives. vf52 is also an option for TMIC car.

 

16g can put down numbers not dissimilar to mine on e85/840-850 injectors. Thats plenty of power. An e85 tune will make you nervous to hand the keys to anyone.

I especially like the last line in your post. That sounds like the perfect amount of power for me. LOL. Maybe I should add: "the upgrades should make me want to flash a 'granny tune' before I hand anyone else the keys" to my criteria.

Thanks, that's very helpful! Since injectors aren't terribly expensive, and they're fairly easy to change that order of doing things seems pretty logical.

I am a few hours away from any well known tuners though so I may want to plan to buy the bigger injectors and bring them with me. I could have setups with both sets of injectors tuned. The extra expense would be well worth it to save me a day of traveling.

You cannot run both fuels on one map. At least with the AP you can switch maps on the fly, but you need two tunes.

 

The stock TMIC is not horribly restrictive on a modest turbo like a 16G but it will come apart at the sort of boost pressures you need to run to take advantage of E85 fuel.

 

You could do a simple build like the 16G, downpipe and tune to start with. If that isn't enough add the supporting mods for E85 as LAGT mentioned. Injectors, pump, TMIC, clutch, new tune.

If you are sure you will end up on E85 then look at the 68HTA turbo which is better suited for running such high boost.

Thanks! I see you guys have now suggested 3 turbos to research more closely. These 3 were on my list so I must be on the right track. Also, I believe BnR offers legacy fitment for all 3 so that's good too.

My last question for now: Does more boost necessarily equal lesser reliability?

I'm off to research turbo/TMIC options now....

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You need to do way way way more research before you order anything OR you need to talk to the shop/tuner. Its obvious that you don't know what you want and may choose poorly for yourself. Find a tuner you trust to help guide you or take your time. Those are your two options. Third option is rush into it, be unhappy and spend a lot more than you need to. My 2c.

Anyhow, if you don't have a rear swaybar/mounts, you really need that before stage3 for pointability. Stage3 e85 = all you are going to do is see sky as the oem suspension is overloaded and you hit the throttle. Time for springs/struts or coilovers.

RE: swtich injectors - wtf are you talking about? Why would you switch injectors back and forth? Either you go with a different set and tune for it or you dont. You change TUNES not injectors.

Anyhow, I paid extra for an e85 "valet" tune for dropping the car at the body shop/valet.

You need to do way way way more research before you order anything OR you need to talk to the shop/tuner. Its obvious that you don't know what you want and may choose poorly for yourself. Find a tuner you trust to help guide you or take your time. Those are your two options. Third option is rush into it, be unhappy and spend a lot more than you need to. My 2c.

 

Anyhow, if you don't have a rear swaybar/mounts, you really need that before stage3 for pointability. Stage3 e85 = all you are going to do is see sky as the oem suspension is overloaded and you hit the throttle. Time for springs/struts or coilovers.

 

RE: swtich injectors - wtf are you talking about? Why would you switch injectors back and forth? Either you go with a different set and tune for it or you dont. You change TUNES not injectors.

 

Anyhow, I paid extra for an e85 "valet" tune for dropping the car at the body shop/valet.

Whoah! No, I'm not planning on buying anything until I do A LOT more research. I thought I was pretty clear that I'm in no hurry. I know I'm not well versed in this stuff yet.

As for suspension, this car is tight. I forgot to mention that the previous owner installed a rear sway bar. With the way this car feels, I wouldn't be surprised if it has aftermarket springs as well, you could feel a pea if you run it over. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to talk with the last owner as I bought it through a dealer so I'm not positive what springs are in it.

I think you misunderstood my injector comments. What I meant was it may be more cost effective to bring two sets TO THE TUNER and have tunes made for both sets to save for later use, not that I'd just switch injectors back and forth willy-nilly. I live over 3 hours from a tuner (that I know of). Injectors seem relatively cheap compared to my time, gas money, and tuning costs is all. It may still be a stupid idea if there aren't real negatives to running bigger injectors with a 93 tune. The possible negatives, I have yet to learn.

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it sounded like you thought you needed to swap injectors back and forth - I figured it was a good time to contact a tuner

Since you dont have the cost of a looming suspension setup in your future and already have an accessport (allowing very convieniant swapping of tunes) combined with the roundtrip of a day to go see a tuner, I would definately bring injectors. I suggest that you order a drop in fuel pump from InfamousPerformance as oem pump will not keep up with 840/850 injectors on e85.

Your stock clutch is not going to like e85 so tune for e85 and go back to pump and save up for a clutch job, don't need to drive 3 hours to see a tuner to do it. I guess what I am saying is, yes, maximize your tuner visit since its a trip OR consider an e-tune from Infamous1 for quite a bit less.

...and in all seriousness... ONCE YOU GO E85 YOU WONT BE ABLE TO GO BACK TO PUMP.

Haha, IC.

Yeah, I'm pretty clutch-friendly as I don't launch or let it slip and RPM match as much as possible but I realize I'll need a better one. I make a game for myself of shifting as perfectly as possible when I'm driving. I LOVE driving manual transmissions, even my 59 Willys 3 speed with only two synchro gears LOL.

The car has about 52k on what I would guess is the original clutch but I have no way of verifying that. So I'll probably need a new one soon anyway. That should be on my list to research. I realize that "driveability" and durability aren't necessarily one in the same with clutches so finding the best combination of both is important to me.

Thanks again for your help. The picture of what I need and want is becoming clearer.

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Increases of power and boost come with potential loss of reliability but I would say, gauging on your driving style, your block and tranny are good for around 350whp with basic mods. Realistically, changing your oil and doing your regular maintenance religuously as well as checking your oil every time you fill up or drive spirited will help.

RE: clutch - your driving style matters little when your rpm gauge slams into the redline under boost in 4th or 5th gear because it cannot hold the increase of torque on a work oem clutch. Not something to worry about too much. 3rd should hold e85 for tuning and then just run on pump gas/pump tune.

"all you will see is sky"

reminds me of a driving a boat with trims up

Oh.....you guy's are talking about suspension... and here I thought the acceleration was slamming your head back so hard you were looking out the sunroof.

On boats and trim adjustments.....boat wheelies are fun!

4. I enjoy spirited driving and fast acceleration immensely but the car is my DD and will never be tracked. So mid RPM boost is probably more preferable to me than high RPM. Open to suggestions and further discussion though. I love to power through corners and love me some fast 0-60 and 60-100

A bigger turbo and a higher RPM will make the stuff in bold more fun, you just have to get into the habit of keeping the revs up to get the most out of the turbo. High RPM is your friend!

Midrange torque is nice if you want to accelerate without shifting, but if you're willing to shift first, you can get a lot more acceleration from a turbo that maintains power all the way to the rev limit. Then you get the combined advantages of more crank torque (due to the bigger turbo) and better gear ratio (due to the lower gear / higher RPM).

While im still stock for now, what ive read is Fast, Cheap, Reliable.

You can only have 2.

While im still stock for now, what ive read is Fast, Cheap, Reliable.

 

You can only have 2.

Worse yet, those are all relative terms.

Well, I talked with the tuner I will probably use yesterday. He was happy to chat for quite a long time and made some recommendations. He seemed to enjoy the fact that I wasn't looking for unrealistic numbers. I guess they must field some dandy calls every day. LOL.

Anyway, with my wants and his recommendations we got together on a starting parts list.

TMIC; probably Process West

1000cc injectors (he wanted the extra headroom and said it was no problem using them at lower fuel levels)

Fuel pump (I forgot to ask him which one he liked so you guys can feel free to give me some recommendations. Obviously it needs to handle 1000cc and E85)

Boost Control Solenoid (didn't discuss brands)

EWG (I wasn't planning on this but he thought it would be a good idea)

Turbo (He's making me lean more towards an 18g)

I feel pretty confident with starting to purchase some stuff. Specifically the TMIC, injectors and a fuel pump. The turbo is still a sticking point though and I've got to do more research on EWG's. As always, your thoughts are appreciated on this stuff.

850cc should be plenty for injectors, FP=dw65 since it is rated and warrantied for e85, bcs=GS because why go with a offbrand to save $10, EWG = why? no need, tmic = id go PW if you want e85. Hell, if you want e85 18g Id go FMIC personally. All that extra timing is yummy.

If I were you Id go: TMIC, bnr16g, BCS, tune and see how you like it. Drive it for a while then add DW65, 850cc injectors and see how you like it.

850cc should be plenty for injectors, FP=dw65 since it is rated and warrantied for e85, bcs=GS because why go with a offbrand to save $10, EWG = why? no need, tmic = id go PW if you want e85. Hell, if you want e85 18g Id go FMIC personally. All that extra timing is yummy.

 

If I were you Id go: TMIC, bnr16g, BCS, tune and see how you like it. Drive it for a while then add DW65, 850cc injectors and see how you like it.

Hey, you're the one that told me to talk to the tuner! From what he said and what I've been reading, there are no disadvantages to going with 1000cc instead of 850cc and being the same price; why not? I do want to keep the tuner happy too. So, If he wants and it doesn't cost me or is cheap, he gets. LOL

Yeah, the EWG.... I don't really think I need it either. He seemed to like them. I mean, I understand they help with boost creep and maybe can make a tuners life a little easier but it's pretty darn expensive for not all that much gain IMHO. I don't think I'd want to make a crapload of noise and exhaust it to atmo either which would cost me even more money on the setup since I'd need to plumb it into the exhaust.

Sorry, I can't bring myself to do the FMIC.

Remember also that I want to keep my trips to the tuner down so I'd just put in the the E85 plumbing and have tunes/maps done for both 93 and E85 running the same setup.

Your replies are very helpful, thanks. I'll put the GS as the BCS on my list.

Looking at the data sheets, the DW65 looks like it should still be cool for 1000cc right? Especially since I shouldn't be using anything near it's full potential.

As I understand it, since I'm changing the IC anyway, I'm not really limited to legacy fitment turbos either so my research on that is ongoing.

I think then that these things are pretty close to definite:

PW TMIC

DW 1000cc

DW 65

GS BCS

Other stuff is still up to some further research, suggestions and talks with the tuner.