Wow.. this guy is a real prize reviewer..

Theres people who are clueless... but this guy takes the cake

 

http://www.cobizmag.com/wheels.asp?wheel_ID=292

 

2007 Subaru Legacy Sedan 2.5 GT spec.B

 

 

Great car, wrong price

By Jeff Rundles http://www.cobizmag.com/images/wheels/2out4tires.jpg

TWO WHEELS (OUT OF FOUR)

http://www.cobizmag.com/images/wheels/07SubaruLegacy2.5GTspecBsed.jpg

For the same money, would you buy this? Or a Volvo? I am, for the most part, a Subaru man. In my automotive world, safety plays an enormous role, especially since I have teenage drivers. I truly believe that if everyone drove a Subaru, there would be fewer accidents, there would be more compliance with the traffic laws, and while there might be a decided lack in style, the benefits would outweigh the minuses. Having said that, however, there are limitations to my admiration, and this 2007 Legacy Sedan 2.5 GT spec.B model proves my point.

First, let’s be honest. In general terms, Subarus are plain Jane automobiles. A few years ago the line tried to get some sex appeal with what it considered dynamic styling, but the cars came across as weird, not sexy. I was driving around the other day and we passed one of these marvels, an early-1990s model that had a goofy double window with a sort of skylight on the side, and my wife asked me what it was. "A failed Subaru," I said. There were a few failures in that era for the line. In addition to trying some strange styling to find an additional audience, Subaru also made a few models in two-wheel drive, and a very little car with, I think, the smallest engine in any of the regular car lines ever; I can’t remember what it was called, but we called it the Yugo-Subaru. Quite intelligently, I thought, Subaru regrouped, decided that the advantage it had was all-wheel-drive on a budget, and the company remade itself on an AWD basis.

Subsequently, Subaru has made forays into the road rally market with the WRX, and it has proven to be very popular. Personally, I never liked the WRX because I think "speed" and "Subaru" are oxymorons, but I have to give the model its due in that it has remained in the line for several years now and seems to be selling.

But Subaru, like many auto companies, has the problem of a flat market. There is a group of people out there who swear by Subarus and they are very loyal customers. Women, surely (and don’t call me Shirley), make up a major portion of the given Subaru audience, and I suppose you could describe the remaining given audience as those men who favor Birkenstock shoes and gorp. This crowd is first economical, then safety conscious, and they pride themselves on their choice of a practical, safe car that they can keep and drive for many, many years. I know several of these people, and they always seem quite proud of the fact that they have had their Subaru for years.

Therein lies the problem for Subaru. The company’s loyal base doesn’t come back year after year for a newer model. So Subaru needs to develop a new strategy, one that honors the devotion of its loyal base, but one that also might appeal to a wider audience.

This same thing happened at VW, with disastrous results. VW had it made with the Jetta, the Passat and the New Beetle, and then it decided to stretch its wings with the Tourag SUV and take itself upscale with the Phaeton. In the meantime, it had its Beetle base torn out from under itself by BMW’s Mini Cooper, and it forgot who it brought to the dance with the Jetta and Passat as it developed "quality issues." Rather than widen its appeal, VW lost some of its loyal market and its market share has been dropping precipitously in recent years.

Subaru already saw this happen in the early 1990s with the styling change I mentioned, so it doesn’t want to make the mistake again, or the same mistake that VW made. The WRX has certainly given Subaru a wider base, and that is good, but what else is happening I think is trouble. The loyal customer base I mentioned earlier favors the wagon models of the Legacy and the Impreza, but clearly what Subaru needed to do to broaden its base was to create a solid sedan to compete with the growing and strong markets for Toyota and Honda. The Legacy Sedan is, overall, a good competitor for the other premier lines, in that it is a nice sedan and offers the AWD that Subaru has staked its reputation upon.

But like all car companies, the temptation is to go upscale. There is nothing inherently wrong with a push to a higher marketplace, but for Subaru this is a tricky proposition. As I have mentioned in many reviews over the years, since Subaru first sells itself on the basis of safety, it is laying claim there to the same kind of people that are attracted to Volvo, another car company with a heavy emphasis on safety and longevity. The problem is that Volvos are, generally, more expensive, so the Subaru driver who happens to come into some money - the lottery, job advancement as they age, inheritance, whatever - has a tendency to move up to a Volvo. I have said on more than one occasion that Volvo drivers are Subaru drivers with money.

 

And speaking of money, when you start getting into the bigger bucks for cars, and for me that demarcation line is around $30,000, the competition gets pretty stiff. Here is where this Subaru falls down.See, there are nine trims for the Legacy for the 2007 model year, and they range in price from around $20,000 up to where this model is located, at $35,118. I like the Legacy, and it comes in both a wagon and a sedan, and I like both of them. But it’s a Subaru. It should cost, loaded, in the mid $20ks. Granted, some of the lower-priced versions here feature an engine, the 2.5-liter, with but 175 hp, but that’s enough for me in this car. It goes up the mountain well, fully loaded down with gear and teeming with people. With the model I drove, the top-of-the-line, they turbo-charged the engine to put out a whopping 243 hp, so, yeah, it’s got some speed, but again, it’s a Subaru and speed here doesn’t translate. It still corners the same, which isn’t like a sports car, and it still chugs along, so I just don’t get the point.

But the real issue is all the other stuff on the car. Hey, if you are going to trick a car out so you can charge the big bucks for it, trick it out. From the first moment I sat in the car I felt the seats were way to thin and uncomfortable, and the whole array of upholstery and door panels and rest just seemed to me more like a $25,000 car, not a $35,000 one. At this price, I can start looking at Volvo, at Audi, at BMW - and I can still get AWD and pay the same or not much more. But with any of those other models, I would get more car.

I did a little research. The 2007 Volvo S60 2.5T with AWD features 208 hp and goes for $32,735. C’mon, be honest. Would you rather have a Volvo or a Subaru?

The 2007 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro (AWD) has 200 hp and is $30,340. The A4 3.2 Quattro has 255 hp and goes for $36,440. Audi or Subaru?

The 2007 BMW 328xi (AWD) - 230 hp, $34,300. BMW or Subaru?

The 2007 Passat 3.6-liter V6 280 hp 4Motion (AWD) -- $31,910. Passat or Subaru?

Yeah, some of these will have less stuff and that will cost more as options (sunroofs, etc.), but if you answered $35,000 Subaru versus any of these cars, then go to www.gorp.com and get some snack food. The rest of us will take the other cars, have a better driving experience, have confidence that our resale values will be higher when the time comes, and, frankly, we’ll feel better about ourselves in the meantime.

Ah, but at $25,000 the Subaru would be just about the best thing we could get our hands on.

For $35,000 I want more. Give the car a bigger engine. Give the car more oomph in the interior. Give the car a little sexier styling. In other words, Subaru, if it wants to work its way into a high-priced market segment, it’s got to come at it with a car with more value for the money. What you have here is a $25,000 car with a bunch of stuff added on.

For the record, the spec.B Legacy has all the nice stuff. GPS navigation. XM Satellite radio. Power everything. Leather interior. Power moonroof. Heated seats. It’s tricked out, and most of that for the base price of $33,995. Here they added $456.00 for the XM radio and $42 for a wheel lock set, then $625 in destination charges, for a bottom line of $35,118.

For that price, I’m not buying it. For that price I want more car and less stuff.

So, if you want a Subaru, or a great AWD car in either sedan or wagon in the $20,000-$25,000 range, then by all means look into the Subaru Legacy and I think you’ll find that there is scant little competition. But when the price starts creeping to over $30k, look around for far better automobiles.

 

RATING: TWO WHEELS (OUT OF FOUR)

 

http://www.cobizmag.com/images/wheels/07SubaruLegacy2.6GTdash.jpg

The interior didn't live up to the standards set by competitors in this class.

Can't say I read the whole thing but what I saw seems on the mark. I agree about the lack of "quality."

Concerning all of those cars he mentioned..those are the base prices, right? SpecB comes w/ leather, 6spd, nav, 6cd, fully loaded out of the box...

Can't say I read the whole thing sure looks like its in the wrong fourm

The review is on an 07 spec b yet the pictures look like they are from an 05 legacy, can't even tell if its the limited version. poor review.

Geez......talk about stereotyping. He's obviously never been on a Subaru owners forum.

 

And for the record, I'll take a Subie over a Volvo, BMW or VW. Everybody has one of those. That makes them boring to me.

I thought he made some interesting points about Subaru.

 

Personally I think the Spec B would be more deserving of its price if it had a horsepower increase over the regular GT.

 

Considering Subaru already has that motor making 300+ horsepower in the WRX STI, I don't see why it doesn't have that increase.

 

And so the author is right, if I had 35K to blow on a new car right now, the Spec B would not be on my radar. BMW on the other hand...

I'm seriously considering making the trade to BMW.

That review highlights Subaru's problems.

That review highlights Subaru's problems.

 

Yes it does .

That guy is jerk off...he proabaly has an Aveo b/c cars are meant to get you from point A to point B....clown.

The review is on an 07 spec b yet the pictures look like they are from an 05 legacy, can't even tell if its the limited version. poor review.

Its actually an 06 Legacy if Im not mistaken, and if Im really not mistaken i think its the non-limited... The seats "seem" to have the almost 2 diff colors of black thats in the material seats as opposed to the leather seats.

As for the review, he did hit on some good points, but at the same time... I think he's a little biased against subaru rather than for another company in particular. Given, the Spec B would definately be much more appealing with more power under the hood. But as for the review overall, and saying that you should buy another car for that price, its true that the Spec B is maxed out on options (maybe not maxed, but a LOT of them ) and the other cars dont have all the niceties of the subie. But he never mentions repair costs either. Subaru's repair costs as compared to BMW, VW, Audi, and Volvo are cheaper (again, not a pro here, but just from what I've heard). There are a lot of other things to consider, things like VDC, tire pressure monitoring system, SI drive, and things like that... Im not sure what the other cars come with as Im not educated on them, but Subaru has done a great job with the Spec B (IMHO), but yes, they could do a bit better, mostly in the power for price part.

Well i think what really irked me was his whole 'well 175hp is enough.. and it doesnt handle like a sports car so whats the point' bit that annoyed me

 

Yes he does bring up some good points about Subaru's problems but I think the handling of a stock LGT even with re92's is just as good if not better then the TSX I had before which has always been showered with praise for its sporty handling in a 4d...

 

And the title under the Subaru Legacy forum catagory is "The place to come and talk about anything related to the Subaru Legacy."

 

I posted this to discuss this guys review of the Legacy, so please school me on why i should have posted this in news and rumors instead.

None of those European cars can hold a candle to Subaru's reliability. I have friends with all of those cars and especially the Audis and VWs seem to spend half their life in the shop. BMWs are slightly better but be ready to take out a 2nd mortgage when any serious work or parts are required. When they work, they are great cars, but.....

To me, it defeats the whole purpose to pay extra for a "premium" vehicle and then have to pay again and again to keep the damn thing on the road. Maybe I paid a premium for my Subaru, but to me its well worth it to have car that never sees the inside of a shop unless it is for regular maintenance. All 4 of the Subarus I have owned have been well worth the price.

OMG, its rundles!

 

That guy caused some MAJOR problems on I-club (AKA Nasioc when it was still called I-club) back when he reviewed the WRX.

 

The guy is a total wad, he SHOULD NOT be reviewing cars.

let me ever see him driving one of those other cars he mentioned on the street. then he could write a review of my garnet trunk and tail lights as they dissapear.

You guys need to take a breath & relax. The guy doesn't affirm your car choice & you call him names & question his integrity? C'mon, have a spine.

 

About the handling he's spot on - my old grand cherokee would corner better than a stock LGT. Certainly better than the OBXT. Either car with that kind of power needs to have handling/brakes to match, it's irresponsible not to.

 

In theory the subaru is going to be less maintainance & more reliable over time but to claim that Audi/VW/BMW spend half their time in the shop is a gross misrepresentation. Each of those cars will be more maintainance-intensive & a bit pricier b/c they're all higher build quality & well, German.

 

The payoff is that they simply drive better than any Subie ever will. But you make it sound like it's a crapshoot whether or not any of those cars will start in the morning - that's just stupid. Their reliability is as good as any out there.

 

And don't get started with the "my Girlfriend's brother's neighbor had an Audi that did this..." Seriously, if it were even remotely like you say all those companies would be out of biz.

 

Hey, here's a theory - Probably a safe bet that each of you will spend more on modding your Subie than you'd ever spend maintaining/repairing a car that didn't need any mods. (Me included).

 

I've enjoyed my Subaru. It's a good car. The problem I have with it is I can't drive it w/o thinking about what I should do to change/improve it. The way it drives/handles/feels just lacks something that no amount of modding seem to fix. When I drive a better car I don't think about that at all.

 

To me, it reminds me of buying nice furniture from Target. It'll look good from the outside, the price will be unbeatable, it'll last & I can pawn it off on a college kid in ten years for a decent return.

 

But it's just not the same build quality & feel as what I'd get from someone who spends his time making the best couches he can. The quality under the skin just ain't the same.

 

The point the reviewer makes is that for the price there's higher quality options out there. I wish I'd paid attn to stuff like that before I bought the thing. As is I've mostly resolved to make the best of it for a few more years until it's paid off.

Subie enthusiasts aside, the review does point out what the non-enthusiast public perception is. Perception >> reality for most people, hence the importance of Marketing.

The guy already has his mind up about Subaru and what kind of car they should be selling. It's not a good deal at 35k, I agree, but at the same time, people have had a lot of great things to say about the car, and he's fixated on the images of the car companies. He makes it sound as if it's a no brainer whether a Passat or S60 are better. I've heard more bad things about the Passat than good, and w/ the S60, it's looking just as bland as the Legacy these days and it's a Volvo, which is more granola than Subaru. As much as I've disagreed with other sources, I'd take their word over his, b/c most car magazines and reviewers like CR think the car is a good one. He should be complaining about paying 30k+ for a BMW w/o leather. So no, it's not a great deal and the resale isn't great, but that's not everything, and I just think this guy is a complete hypocrite and is ignorant in general.

Here are the "Jeff Rundles" WRX review threads. His first one was sooo bad that we got in his so damn hard about it that they pulled the article from their website!

 

Original thread:

 

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97421

 

Revised review thread:

 

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346064

The main issue is that he was comparing value of base priced spec B which is loaded to the hilt, with a base price passat 3.6 or volvo that are essentially little more than strippers. Once you add options like navi, leather, etc. etc. you are easily looiking at 45K for the passat,

 

???

 

Passat 3.6 4motion /w nav, leather/luxury package and the dynaudio upgrade: $36K MSRP and that's with an audio system that stomps the paper speaker Panasonic reject system in the Spec.B which is the exact same lame-ass audio that is in the base models.

 

If you're gonna rant about price you might want to get it right.

 

So the VW is a few grand more than the spec.b. The seats are WAY more comfportable. The trunk will hold way more. The interior is quieter. Having done raod trips in both I'll take the VW for comfort any day over the LGT/Spec.b.

 

But you're stuck with a slushbox tranny. If/When they roll out the DSG veriant in the states, or the R36 variant (one can but hope) the spec.b with it's swell springs, dated nav and lame audio system will not seem so hot.

 

However, I do have to disagree with the previous poster saying the LGT does not handle well. A grand cherokee handles better than an LGT? Only in bizarro land dude. Seriously. I'd love to see a farking SUV follow an LGT through the twisties. Better bring a winch or a come-along to flip it over after it rolls.

The main issue is that he was comparing value of base priced spec B which is loaded to the hilt, with a base price passat 3.6 or volvo that are essentially little more than strippers.

 

Yes the specB/LGT has faults, but show me another car that has its performance, level of features, all weather usability for anywhere near 35K before TTL.

 

Uh uh. You're basing the value of the car on the doodads that come in it & select features. He's basing the value on the car's performance as a whole. Sure it's fast & AWD, but that's all it is.

 

As for reliability, why do you think there are so many 3 yr old german cars CPO?

I imagine for the same reason there are so many Japanese & American cars for sale. There is no mass exodus from German cars at 3 yrs any more than any other brand.

 

Since you seem really angry in your post

No, just objectively disappointed in Subaru - it could be so much better.

 

Because many people are lemmings, and are unable to think for themselves.

So if these ppl were able to think for themselves they were agree with you, right?

 

My point was that a number of the previous posts called the guy an idiot because he didn't agree with their assessment of the car. This comment is in the same vein. It's like high school kids convincing themselves they're the coolest in the parking lot.

 

 

 

However, I do have to disagree with the previous poster saying the LGT does not handle well. A grand cherokee handles better than an LGT? Only in bizarro land dude. Seriously. I'd love to see a farking SUV follow an LGT through the twisties. Better bring a winch or a come-along to flip it over after it rolls.

I've never put the two side-by-side on the skidpad. Whoever had better tires would win, hand's down. But that's not handling, that's tire adhesion.

 

A car's handling is so much more than that. It's about how confident it feels in a turn, about how the car inspires the driver in corners, at speed, while braking, etc. It's about precision, feedback, responsiveness. And it's about balancing ride quality with performance. You don't get good handling by just adding stiffer springs. It's an art & a science. It's not qualitative.

 

That old Grand Cherokee was far more confident in turns, it was poised & predictable. The subie is manic & uncomposed, floaty & feels like a blunt instrument. And the ride's rougher to boot. If you don't believe me check the thousands of posts about ppl wanting to improve the car's handling. Or the myriad of reviews about how the handling doesn't match the engine.

 

Look people, if you want to lump me in with the "idiot reviewer who knows nothing about cars," that's fine. I don't hate Subaru, my car or anything else. I'm just pointing out the pink elephant in the room.

For the record a fully loaded (every option) passat is 41,984

That old Grand Cherokee was far more confident in turns, it was poised & predictable. The subie is manic & uncomposed, floaty & feels like a blunt instrument. And the ride's rougher to boot. If you don't believe me check the thousands of posts about ppl wanting to improve the car's handling. Or the myriad of reviews about how the handling doesn't match the engine.

 

Look people, if you want to lump me in with the "idiot reviewer who knows nothing about cars," that's fine. I don't hate Subaru, my car or anything else. I'm just pointing out the pink elephant in the room.

 

C'mon, are you comparing OB? Of course OB handling sucks and there is not much that can be done to remedy that. It's lethal, I agree, but comparing to Grand Cherokee? I'd not go that far...

 

Stock (USDM) LGT handling is mediocre. However, with simple dampers/springs/sway upgrade (just like JDM SpecB) you get it to BMW level.

 

And it's not that you upgrade inferior platform. No, rather stock USDM was downgraded to cater to cushy US riders and/or to cut costs.

 

You need to drive one to believe, I guess.

About the handling he's spot on - my old grand cherokee would corner better than a stock LGT.

 

So you're comparing it to LGT? You are on crack dude. I spent several thousand miles behind a steering wheel of a 2002 Grand Cherokee. Good handling in Grand Cherokee? Oxymoron. Better than LGT? You're on crack.