2008 and 2009 owners: beware of bad internals

I can't find my last thread I had on here, complaining of a blown engine that happened on memorial day on my drive home... went from full oil to 1/2 a quart, filled it back up and it blew the engine.

Well after all these months, having Subaru of America first deny my claim, then later admit fault but only cover half cost, full rental and gas. (and yes, to the know-it-all who poopoo'd me: they paid for the oil I put in the car during the event) the car is back and better than ever. However, because warrantee did finally pick up half, I had to have it serviced at their Subaru dealership (Welsh Subaru of Limerick) by their techs.

It took 2 months, and about $6000 up front by me, of which I recovered $2000 of it back.

Here's what happened in a nutshell, and what you have to be wary of.

2008 and 2009 models of the Subaru Legacy 2.5 engines had the piston heads, connector rods and ringlands made by a different subcontractor for this year. These heads are substandard compared to the 2005,6 and 7 year models. What happens is (to make it easy to understand) the pouring of the molds for these happens too fast, and bubbles can form under the surface.

Where the failure occurs is at higher temperatures, higher advanced timings that can occur from self tuning or using an accessport, or even something AS SIMPLE AS CHANGING THE AIR FILTER TO ALLOW MORE AIR FLOW can change the timing. If the engine runs too hot, those bubbles can cause minute failures, where the bubbles collapse. This skews the precision shape of the head, and in turn, the ringland can possibly be misshapen allowing oil blow-by.

This can be a vicious cycle until catastrophic failure. Which is what happened to my car.

Because SOA covered my warrantee, they made me sign a release holding them unaccountable should the same failure occur. It was then I took my car directly to Agile Auto and had it tuned. What I discovered was appauing, that after the deaer installed the new motor, the timing was set at 0.44, when the acceptable threshold was 0.11 to 0.13. My engine was ready to blow again. The knock table was equally skewed. Thank god I got there in one piece.

If you drive like a grandma or never push your car to it's quoted potential, you'll most likely never experience a problem with an 08 or 09 2.5 engine. However, check your oil every other oil change. The dealership told me they were seeing this same probem more and more, and hearing about it.

I wouldn't be surprised if a class-action suit comes down the hill at some point.

On a side note: It's amazing that each year the NJ icy-performance legacy team used the spec-b gt except for years 08 and 09. I wonder with the redesign in 10 they'll make the jump. Almost as if they knew.

In short: 08 and 09 motors have internals that are inherrantly flawed: the 05,6 and 7 models and the 3.0 and 3.6 models are exempt. This is SOA information given to me by the dealership, researched online and discovered by me after investigating this debacle of a powertrain warrantee.

So next time you swap in that K&N drop-in filter, you are putting your 08,09 at risk of advancing the timing to a point where you can detonate your motor over time due to heat failure of the motor internals: specifically the heads.

Oh before I forget: here's what was replaced:

Water Pump

Small Block

Cylendar Head on #1 side (passenger side, US)

Here's my cost breakdown:

$1200 for car rentals during 2 months

$650 for 2 months car payments while it was in the garrage

$8000 for the labor and parts to replace

$300 in taxes

Subaru of America paid for:

$1200 in car rentas

$4000 in labor and parts

For that same cost, if you blow your engine, expect to be out about $4,000 - 5,000. I would recommend if you don't damage your valves or cylendar head, buy a cosworth shortblock for a few beans more, hand eat the extra cost. You'll be getting a better shortblock with known GOOD internals and it will both outlast and outperform the stock.

The reason why you can find it is because you deleted it because you did not want prying eyes to find out what really happened to it and the fact you continued to drive it while the engine was damaged(many of us commented on that btw) and you mentioned the car had mods. It would look better for you that way while you took it in for warranty work.

However, some of us aren't fooled;)

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113809

On a side note: It's amazing that each year the NJ icy-performance legacy team used the spec-b gt except for years 08 and 09. I wonder with the redesign in 10 they'll make the jump.

http://www.phoenixperformanceinc.com/images/news-images/_T0Z0179.jpg

:confused:

The reason why you can find it is because you deleted it because you did not want prying eyes to find out what really happened to it and the fact you continued to drive it while the engine was damaged(many of us commented on that btw) and you mentioned the car had mods. It would look better for you that way while you took it in for warranty work.

 

However, some of us aren't fooled;)

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113809

Whatever I did with my thread is irrelevant. There is an inherrant and flawed piston, rod and ringland in the 2.5 motors, regardless of model in the 08, 09.

I could put race ready equipment on my car and it wouldn't change the fact that they laid an egg with the 2.5 motor. IF YOU DRIVE LIKE GRANDMA or don't push the car at all, or only a little bit... then you won't have an issue, but just like all the dealerships I talked to about this (Hartford, CT; Manchester, CT; Branford, CT; Limerick, PA) all said the same thing; keep a very close eye on the oil for signs of blow-by, because it leads to this failure. SOA knows about it. Thats why as soon as I started to call them on their refusal to warrantee, they immediately wanted to re-discuss it.

Don't believe me? Keep drinking that Kool-Aid.

As far as the 111 car, I had read that they were using a 2007 Spec B. If that's inaccurate then I'll admit it, I only read a few articles and they both taked about using the 2006, and 2007 spec B, but no mention of 08 or 09. Since there is no spec B in 2010 then I don't know their plans.

(edit: ok I just checked the correct site and they were using the spec B 2008... but I couldn't find what they were using for their short-bock)

So keep picking on me, I don't care what I deleted before or whatever. I wasn't running on an AccessPort, I had messed with one at 10,000 miles then removed it. But the problem that really ACCELERATED any problems was the cobb airbox.

Idealistically if I drove it hard as stock, I'd see this probem at 60,000 miles or so, but by driving hard, pulling and putting an airbox on it along with a TBE and NOT tuning it, the timing advanced to a point where the engine just ran hot. all the time.

so once again, since people want to point fingers at me and say "nay-nay told-ya-so" I'm going to just say to the 08-09 owners, check your oil, as soon as you smell oil or a hot engine or see smoke on idle, at a red light, etc... bring it in and have them do a blow-by test, and have them put it in the computer.

wow. at least they covered half of yours. They did no such thing for mine. 08 STI, 14,400 miles and ringland failure like soooo very many other 08's. but since I had upgraded the turbo 2 days prior, they wouldn't even look at the car (and hubby works there in service). I built the block but since I really don't need a fully built block, I'm taking my old block and installing 05 STI OEM pistons/ringlandings as they don't have this issue.

You would be surprised how many 08+ 2.5L motors are going. We have 7 (probably more) 08 STI's with blown motors due to ringland failure out of the dozen up here! some stock even with fewer than 3000 miles! WTF? Yes, I tracked my car, however our 07 STI was at the exact same events and one more year worth than my NEW 08. It still runs strong without any issues *knock on wood* SOA knows they have weak motors, take a look at the failure rates of the new 09 WRX too. there's quite a few and again, we've already seen about 3 of them come through the service department here out of the 20 or so they've sold. At least there aren't quite as many of them as the 08's, but still.

I babied my motor every day except at track events. All this did was bite me in the ass since it took longer for the ringlanding to fail. Had the car blown up at 6800 miles like the average 08 STI, they would have covered it. I only prolonged the inevitable. At this point, even the service techs will tell customers "it's not IF the motor will blow, but WHEN." Now, we don't see near as many LGT motors coming in blown, but it does happen, just not in the numbers like the STI's. Also, usually due to a failed ringlanding, just like the original Stop Sale SOA issued last summer (4 days after I bought mine).

Whatever I did with my thread is irrelevant. There is an inherrant and flawed piston, rod and ringland in the 2.5 motors, regardless of model in the 08, 09.

Of course it does because you talked about all the mods you had and that you took them off. You also talked about the turbo failing and you still continued to drive it which led to the motor going. That is why some commented on the fact you induced further issues. Why else was it deleted.

so once again, since people want to point fingers at me and say "nay-nay told-ya-so" I'm going to just say to the 08-09 owners, check your oil, as soon as you smell oil or a hot engine or see smoke on idle, at a red light, etc... bring it in and have them do a blow-by test, and have them put it in the computer.

There was no stop sale for ringlands nor bearings. It technically was for ECM reprogramming which could cause that.

That's not consistent with what I read/heard. There was a problem with contaminated bearings. ECU calibration does not contminate bearings. Sure, bad tune causing severe knocking can kill bearings, but it needs to be serious. The official info from Subaru doesn't mention any need to reflash ECU.

Turbo Engine Stop Sale checking Procedure

On April 7, 2008 we informed you of a stop sale order on 2008 Impreza, STi and Legacy vehicles and 2009 Forester vehicles equipped with 2.5L Turbo Engines and produced with the beginning chassis number/production dates and later as shown below:

 

Model Body Type Chassis Number Production Date

Forester Wagon 701045 or later 2008/01/08 or later

Legacy 2.5GT-LTD 222825 or later 2008/02/04 or later

2.5GT-B 222958 or later

OBK 2.5XT-LTD 353835 or later 2008/02/01 or later

Impreza Sedan 523363 or later 2008/01/08 or later

Wagon 825183 or later

 

We took this action as a “Customer First” preventive action as we had confirmed, in other markets, that there was a small possibility of an “Engine Knocking Noise” caused by a contamination in the area of the connecting rod big end journal at very low mileage/time in service.

 

The action was successful in preventing the potential of failures for our customers.

 

Subaru has defined a screening process that you must perform to all of the affected vehicles in your inventory before delivery to a customer or putting in demonstrator service.

 

The screening process consists of several steps to inspect the condition of the engine oil to determine if the engine is not affected by the contamination, is already damaged, or has a potential for damage.

 

Both a flow chart and detailed instruction sheet of the process are included in this document. Each step must be followed exactly, no short cuts.

 

As soon as the engine is determined to be in proper working condition, it can be sold or put into demo service.

 

To perform the screening, you will need the following materials for each vehicle:

• New magnetic Oil Pan Drain Plug (1) (32103KA000 - only this P/N is acceptable)

• New Oil Drain Plug Gasket (1) (11126AA000)

• New Oil Filter (1) (15208AA100)

• Engine Oil 5w30

• Filter paper (such as a standard automotive funnel type paint filter)

• Clear plastic “wash bottle” 16oz (500ml), with angled flexible snorkel:

 

Please order a plastic wash bottle, 16 ounce (500ml / 500cc), translucent color for observing the color of the oil. The cap and pick-up tube colors are not important for this test. We suggest using the following suppliers and supply houses to locate the plastic wash bottle or equivalent:

• W.W. Grainger Supply, Inc. - Grainger Industrial Supply

• Fisher Scientic, Inc. - Fisher Scientific - Welcome

• Most Medical Supply Locations

• Most Beauty Supply Locations

 

Note: It is important that the opening at the tip of the flexible snorkel be at least 3mm inside diameter in order to properly allow any contamination that may be present in the bottom of the oil pan to pass through into the bottle. It may be necessary to trim the flexible snorkel to obtain the 3mm opening. See picture in flowchart on page 4.

 

Detailed Instructions

You will need to refer to the flow chart provided to follow this written procedure and refer to the photos and graphics for examples.

 

Always follow all environmental and hazardous waste handling precautions to prevent any contamination or safety issues.

 

Engine Screening Procedure One

 

1) Drain the engine oil through the drain plug.

 

2) Using the wash bottle, insert the tip of the snorkel through the drain hole, ensuring that the tip is between the bottom of the pick-up screen and the oil pan. Note: The wash bottle can be re-used, but it must be thoroughly cleaned with aqueous parts cleaner and dried. All residual oil, particles and cleaner must be removed to ensure that no false judgments are made.

 

3) Siphon the remaining oil and residue from the oil pan as shown in the drawing (approximately 100cc).

 

4) Observe the color and clarity of the oil in the wash bottle, and compare it to the examples in the photo found on the flowchart on page 4.

NOTE: If the wash bottle is not clear, pour the oil and residue into a clear glass container to make a good judgment.

 

5) If the oil is clear, the engine is okay.

A) Replace the oil filter, install a new magnetic Oil Plug and new Oil Plug Gasket, and refill with fresh engine oil.

 

Engine Screening Procedure Two

 

6) If the oil clarity or color matches the “Needs Check” samples, strain the oil through the filter paper and capture the material residue.

A)If there are copper particles larger that 1 mm in the material residue, the engine is damaged. Immediately submit an E-QMR and wait for further instructions.

NOTE: It may be necessary to clean the particles to determine if they are copper. Copper is reddish in color. There may be very small particles of other materials that are typical of a new engine, such as silicon, aluminum and ferrous (steel or magnetic) content, that do not indicate any failure.

B)If there are no copper particles, or they are smaller than 1 mm, proceed to step 7.

 

7) Install a new magnetic Oil Drain Plug, reusing the original gasket and engine oil filter, and refill the engine with fresh oil.

 

8)Start the engine and let it idle for five (5) minutes to flush any residue from the oil passages.

A)Stop the engine, drain the oil, remove and replace the oil filter, clean and reinstall the magnetic drain pug, using the new gasket.

B)Refill with fresh oil.

 

9)Re-start the engine and let it idle for 5 minutes.

Note: Be sure to allow the Air Pump operation to complete its cycle. It will be difficult to distinguish any engine noise while the pump is operating.

A)Quickly rev and release the engine to 6,000 rpm at least 10 (ten) times. Caution: Do not exceed 6000 rpm or hold above the red line.

Note: Be sure to follow the “Reving Procedure” found on the flow chart located on page 4.

B)Let the engine idle for a few seconds; then increase and decrease the rpm slowly to 2500 rpm, while listening for abnormal lower end engine noise.

 

10) If lower end engine noise is evident, immediately stop the engine and submit an E-QMR and wait for further instructions.

 

11) If no noise, the engine is okay, and the vehicle can be released for retail sale.

That's not consistent with what I read/heard. There was a problem with contaminated bearings. ECU calibration does not contminate bearings. Sure, bad tune causing severe knocking can kill bearings, but it needs to be serious. The official info from Subaru doesn't mention any need to reflash ECU.

Oops, you were talking about the first Stop Sale on all 2.5 turbo engines for 08 and the 09 Forester. Yes there was one for potential bearing noise.

There was another one in August 08 for just for the 08 STI for the ECM which is what I thought she was talking about.

Look... I don't want finger pointing here. I'm trying to just let people know what happened. Sure I had mods. I'm not denying that. Yes, at 9,800 I put on an AccessPort and tried it, it didn't do much for me, so I took it off (reflashed stock maps, divorced) and never put it back on.

According to the dealerships I spoke with, Branford, Hartford and Manchester, CT... as well as Vernon (but didn't get that much info) and Limerick, PA... there is a critical and basic flaw with the internals... namely everyone said the heads, ringands and rods are known to fail in the 08, and 09 2.5 engines. All models, excluding the 3.0 and 3.6 models of those years. Turbo or not.

The ONLY reason I did not stop, call a tow truck and have the car towed was that it was rush hour at night on the NJ turnpike south, on MEMORIAL day. It's not like Bob at the garrage down the street was avaialable.

I had work the next day

I had my dog in the car

I was hungry

I wanted to get home

I'm not calling anyone out except the fact that I was doubted to get my oil paid for that I put in during this fiasco. And that was reimbursed,.

Oops, you were talking about the first Stop Sale on all 2.5 turbo engines for 08 and the 09 Forester. Yes there was one for potential bearing noise.

 

There was another one in August 08 for just for the 08 STI for the ECM which is what I thought she was talking about.

improperly machined/cleaned crank was the issue. I know....mine is the affected range. Those engines found to have contaminants were to be replaced. Those without got an oil flush and magnetic drain plug.

so far so good on my car with nearly 10k miles but I'm prepared to do a build on it if/when needed.

So keep picking on me, I don't care what I deleted before or whatever. I wasn't running on an AccessPort, I had messed with one at 10,000 miles then removed it. But the problem that really ACCELERATED any problems was the cobb airbox.

So you put an aftermarket intake on a car that is KNOWN for having issues with aftermarket intakes, then your engine blew? Is that correct? Did I get that right?

Look... I don't want finger pointing here. I'm trying to just let people know what happened. Sure I had mods. I'm not denying that. Yes, at 9,800 I put on an AccessPort and tried it, it didn't do much for me, so I took it off (reflashed stock maps, divorced) and never put it back on.

Yeah. I think I got it right.

I'm not calling anyone out except the fact that I was doubted to get my oil paid for that I put in during this fiasco. And that was reimbursed,.

So you put an aftermarket intake on a car that is KNOWN for having issues with aftermarket intakes, then your engine blew? Is that correct? Did I get that right?

 

 

 

 

Yeah. I think I got it right.

 

 

 

 

 

As I remember, that just about sums it up. For some strange reason he deleted the original thread about it though, wonder why

No, you don't understand why everyone here doesn't care about you.

If your car would have been completely stock at the time of failure, we would feel differently.

You have to pay to play, and that is what you don't understand.