TimGinCentralNJ Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 From my extensive reading here re: aftermarket clutch replacement options, it sounds like the ACT clutch kit + WRX SM flywheel + TSK3 kit has been the route taken by a lot of you guys who've modded your rides with Stage I, II or III upgrades. For me, I've got a bone-stock 2005 OB XT used as a daily driver. Although I haven't noticed any slippage, after 72k of "babied" driving, I'm **thinking** it's my TOB which is starting to rattle when I press "in" the clutch. So, I wanna' be proactive in dealing with it...and hopefully save myself some $$$ in the process since I just lost my job in December. My clutch engages/disengages fine, I haven't noticed any slippage or any ill behaviors which would make me think my stock flywheel is damaged, but I REFUSE to go with the stock clutch again because it blows. The main criteria I have are: -increase in longevity-improved in clutch engagement "feel" -cost A couple questions I haven't been able to find answers to: 1.) Are there any good aftermarket clutch options which work with the stock DMFW--or am I better served dropping the coin on the WRX flywheel even if mine isn't messed up? 2.) I did see some reference to people switching to the 2007+ Legacy GT SM flywheel and clutch. Is this any better than my stock 2005 setup when it comes to longevity and clutch engagement "feel"? If so, could/should I also add the TSK3 kit--or has the TOB premature wear issue been resolved in the 2007+ clutches? 3.) And just to confirm, it sounds like parts for the full ACT clutch kit, the WRX FW and TSK3 kit run around $1000, and installation by a qualified indy should be around $400-$600. Accurate? Thanks, guys....I really appreciate it. Tim G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1anatic Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 If your clutch worked for 72k miles and your car will not be modded stay stock stay happy. Just get the OEM replacement clutch and call it a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 If your clutch worked for 72k miles and your car will not be modded stay stock stay happy. Just get the OEM replacement clutch and call it a day. Sorry, no way in he** would I ever put a pos OEM clutch back in any Subaru. Go aftermarket and be happy. http://www.specclutch.com/contact I think I paid less then that for my Spec 2+ and Spec LWFW. Like I said in the other post. 40,000+ miles and will still spin the tires in 2nd gear. No slippage like the OEM unit's in all 3 of my GT's, 98' 00' 05'. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosAngelesLGT Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 If your clutch worked for 72k miles and your car will not be modded stay stock stay happy. Just get the OEM replacement clutch and call it a day. You want to get MORE mileage out of a clutch??? You got a good run from a clutch in a AWD vehicle. Stay OEM or buy an Exedy (they make most of the OEM clutches anyway). Look up GripForceClutches on ebay. LaLGT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimGinCentralNJ Posted January 7, 2010 Author Share Posted January 7, 2010 If your clutch worked for 72k miles and your car will not be modded stay stock stay happy. Just get the OEM replacement clutch and call it a day. Thanks F1, but I was never really happy with how the stock clutch engaged, and sure as hell don't wanna' be doing this again in 70k or less miles if I don't have to. If it were a $500+ job out-the-door, I might be willing to go that route, but it's not. Thanks, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimGinCentralNJ Posted January 7, 2010 Author Share Posted January 7, 2010 You want to get MORE mileage out of a clutch??? You got a good run from a clutch in a AWD vehicle. LaLGT No offense LaLGT, but I don't buy it. 72k miles is nothing....especially on a non-modded car which has been driven very gently by someone who's owned over 12 manual trans cars, and has never worn out a clutch yet. Besides, my clutch is fine...it's the TOB which is failing. No excuse for that. I've never run across ANY posts or other information which attributes the premature wearing of these clutches or their TOBs to the fact these cars are AWD. I don't think there is anything else you can attribute it to--only that the Legacy's OEM clutch components suck-a$$ Thanks for the aftermarket recommendations though; I'll check them out. Appreciate it, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Tim - It's extremely common for AWD cars (especially ones with no real low-end power) to wear out clutches much faster than their 2WD counterparts. To launch smoothly, it's almost required to either rev-higher or slip the clutch more to get a smooth launch. It doesn't even have to be that notable, just a tad more even time you start from a stop in 1st gear. The car simply has more components to turn. And our low-compression turbo cars have very little ability to do that easily at 1500 rpms. Now a "normal" compression 2.5 liter might be much better. I understand your clutch hasn't worn out, but that's (to me) the main reason you will pretty much never see a Legacy GT hit 200k on the stock clutch, while you might see that happen on a Legacy 2.5i or Impreza 2.5i driven conservatively. The ACT clutch will provide a different engagement feel and more clamping pressure and it will resist glazing under severe slipping. But to my knowledge, it won't offer any more friction material to wear away. So under normal driving conditions on a stock car, I wouldn't expect an aftermarket clutch to last any longer. You'll definitely get more life out of a beefed up TO bearing though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostin1657615274 Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 No offense LaLGT, but I don't buy it. 72k miles is nothing....especially on a non-modded car which has been driven very gently by someone who's owned over 12 manual trans cars, and has never worn out a clutch yet. Besides, my clutch is fine...it's the TOB which is failing. No excuse for that. 72k miles on a TURBO AWD car is high. My previous car (N/A V6 FWD) lasted only 45K on the OEM clutch, driven 'gently.' If you are looking for improved mileage, sorry, aftermarket is not going to help. I guarantee you won't see half that life out of ANY aftermarket clutch. Aftermarket clutches have a better gripping surface and a higher-force pressure plate. More grip = accelerated wear, there is no way to get around that. Just like tires, if you want additional grip, you could go from a 400 treadwear rating to a 200 treadwear rating, but dont expect to get more than 10-12k miles out of 200 treadwear tires. The same trade-offs apply to clutches. On the search for a new DD... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psucaptainkickass Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 I am in the same boat here. While the squealing from my clutch pedal has been happening since November when it started getting cold, I didn't know the severity of things until now.I too feel screwed by the fact that after 80k (68k at stage 2), my clutch is still going good, with no slipping whatsoever (and I learned to drive stick on this car!), its not the clutch but the TOB (a $40 part) that is going to make me spend $1000.Anyways, I am going to be proactive and replace everything, and get the TSK3 so I've been looking at options. Yeah the TSK3 is more $$, but I plan on running this car into the ground and I want the clutch to burn out before the TOB in the future. I mentally justify replacing the clutch much better because it is burned out, rather than replacing it "since you're already in there" At first I was intrigued by the ACT+06 WRX Flywheel. At a cost of $800 it is $300 more than the OEM Clutch and WRX Flywheel combo. I just don't think that the extra $300 is worth it for me. I have had the stock clutch for a long time, it still feels good. I am at stage 2, so at my power level, the stock clutch is holding up just fine.Therefore, I think I am just going to go OEM + WRX Flywheel, and the only reason for that is because the DM unit is so damn expensive, and obviously it doesn't have to be since the 07-09s come with Single Mass units. Therefore, in this case, for me, and how I use my car, I am goign to go with...stay stock and stay happy...I personally don't have a problem with the clutch engagement. Again, I learned stick on this car, so this is all I know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 More grip = accelerated wear, there is no way to get around that. Just like tires, if you want additional grip, you could go from a 400 treadwear rating to a 200 treadwear rating, but dont expect to get more than 10-12k miles out of 200 treadwear tires. The same trade-offs apply to clutches. I'm sorry, but this is incorrect with clutches. Clutches wear out from: 1. So much slippage that the surface glazes over and can no longer lock against the flywheel. 2. Regular friction-slippage that slowly wears away the friction material. A grippier clutch might wear out because the owner slips it more to get a smooth launch (rather than a grabby one), but the grippier material in and of itself will lock against the flywheel faster and avoid minor slips that could accelerate clutch wear. I wouldn't expect longer life out of them than OEM, but by nature they won't wear any faster given the same driving habits on a full-face clutch. Joe P.s. It's fairly unusual for a 2wd N/A car with a properly sized clutch to get less than 75k out of the life of the clutch, and plenty of folks get 100-150k out of them. When driven properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoplightAssassin Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 If you go after market, go with a Spec clutch so you can retain your oem dual mass flywheel I went with the Spec Stg2 and Spec LWFW and I really regret the LWFW now...it chatters so much on decel...If I ever have my trans out I am putting a stock FW back in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 the ACT street disc and HD PP i think has the best feel and drivability of any clutch out there for our cars. IMO the ACT LWFW is nice too since it make the engine feel so light and revy. I had that setup for a short time and it was my fav, though it couldnt take my autox abuse launches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimGinCentralNJ Posted January 7, 2010 Author Share Posted January 7, 2010 72k miles on a TURBO AWD car is high. My previous car (N/A V6 FWD) lasted only 45K on the OEM clutch, driven 'gently.' If you are looking for improved mileage, sorry, aftermarket is not going to help. I guarantee you won't see half that life out of ANY aftermarket clutch. Aftermarket clutches have a better gripping surface and a higher-force pressure plate. More grip = accelerated wear, there is no way to get around that. Just like tires, if you want additional grip, you could go from a 400 treadwear rating to a 200 treadwear rating, but dont expect to get more than 10-12k miles out of 200 treadwear tires. The same trade-offs apply to clutches. Appreciate the feedback, but the part I'm still having trouble with is the fact I'm not having any issues with the WEAR of my clutch; it's the premature failure of the throw out bearing, which seems to be a design issue--at least judging by the fact the TSK3 kit seems to alleviate it. To recap, clutch = fine...lots of meat left on it. Throw out bearing = bad. ;o) That said, I'm not seeing the connection between my situation and some of the explanations eluding to "AWD" + "turbo" = "fast clutch wear". These explanations do make sense to me regarding clutch wear, they just don't seem to be relevant to the throw out bearing IMO. To drop $1k+ on another OEM clutch kit + installation when there's nothing wrong with my current clutch--and when the issue is clearly the TOB (which still seems to be a design issue)....it just doesn't make sense to me...especially if the new TOB is likely to fail prematurely again. Thanks, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 There is absolutely no guaranty or even any reason to assume that the TSK3 will result in longer throw out bearing life. If the TSK3 bearing goes bad than it goes bad. What the TSK does is protect you from damage if the bearing goes really bad - like you keep driving until the bearing literally falls apart or allow you to easily deal with an input shaft snout that has been damaged from the same. BTW, I would filter any advice to include only people who have actually replaced a Legaacy GT clutch (or at least a Subaru one) Of course, you probably should take a sample of your throw out bearing and send it out for analysis and then post the results on http://www.bobthesubaruthrowoutbearingguy.com Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultimakf7 Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Of course, you probably should take a sample of your throw out bearing and send it out for analysis and then post the results on www.bobthesubaruthrowoutbearingguy.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psucaptainkickass Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 To drop $1k+ on another OEM clutch kit + installation when there's nothing wrong with my current clutch--and when the issue is clearly the TOB (which still seems to be a design issue)....it just doesn't make sense to me...especially if the new TOB is likely to fail prematurely again. I hear you with this. I am in the exact same boat with the exact same feelings. Unfortunately, you can't just replace the TOB. To replace the TOB, you have to drop the transmission, and pay for all that labor. While the person is in there, the thought is that, just replace all the parts that wear. And at the same time, you can't just have someone poke there head around there to give a diagnosis, and then buy the parts you need. You need the parts on hand, and to get the best price you usually have to buy them somewhere other than where you are getting the work done. It sucks, but that's what needs to happen I guess. Hopefully, by putting the TSK3 in there, you'll get the full life of the clutch the next time around. This is why I am going to stick with OEM parts (but from a different year LGT). My OEM lasted this long, I hope the new OEM parts last just as long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psucaptainkickass Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 There is absolutely no guaranty or even any reason to assume that the TSK3 will result in longer throw out bearing life. If the TSK3 bearing goes bad than it goes bad. What the TSK does is protect you from damage if the bearing goes really bad - like you keep driving until the bearing literally falls apart or allow you to easily deal with an input shaft snout that has been damaged from the same. BTW, I would filter any advice to include only people who have actually replaced a Legaacy GT clutch (or at least a Subaru one) Of course, you probably should take a sample of your throw out bearing and send it out for analysis and then post the results on www.bobthesubaruthrowoutbearingguy.com So what do you think rao? To tsk3 or not to tsk3? Is the throwout bearing just going to be something that needs to be replaced every 75k? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Listen, the TSK3 is a nice product that serves a real need - screwed up transmission snouts. The problem is that you don't know if you need one until the transmission is out of the car. If you don't mind spending the money and want to deal with the fact that you will have to use a non-standard TOB the next time you replace it, then go for it. It is not a necessary thing unless the snout is ruined. The other fact is that clutches, pressure plates and TOBs are wear items (as is the engine, no matter what oil you use ) so they will have to be replaced from time to time. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1anatic Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 BTW, I would filter any advice to include only people who have actually replaced a Legaacy GT clutch (or at least a Subaru one) I which case I am not qualified since I only replaced 2 clutches (ACT HDMM x 2; 1 LWFW) on my 69k drive LGT. At 32k and at 68k miles Forgive me Tim; discount my opinion. You are of course right: anything short of 150k miles on an OEM clutch and turbo awd car that has surging tendecies and lots of grip is utter failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Touchy anybody can give whatever opinion they want What I meant is that I wouldn't listen to descriptions of the TOB and its wear unless the person has actually held one in their hands. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Rao, I have no evidence of the TSK3 TO bearing lasting longer, as I know it's only been around for a short period of time and doesn't have lots and lots of long-term users. That being said, assuming equal or better design (yes, an assumption), the TSK3 TO bearing should be moving around less because of the attachment to the fork, no? And it should (assumption) have reduced friction due to the cromoly sleeve over the quill? I checked out bob's subaru site, and it's kinda boring. Lotta red Xs and stuff about not existing. I'm going to go send a sample of the dust found in my air box off for analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 The TSK stuff has been around for a long time, obviously the newer Subaru transmissions have not. The theory is that the stainless sleeve is better than the aluminum "quill" and it probably is, the question is how much better is it and does it matter. You can improve upon every single piece of the car, that doesn't mean that every single piece should be replaced - Subaru already did that on the Spec B Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccorry Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Hmmm... I'm on the fence about buying a TSK3 for my upcoming clutch replacement. I was sure about it... until I read this thread. So far... I've only had slight whining on clutch disengagement (pedal in) on cold mornings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psucaptainkickass Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Yeah me too...the point is valid, it fixes screwed up snouts...if your snout isn't screwed up, then what's the point? It will eventually fail anyways like any other bearing. Replace a clutch every 75k or a TOB, does it really matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewZ Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Thanks F1, but I was never really happy with how the stock clutch engaged, and sure as hell don't wanna' be doing this again in 70k or less miles if I don't have to. If it were a $500+ job out-the-door, I might be willing to go that route, but it's not. Thanks, Tim fredbeansparts has oem clutch kit (pp, disc + tob) with single mass flywheel for $500.00 plus shipping Also, FWIW, my TOB at 53,500 miles was starting to make a little bit of noise and inspecting it seemed to show it was on its way out (gritty and grease-less). My input shaft looks perfectly fine, not even scored. I've never heard this 'snout' term outside of tsk3 discussion but it seems to mean the input shaft just rear of the clutch splines that the release bearing surrounds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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