GrimmSpeed 08+ WRX/LGT Top Mount Intercooler - Any Interest?

Just chiming in real quick from vacation. I will volunteer to give a tuning discount on the first customer to beta test this unit on lgt.com . I am always big on supporting the community when it comes to things like this.

This assumes the development follows through which it sounds like it will.

I think an iat sensor bung on the outlet side would be enough to set it apart from the rest and make a lot of people switch over. This would be great for speed density tuning on a tmic setup. It would also give a lot of people the ability to easily measure true Intake temps since there are a lot of tech geeks that just want to know.

grimmspeed -Thank you guys for your contribution to the community and continued support.

everyone else - talk to you on the 20th, gotta go!

Dave

Just chiming in real quick from vacation. I will volunteer to give a tuning discount on the first customer to beta test this unit on lgt.com . I am always big on supporting the community when it comes to things like this.

 

This assumes the development follows through which it sounds like it will.

 

I think an iat sensor bung on the outlet side would be enough to set it apart from the rest and make a lot of people switch over. This would be great for speed density tuning on a tmic setup. It would also give a lot of people the ability to easily measure true Intake temps since there are a lot of tech geeks that just want to know.

 

grimmspeed -Thank you guys for your contribution to the community and continued support.

 

everyone else - talk to you on the 20th, gotta go!

 

Dave

I may be that "beta" tester We also have a good baseline with the tune you did with my PW TMIC. I'm a sucker for all things Grimmspeed due to their quality and the fact they support our performance needs and build their products here in the states.

Enjoy your time off Dave!

My input, from a guy who's running stage 3 (or something) - bnr16g + injectors + pump, gutted OEM pipes (for smog), bulletproof TMIC:

I would switch for a solution that is

1) better than OEM

2) solid and fits 100% dead on, no massaging required

3) affordable

 

FOR ME, $700+ is NOT a workable price because I have a working solution and wouldn't expect more than 5-10 hp max from switching. I've passed on used Perrins at $400-450 because of the fitment issues.

 

For me, $399 is about the highest I'd go. At this point, the car isn't my "hobby" (I have the house for that - currently doing a major remodel ), so I just need it to be reliable, and a "set it and forget it" type of thing. I realize I'm in the minority.

This sounds like a heapin' helping of contradictory "nonsense", posted only because a simple "Subscribed" isn't good enough for people who have to tell posters in an intercooler thread about their house remodel.

Why in the WORLD would you go through the trouble and expense of modding a car to Stage 3 (for hobbying or otherwise), up to an including modifying stock parts by gutting them, only to cheap out on an intercooler?

I posted in the nasioc thread too, and since no one has brought it up here: I would like to be able to keep the engine cover - doesn't matter if it needs to be cut to fit better, but I like the stock look with the cover in place. Much better in case there is any attention from the authorities.

As for the other things:

A custom splitter would be great.

BPV/Clutch Master Cylinder clearance is important

IAT sensor bungs sounds like a good idea

Personally not worried about power or STi-style turbo fitment. BNR 18G is probably as big as I will go.

I think the best stock-style IC on the market is the AVO and so that would be a good benchmark for price. If you can come close to their price with GrimmSpeed quality, fitment and performance I think you'd have a big seller.

Show me a quality product for this application (TMIC) that isn't a Chinese knockoff in that price range...

I guess I should have been more clear that I didn't expect they'd be able to do it for that price. I was just stating what would make me a "no brainer" buyer. I'm a happy owner of their MBC brace (and yes, I had to massage that a bit to make it work). Same with the IP&T oil line kit.

Also, notice that I said "at THIS point the car isn't my hobby" - until now, the car HAS been my hobby, which is why I've modded it (that, and the self-destructing vf-40s - if they hadn't been dropping left and right around 50-70K miles 3 years ago, I would probably still be at stage 2).

As to why I've gone the route I've gone - CA CARB rules. If I lived elsewhere, I would have slapped on a new DP, and probably FMIC or a bigger TMIC.

However, I've also heard of all the problems with the aftermarket TMICs out there (I believe all of them have fitment issues). So, if they can simply build something that's as good as OEM and doesn't fall apart at 21 psi, I'd consider spending $400 on it. More than that, and it's getting to be a pretty big investment for little return in my case. I did say I was in the minority.

This sounds like a heapin' helping of contradictory "nonsense", posted only because a simple "Subscribed" isn't good enough for people who have to tell posters in an intercooler thread about their house remodel.

 

Why in the WORLD would you go through the trouble and expense of modding a car to Stage 3 (for hobbying or otherwise), up to an including modifying stock parts by gutting them, only to cheap out on an intercooler?

1) I needed a way to get out of the not-long-for-this-world vf40 (it was showing some signs of wear at 63k miles when I took it out). I was quite happy at stage 2. Stage 3 has been somewhat of a pain - but still quite smile inducing.

2) meet my friend, Mr. California SMOG tester. I've passed as is twice with flying colors. I've heard TMIC is allowed to be changed, but I'm very leery to spend lots of $$ only to find out it isn't true. Exhaust pipes are NOT allowed to be changed. Well, ok, technically they are, but you can't change any cat (not even a replacement - under 75K, and they'll force you to go the manufacturer for a new one). Stock pipes look stock and they have obvious cat bulges.

gah, hurry up already! i'm itching to get a larger intercooler and had AVO on the mind. but after the release of the STI TMIC, I guess i'll have to take a break from speed and mods. mixed feelings on that.

As for opinions:

- i'm in the "who cares" camp of whether the engine cover fits, strut tower braces fit, and having aluminum near the turbo. if you are worried about heatsoak, get a fmic (or coat/wrap/shield...).

other than that, lets get some sexy GS TMIC's in these LGT engine bays already! i'll be happy to beta test also.

oh, and subscribed.

Man, you guys are going gangbusters in here! I've got answers for all of you, but I may not be able to get to them until tomorrow. For the time being, here's some food for thought regarding sizing.

Intercooler Sizing

As air is compressed by your turbo, it heats up, not because of the heat of the turbocharger, but because as the air is pressurized, the air molecules are forced closer together and that results in an increase in energy. This energy manifests itself as heat. The function of an intercooler is to remove that heat from the intake charge. Removing heat from the charge air means that your intake charge becomes denser, making more power and reducing detonation. The proper sizing of an intercooler core is a careful balance of airflow and cooling capacity. When it comes to comparing an intercooler’s capacity to perform efficiently, it’s important to talk about both of these factors together. Simply quoting a volume or maximum flow rate does also no good.

A well rounded design is one that removes heat efficiently without creating a pressure drop that negates the gains from doing so. The main factors that come into play here are heat transfer area, internal flow area and internal volume. Heat transfer area is the total area of all of the fin packs and plates in the core. Internal flow area is pretty straight forward. This is the total area that charge air can flow, internally, through the core. Lastly, internal volume is simply the flow area multiplied by the channel length. Larger internal core volumes contribute to turbo lag and a loss in throttle response, as the entire volume must be pressurized before that amount of pressure will exist in the intake manifold.

Now, we’ll take a step back and calculate, roughly, a few of the variables that exist in our specific application, in order to determine requirements for maximum flow rate and cooling capacity. My goal here is to create a table that shows CFM requirements at a given RPM and boost level. To do so, I’ve made a few assumptions about volumetric efficiency, ambient temperature and adiabatic efficiency. These calculations will at least give us the framework to move forward confidently. Below are some applicable equations.

http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/product_images/tmic_subaru_sizingeq_1.jpg

As you can see, we use an air density ratio to accommodate for the fact that only in an ideal system do the pressure ratio and density ratio rise together. This is where a carefully designed intercooler (and a properly sized turbo setup) will help. The closer we can get the two ratios, the higher our efficiency. Back to numbers. Below is an example, using out calculations, for a 2.5L Subaru producing 27psi at 8000rpm, assuming volumetric efficiency of 80%, ambient temp of 80F and 90% compressor efficiency.

Boost Pressure = 27psi

Pressure Ratio = 2.84

Ideal Turbo Outlet Temp Rise = 185.34

Actual Outlet Temp = 285.93

Air Density Ratio = 1.85

Airflow Rate = 518.62CFM

So now we have a flow rate. We’ll add a little headroom and round to 550CFM for simplicity. Now, there isn’t any particular equation that will tell us exactly what size core we need based on a CFM requirement, but there’s a good amount of historical data and it’s been compiled into a single chart by Corky Bell in his book, “Maximum Boost”. This chart takes both cooling capacity and pressure drop (among other things) into account. Again, remember that all of this is to determine a starting point and some sizing framework. The actual size that we decide to use will be greatly influenced by the space claim available in the engine bay.

http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/product_images/tmic_subaru_flowareachart_550cfm.jpg

What you can see is that an internal flow area, according to Corky Bell, should have a minimum flow area of around 22sq in. with closer to 28sq in. for an intercooler of typical density. Without our rounding these figures change to about 21sq in. and 26sq in., respectively. For reference our 02-07 TMIC is pretty dense and has 30sq in. of internal flow area. This has supported over 600whp, so our math is right on track.

Here is where things get tricky. Below, I’ve taken measurements of the stock TMIC along with a few of the current aftermarket options.

OEM TMIC

Core Thickness = 2.25in

Channel Width = .20in

Channel Length = 10.75in

Number of Channels = 16

Internal Flow Area = 7.20in^2

Total Internal Volume = 115.20in^3

PW TMIC

Core Thickness = 3.52in

Bar Thickness = .25in

Channel Width = .27in

Channel Length = 15.50in

Number of Channels = 10

Internal Flow Area = 8.15in^2

Total Internal Volume = 126.39in^3

It’s worth noting that if we go back through our math and use values typical of a stock 2.5L, turbo Subaru, we find a maximum air flow rate of around 240CFM. According to the chart above, this flow rate, with low density fins (stock intercooler) demands a flow area of about 10sq in. This doesn’t tell us much except that the factory intercooler is sized about right for the job. It’s unlikely that they sized it for maximum performance at redline, so it’s understandable that they actually fall a bit short in flow area. If we can get these flow areas closer to ideal values, we can reduce the amount of work that the turbo needs to do to provide the same amount of boost to the intake manifold. This will not only allow the turbo to work more efficiently, but will also reduce compressor outlet temps.

So, we’re at a point where we need to consider a number of different fitments that might allow for a large overall core volume, but also for a flow area that will adequately and efficiently support a wide range of power levels. Feel free to poke holes in what I’ve got typed here and let me know if you see errors or areas where clarification may be of use! Trying to keep this technical but relatively basic!

Matt Beenen

Engineering

Aren't there already 4 or 5 TMIC options for the 4th gen LGT? How about something for the 5th gen guys? Our options are RacerX, pay $$$ to import from Japan or pay $$$$$ to fabricate your own. Needless to say RacerX is making a killing (and we appreciate his support for our platform) but some competition/options would be nice.

^ Yeah that!

 

Don't forget about us 5th Gen LGT's.

Thanks for the suggestion, fellas! It's definitely on our wish list, but right now, we need to know that the sales volume will be there. Tooling for these castings is very expensive and newer markets can be quite risky! Don't worry, we haven't forgotten you!

My input, from a guy who's running stage 3 (or something) - bnr16g + injectors + pump, gutted OEM pipes (for smog), bulletproof TMIC:

I would switch for a solution that is

1) better than OEM

2) solid and fits 100% dead on, no massaging required

3) affordable

 

FOR ME, $700+ is NOT a workable price because I have a working solution and wouldn't expect more than 5-10 hp max from switching. I've passed on used Perrins at $400-450 because of the fitment issues.

 

For me, $399 is about the highest I'd go. At this point, the car isn't my "hobby" (I have the house for that - currently doing a major remodel ), so I just need it to be reliable, and a "set it and forget it" type of thing. I realize I'm in the minority.

Thanks for the honest input. In the same spirit, I'll tell you that this will not be a $399 TMIC solution. With all that will likely be included, manufactured in Minneapolis, MN, it just isn't possible. Sorry!

I'd like to see testing with all stock size turbos in this fitment (VF40/VF46/VF52) as well as the largest OEM fitment (flanged) turbos like the BNR 20G or Kinugawa 20G, then go nuts with an STI fitment FP Red or stock location 35R. It seems like aftermarket options either cater to the VF40-18G range, or the big aftermarket range (20g+), with only the PW showing gains on all. The spearco was even shown to hurt performance on small turbos like the VF40/46.

Agreed. We'd like to make sure that we provide a good option for folks on stock turbos wanting an upgrade but also that people wanting to make some serious power can find success with this top mount. It requires a good deal of analysis to build something with that range, but I think we can do it! I'm picturing something with a little bit more capacity (flow and cooling) than the PW and substantially higher build quality/better fitment.

I'd like to see a TMIC to TB hose that is easy to install and stays put while you muscle the IC over the turbo.

 

Why can't that TB hose be a 1/4 to 3/8 longer on each end and a little more flexable.

 

Why can't the bead in the TMIC be designed to hold the hose on better.

 

I assume your product will come with T bolt style clamps ?

We love easy installation, t-bolt and minimal fuss. I think we'll have you covered!

The Process West nailed this aspect (TMIC to TB hose). They missed the boat on the quality of the hardware (clamps) though. I agree, for the price these high end TMICs are getting, we shouldn't have to go out and buy new T-bolt clamps or constant tension clamps right out of the gate to ensure a leak free installation.

We agree, 100%!

Just chiming in real quick from vacation. I will volunteer to give a tuning discount on the first customer to beta test this unit on lgt.com . I am always big on supporting the community when it comes to things like this.

 

This assumes the development follows through which it sounds like it will.

 

I think an iat sensor bung on the outlet side would be enough to set it apart from the rest and make a lot of people switch over. This would be great for speed density tuning on a tmic setup. It would also give a lot of people the ability to easily measure true Intake temps since there are a lot of tech geeks that just want to know.

 

grimmspeed -Thank you guys for your contribution to the community and continued support.

 

everyone else - talk to you on the 20th, gotta go!

 

Dave

Thank YOU for the support! This is an awesome offer. For the right guy, we may even be able to come to a special pricing arrangement in exchange for the testing. Let's keep this in mind as production nears. Enjoy your vacation, Dave!

Dave,

 

I may be that "beta" tester We also have a good baseline with the tune you did with my PW TMIC. I'm a sucker for all things Grimmspeed due to their quality and the fact they support our performance needs and build their products here in the states.

 

Enjoy your time off Dave!

Rock on!

gah, hurry up already! i'm itching to get a larger intercooler and had AVO on the mind. but after the release of the STI TMIC, I guess i'll have to take a break from speed and mods. mixed feelings on that.

 

As for opinions:

 

- i'm in the "who cares" camp of whether the engine cover fits, strut tower braces fit, and having aluminum near the turbo. if you are worried about heatsoak, get a fmic (or coat/wrap/shield...).

 

other than that, lets get some sexy GS TMIC's in these LGT engine bays already! i'll be happy to beta test also.

 

oh, and subscribed.

Perfect feedback! Thanks a lot!

Matt Beenen

Engineering

Thanks for the suggestion, fellas! It's definitely on our wish list, but right now, we need to know that the sales volume will be there. Tooling for these castings is very expensive and newer markets can be quite risky! Don't worry, we haven't forgotten you!

Thanks for listening. Been very happy with your EBCS so far.

Still following this very closely since I'm in the market for a new TMIC and a new tune because it's really not that great IMO.

Number crunching time confused the crap out of me but it's so cool how much attention to every detail you guys are paying attention to. I can't think of any company off the top of my head that goes THIS in depth.

Keep it up Grimmspeed!!

After my coworker got his TMIC off the group buy for his 04 STI, I've been waiting for one of these. Both of us are engineers by day and seriously picky about stuff... all I could manage to say was that it was a quality piece.

I've been following the thread on NASIOC on and off and I'm liking what I see over there too.

Mmmm...subscribed...this may come out just in time for my turbo upgrade...

I was tempted many times to get a used AVO or Perrin, but waiting and waiting for something like PW but hesitated to pull the trigger...cant wait to see what will become of this

Thanks to Grimmspeed for taking this on and I look forward to your finished product. You guys are putting some good thought and effort into this project.

What I would like to see are some actual numbers in terms of air intake temps post turbo, but before the intercooler, then after the intercooler, pre throttle body. Maybe I have not searched hard enough, but I have NEVER seen these numbers published on any aftermarket intercooler. I think these numbers will show where the rubber meet's the road so to speak.

Is this something that is hard to do? Why is this not talked about more? Please enlighten me.

For some background on my interest in this, I did my own little DIY TMIC project back in 2010 before the Process West intercooler was out. Here is a link to that thread just in case you want to use it for inspiration!

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...er-128914.html

Awesome! I 100% agree on the BPV bolts. Do people really do that and rely on the threads to seal? Talk about a terrible design! Hose kits are a must!

Yes, people really do that. AVO did that. And it pisses me off to no end. The bottom bolt hole for the BPV/BOV goes all the way through into the tank. The top bolt doesn't though.

interesting analysis. can't wait to see where you guys put the "sweet spot" of this TMIC. like you sorta said, you can't go "balls to the wall" due to space constraints, but you don't want a tiny TMIC that the 425hp guys are actually hindered by. but at the same time, where is the TMIC LGT market's sweet spot? not that I have facts, but I suspect most high horsepower applications go FMIC (maybe cause there's no TMIC that meets their needs, but I suspect several other reasons too), but then there are high PSI E85 lgt's too (so can't go too low). And on the other end, where is the point where a common LGT owner decides to get a new TMIC? stage 2+ and beyond? and then goes FMIC at stage 3+? business decision as much as an engineering decision. and is all limited by space.

can't wait to see what comes out the other end. I make these decisions a lot, but my customers are internal and thus are more specific and very few in number. don't envy your decision, but do envy what you get to work on and test.

I think 425whp is well into the FMIC range... at that point, you're mid 500s crank with rods/pistons and something GT30 series.

Give me something that's good for 350-375whp and I'll be happy.

Laughing DynoJet and Mustang numbers out the door, the local tuner/dyno shop uses an AWD SuperFlow dyno. Cobb stg2 OTS 93+SF, Invidia catted downpipe, Cobb short ram, custom 3" catback, and I did 231awhp/233awtq. I'd be lucky to hit 300awhp with a VF52 and a pro-tune (estimated), and that's all I need for a DD/fun car as it's my only car. If I wanted more than that, I would definitely look into an FMIC.

Thanks for listening. Been very happy with your EBCS so far.

Great to hear!

Still following this very closely since I'm in the market for a new TMIC and a new tune because it's really not that great IMO.

 

Number crunching time confused the crap out of me but it's so cool how much attention to every detail you guys are paying attention to. I can't think of any company off the top of my head that goes THIS in depth.

 

Keep it up Grimmspeed!!

Haha, thanks? I try to keep it as basic as possible without losing content/meaning. Any specific questions?

After my coworker got his TMIC off the group buy for his 04 STI, I've been waiting for one of these. Both of us are engineers by day and seriously picky about stuff... all I could manage to say was that it was a quality piece.

 

I've been following the thread on NASIOC on and off and I'm liking what I see over there too.

Awesome! We're a pretty picky group over here too.

Mmmm...subscribed...this may come out just in time for my turbo upgrade...

I was tempted many times to get a used AVO or Perrin, but waiting and waiting for something like PW but hesitated to pull the trigger...cant wait to see what will become of this

Thanks to Grimmspeed for taking this on and I look forward to your finished product. You guys are putting some good thought and effort into this project.

 

What I would like to see are some actual numbers in terms of air intake temps post turbo, but before the intercooler, then after the intercooler, pre throttle body. Maybe I have not searched hard enough, but I have NEVER seen these numbers published on any aftermarket intercooler. I think these numbers will show where the rubber meet's the road so to speak.

 

Is this something that is hard to do? Why is this not talked about more? Please enlighten me.

 

For some background on my interest in this, I did my own little DIY TMIC project back in 2010 before the Process West intercooler was out. Here is a link to that thread just in case you want to use it for inspiration!

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...er-128914.html

Answered you over on NASIOC, but we'll have some good, clean, comparison numbers for you. Additionally, MotoIQ has been testing our 02-07 TMIC for that last couple of months and they'll have some results and a review available shortly.

Looking forward to this very much. When you're designing the splitters don't forget us Forester guys!

I'll do my best!

Yes, people really do that. AVO did that. And it pisses me off to no end. The bottom bolt hole for the BPV/BOV goes all the way through into the tank. The top bolt doesn't though.

Yikes! No engineer here would get away with garbage like that.

interesting analysis. can't wait to see where you guys put the "sweet spot" of this TMIC. like you sorta said, you can't go "balls to the wall" due to space constraints, but you don't want a tiny TMIC that the 425hp guys are actually hindered by. but at the same time, where is the TMIC LGT market's sweet spot? not that I have facts, but I suspect most high horsepower applications go FMIC (maybe cause there's no TMIC that meets their needs, but I suspect several other reasons too), but then there are high PSI E85 lgt's too (so can't go too low). And on the other end, where is the point where a common LGT owner decides to get a new TMIC? stage 2+ and beyond? and then goes FMIC at stage 3+? business decision as much as an engineering decision. and is all limited by space.

 

can't wait to see what comes out the other end. I make these decisions a lot, but my customers are internal and thus are more specific and very few in number. don't envy your decision, but do envy what you get to work on and test.

You pretty much nailed it here. It's a tough balance and for a guy like myself, that doesn't like settling, it's hard to make a 'catch all' TMIC. The companies that claim to have done so are lying to you. That said, with proper design, you can make your effective range as wide as possible, which helps a lot.

I think 425whp is well into the FMIC range... at that point, you're mid 500s crank with rods/pistons and something GT30 series.

 

Give me something that's good for 350-375whp and I'll be happy.

 

Laughing DynoJet and Mustang numbers out the door, the local tuner/dyno shop uses an AWD SuperFlow dyno. Cobb stg2 OTS 93+SF, Invidia catted downpipe, Cobb short ram, custom 3" catback, and I did 231awhp/233awtq. I'd be lucky to hit 300awhp with a VF52 and a pro-tune (estimated), and that's all I need for a DD/fun car as it's my only car. If I wanted more than that, I would definitely look into an FMIC.

I used to be in the same camp as you. In fact, my own personal car makes around 600whp and I run a TMIC. For what it's worth though, this same design methodology worked out pretty well with our 02-07 TMIC. We have a tester car making around 600whp on our TMIC and E85. He made 521whp on the Karl Performance Superflow in SAE correction. Tuned by Graham of Boosted Performance. Since then, he's done cams, headwork, more boost and more aggressive timing. No fluffy dynojet number here.

Really appreciate the input though and like I said, I don't totally disagree. We should be able to design a TMIC with a sweet spot between 250whp and 550whp or so (with a target of 400whp dead in the middle) without trouble. Obviously it would support more or less, but less efficiently. To be perfectly honest, at less than 250whp, your stock TMIC is likely not your limiting factor.

I'm with those that are looking in the mid to high 300's whp with this TMIC. Once you go beyond that it seems that everyone's going to want go FMIC anyway. Plus at that point you've got to start worrying about stock internals, your tranny etc. For those of us that are really not into taking it that far, (and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that we're in the majority), this would be a great sweet spot.

Sounds like we're on the same page!

I've got some more analysis as well as some progress on the design to share. I'll get my ducks in a row here and post it all up early next week! Lots going on at GrimmSpeed these days. If I didn't have one of you swinging by tomorrow for some radiator shroud measurements, this TMIC thing might more along a bit more quickly.

Matt Beenen

Engineering

Really appreciate the input though and like I said, I don't totally disagree. We should be able to design a TMIC with a sweet spot between 250whp and 550whp or so (with a target of 400whp dead in the middle) without trouble. Obviously it would support more or less, but less efficiently. To be perfectly honest, at less than 250whp, your stock TMIC is likely not your limiting factor.

Agreed with the 250whp comment. I'd love to get closer to 300whp without loosing too much quick, sub-3000rpm spool, but that might be getting close to having cake and eating it or something like that.

400whp sounds good to me... probably won't ever get that high, but if I'm going to spend $6-800 on a TMIC, would I get one that's "good" for my power numbers but fits like dookie or would I want one that's slightly too big for my power numbers but fits minty? I'd get the one that's slightly too big... bragging to friends is good for another 10whp, right?