phenryiv1 Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 Today, I went to get a set of new tires mounted on my '08 2.5i, but the whole process was a colossal failure... In hindsight, there was information available regarding the issue that I encountered, but it really was not the kind of thing that came to my attention. I got to the service dept @ 7:30 AM for a 7:30 appointment, and I had forgotten one of my SubyBuck certificates. No big deal- I gave a credit card but they were going to hold it until I came back with the second certificate tomorrow (or Monday, as will be explained below). Plan was to use the $200 in certs for a M&B ($65) and alignment ($80), with the remainder to be used for some random parts- wheel locks, battery tie-down, whatever. I was the second car in line, so I figured this might be a fast visit. At 9:09, I leave the waiting area to check progress...and the car is on the alignment rack with the old tires still on the wheels. 90 minutes after drop-off, we are not even halfway done. Not a good sign. The other car was up on a different rack having exhaust work done. so that was not the holdup. At this point, I was standing along a curb opposite the service bay, just watching. Twenty minutes later, I wander back out and discover that the alignment is done but that only one wheel is off, and there are 4 guys huddled around it- not a good sign. I hear them cussing and see all kinds of pointing and people making suggestions about using pliers and vice grips. I sat across from the bay for a few minutes and determined that they could not get the valve caps off. I walked a lap around the dealership and came back to see the bay free of techs, so I poked in and looked at the wheel, and this is what I saw: http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k271/phenryiv1/Legacy/TPMSFail01.jpg After about 10 minutes, I got called to the service desk to explain that my SPT caps (a gift from my boss) had galled or seized to the valve stem. I had experienced issues with randome parts seizing up on brakes/wheels (I have an E30, which is known for brake rotor retaining screw seizing), so I treat everything with anti-seize (lugs, rotor mounting face, hub to wheel mating surface, etc.). I also never go more than contact when tightening. On top of this, I had just checked my pressuers on May 9, so it is not like they were on all winter or anything. So they tell me that 2 of them are busted and that the tire tech does not want to do the other 2, but the service writer explained (without me having to say a thing) that they can't send it out with different tires on the different axles. The dealership also sells Mazdas- maybe he was a Mazda guy... They told me that they'd have to order new TPMS modules (or at least stems, IDK) and that they were going to have to replace at least 3, if not all 4. Plus, I'd have to pay for the mount and dismount again, AND for the service associated with the TPMS change. I balked, but needed to get the car back to leave, so they ordered the parts and put in rubber valve stems for now (hello again, TPMS light!) Here are the caps, after removal: http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k271/phenryiv1/Legacy/TPMSFail02.jpg I did some searching online, and of course, threads on the forums (all of them, it seems) warn against the practice, but I don't really spend much time in wheel/tire subforums except right before I need tires. This is the first time on my '08. So now I am in the following situation: *New tires are on and installed, but with rubber valve stems on 3 of the wheels, and with the 4th TPMS broken at the base, *All 4 TPMS units need to be replaced, *The dealership wants me to pay for the 2nd M&B, the parts, plus the service charge to install the new TPMS sensors. My opposition to the last part is based on the following factors: *Knowing that all new cars have TPMS, the '09 and '10 Subaru brochures still list the Subaru accessory caps as being available. Even the Legacy-specific pamphlet still lists them. (Can't find my old '08 pamphlet.) *There is no TSB on use of the caps with a TPMS-equipped car. *When I went into the parts department and asked abotu getting caps for my '08 w/ TPMS, they gave me a price but no warning not to use them. *Instead of stopping when they had the first problem with the caps, they waited until 2 of the tires were mounted before talking to me abotu the issue, thus necessitating the completion of the M&B service. Now- no matter who pays- my brand new tires have to be dismounted and mounted again. Not a huge deal, but unnecessary. On top of all of that, I have to take more leave from work for the second service, as opposed to getting me out of there at 9:30 when they encountered the problem. It was 11:20 by the time I got out of there, knowing that I still have to come back for another M&B. The service writer told me that after my first concerns were raised, they had placed a call to their district or division about covering the costs, but as of now, I have not heard back. If SoA had issued a TSB, or if the product had a warning, or if they had pulled the product, or if the parts guy even had cautioned me against using them, I'd feel like some of the responsibility MIGHT be on me. As it stands, I really feel that SoA should cover the parts and the TPMS install cost, and that the dealership should have to eat the cost of the 2nd M&B (since it could have been avoided if they'd have just informed me of the initial issue). Has this happened to anyone else? Any recommendations? Am I crazy for my position regarding who bears the costs for the remediation? Patrick Looking for spacers or adapters to install aftermarket speakers in the doors of your Legacy? CLICK HERE or PM me! http://www.carstereoadapters.com./ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 You can buy just the valve-stem part of a TPMS module. The TPMS module itself bolts to the back of the stem. I do not see why they could not dismount the tires and take off your original TPMS modules. I am still confused as to what the problem is. Contact SOA and complain that the shop techs don't know what the heck they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 So the metal TPMS stems and the metal SPT valve caps don't like (or really like) each other and fuse together? Interesting. Since they are both Subaru branded parts, I would keep trying to get Subaru to foot the bill. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 FWIW here is the valve needed, these are the snap-in kind, not the metal stem. [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Schrader-AirAware-20008-Cadillac-Chevrolet/dp/B002GYQXZO]Amazon.com: Schrader AirAware 20008 TPMS Service Pack fits Snap-in Buick[/ame] Here are all the service packs which include the metal-style... just have to figure out which one you need. [ame=http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dautomotive&field-keywords=schrader+TPMS+service&x=0&y=0]http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dautomotive&field-keywords=schrader+TPMS+service&x=0&y=0[/ame] EDIT: This looks like the exact service pack you might need: [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Schrader-AirAware-20011-Service-Subaru/dp/B001O0FKRS/ref=sr_1_9?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1275585425&sr=1-9]Amazon.com: Schrader AirAware 20011 TPMS Service Pack fits Subaru (1-pack):[/ame] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenryiv1 Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 You can buy just the valve-stem part of a TPMS module. The TPMS module itself bolts to the back of the stem. I do not see why they could not dismount the tires and take off your original TPMS modules. They may be able to do just that, but I have never torn one apart to see what can and can't be replaced as components of the larger system. I just know that they necks on 3 of them broke, and the base cracked on the 4th one. At any rate, I don't see how (or why) is should be on me to bear the cost, given the fact that it is a Subaru parsts incompatibility issue- not user error. I am still confused as to what the problem is. Contact SOA and complain that the shop techs don't know what the heck they are doing. This: So the metal TPMS stems and the metal SPT valve caps don't like (or really like) each other and fuse together? It isn't that the techs are totally incompetent. The parts themselves (all Subaru parts/accessories) don't work with each other, despite being advertised as being an optional accessory for the Legacy. Interesting. Since they are both Subaru branded parts, I would keep trying to get Subaru to foot the bill. This just started a few hours ago, but if past experience is any indication, I may have a lot of arguing ahead of me. We'll see what SoA tells the dealership. Patrick Looking for spacers or adapters to install aftermarket speakers in the doors of your Legacy? CLICK HERE or PM me! http://www.carstereoadapters.com./ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenryiv1 Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 This looks like the exact service pack you might need: http://www.amazon.com/Schrader-AirAware-20011-Service-Subaru/dp/B001O0FKRS/ref=sr_1_9?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1275585425&sr=1-9 That does look like what was busted. Patrick Looking for spacers or adapters to install aftermarket speakers in the doors of your Legacy? CLICK HERE or PM me! http://www.carstereoadapters.com./ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 They are made out of different metals or coated differently, thus, they fused. The techs should have known right off the bat what happened and recommended new stems be purchased asap. I really good tech would know about these nifty service kits (which I don't think Subaru offers), which allow you to keep the TPMS module. But I would not expect all techs to know about these kits. I would hope someone there would have figured it out though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenryiv1 Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 They are made out of different metals or coated differently, thus, they fused. Exactly. For Subaru to want me to foot the bill is (in my mind) not acceptable, as they still sell the accessory caps, knowing that they could fuse to a set of stock TPMS stems that they KNOW are installed on the vehicles, and they don't WARN people that this could happen. The techs should have known right off the bat what happened and recommended new stems be purchased asap. I really good tech would know about these nifty service kits (which I don't think Subaru offers), which allow you to keep the TPMS module. But I would not expect all techs to know about these kits. I would hope someone there would have figured it out though. We'll se how they decide to resolve this. I am still waiting on their call. Patrick Looking for spacers or adapters to install aftermarket speakers in the doors of your Legacy? CLICK HERE or PM me! http://www.carstereoadapters.com./ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenryiv1 Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 Update: Dealership called and SoA is covering the parts and labor associated with this. I still lose time from work, but it could be worse. It does stink that the $15 that my boss spent on the cool SPT caps is now down the drain... Patrick Looking for spacers or adapters to install aftermarket speakers in the doors of your Legacy? CLICK HERE or PM me! http://www.carstereoadapters.com./ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 he coulda spent $45 on locking ones My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 Update: Dealership called and SoA is covering the parts and labor associated with this. I still lose time from work, but it could be worse. It does stink that the $15 that my boss spent on the cool SPT caps is now down the drain... Glad to hear. The TPMS modules are worth money - if they get you all new ones from Subaru I wonder what they will do with the old ones. Either way, at least you are covered. I should go check my anodized aluminum caps right now.... and put some anti-seize on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenryiv1 Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 he coulda spent $45 on locking ones I am going to see if they will give me the $15 in credit toward wheel locks. Patrick Looking for spacers or adapters to install aftermarket speakers in the doors of your Legacy? CLICK HERE or PM me! http://www.carstereoadapters.com./ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBamin Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 yeah our local wheel doctor he says it happens all the time with metal caps, so he never puts metal caps on, he always uses plastic ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malt Beverage Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 If you were in my shop and I had previously sold you those valve caps, I'd have a set of 4 sensors on the way at no charge . I work with TPMS sensors on a daily basis and run into your issue very often. Basically the main reason for failure of sensors is either the use of standard valve caps (ie from rubber stems) or no valve cap at all. Once water and dirt gets into the valve core, they freeze up. The valve caps for TPMS sensor are slightly smaller and incorporate a rubber seal that keeps things dry and clean. Even though some sensors come with specially designed metal caps, the industry has found that they too like to corrode and seize to the stem. I use service kits any time a tire is changed or serviced. This replaces all of the items that will give you trouble (and trust me they wear out quick!) It's cheap insurance at the end of the day (I have a whole pile of "good" sensors with stems that snapped from a seized cap or a stuck valve core. It's all about PM! Luckily many companies are going to a rubber or alloy stem that can be removed from the sensor itself and replaced. Subaru if i recall has done this, but most of the sensors in older models are still one piece designs that need to be maintained regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenryiv1 Posted June 7, 2010 Author Share Posted June 7, 2010 ^^^ Good general info in that post. Awareness is the key. Subaru does not publicize the potential issues, and consumers (like me) don't really think about the potential issues. I am normally fairly informed of the impacts of a modification, btu to call valve caps a "mod" is a stretch. As such, I tossed them on and never thought twice about it. Patrick Looking for spacers or adapters to install aftermarket speakers in the doors of your Legacy? CLICK HERE or PM me! http://www.carstereoadapters.com./ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegGT24 Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 Had the same problem with the SPT caps. I had one seize up on one of my wheels and I ended up replaceing the stem and TPMS as well. I highly suggest not buying the SPT caps and sticking with plastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenryiv1 Posted June 16, 2010 Author Share Posted June 16, 2010 Update (or lack thereof): Parts still not in. What a cluster. I am just glad that I went to the dealership for the M&B, or else any other tire place would have been more difficult to deal with when they broke the TPMS, and if I tried to make the claim against Subaru, they would blame the tire techs. With the service being done at the dealership, they can only blame themselves. Patrick Looking for spacers or adapters to install aftermarket speakers in the doors of your Legacy? CLICK HERE or PM me! http://www.carstereoadapters.com./ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admrl Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 Thought i would chime in to this thread as well, even if its been inanimate for a few months: I had metal SPT caps on my 2007 LGT rims. The same thing happened, except Subaru didnt break them off, i did. But, they were certifiably fused. And i had tires that needed air, so i went straight to Subaru. Now, the kicker is... Ive had the car for a year now, and put air in the tires all the time. BUT, i WAS in NYS, and now im down in Dallas, where its 110 degrees. The dealership wouldnt do much about taking the sensors OUT (federal mandate and all), and theyre the one piece ones, so they couldnt fix the stems (they said). So, 400 dollars. (I only needed three, i got one cap off). I was disappointed by this, since i dont care for the sensors anyway. The tire cleaner i use destroys them, so the light is on the dashboard at all times anyway. NTB wouldnt take the sensors out, so i wouldve had to jackstand the car, dismount the tires, take the sensors out at home, etc. Not even worth the hassle, if its possible. I called SoA, and they said it wasnt something they would reimburse on, for several reasons: 1. They were aftermarket parts. 2. The car was out of warranty. To the first, i explained that they were THEIR aftermarket parts, and to the second i asked why a warranty that is time and mileage expiring in nature, has to do with a defect of parts they manufacture MELTING. They conceded a little, and offered to pay for 50% of the repair. I wasnt thrilled, but i accepted it. Got the car fixed, and then wrote an email to Customer Service at SoA. i explained that while i was happy they were gracious enough to pay for half, it wasnt right that i was having to pay for ANYTHING, considering theyre parts they sell FOR this car, that BROKE this car. I went on to explain that since i now live in a very warm climate that the car evidently isnt capable of functioning in (sarcasm), my next car would have to be the first in 6 cars that wasnt a subaru. I was QUITE shocked, this morning, to wake up to an email from SoA, saying they changed their mind and would cover the full cost. Nice, on their part, to make good on it. Irony: The new sensors came with metal caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malt Beverage Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 Irony: The new sensors came with metal caps. Some tpms sensors do come with metal caps. These are made for the sensors. You need to find the special plastic tpms caps. (regular old valve caps will allow air/water to freeze the valve core). The plasic caps have a special seal and fit nice and snug. Also rebuild the sensors every year or whenever you have the tire taken off. This will make sure they don't have time to freeze up between part changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admrl Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 The only thing i want the sensors to do, is have functioning valve stems that i can use to put air in the tires. I dont care if they read Tire pressure at all. In fact, the fourth (that i didnt replace) is still broken. My point is, its funny that they COME with the metal caps. But its no big deal, i might just take the caps off all together, because i really dont give a damn if the sensors work. The light has been on my dashboard since the first time i got the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malt Beverage Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 I use to hate TPMS and never wanted it in my car. Since I learned how to service sensors and relearn tire pressure systems, it's actually really simple to keep working. It's just a general maintenance item like oil changes or alignments. It will save your tire from runflat damage (thus keeping a nail puncture safely repairable) if the system is working and you actually pull over when the light comes on . For under $100 paid once a year to rebuild the sensors, relearn the system, and balance the tires, that's worth every penny. I mean how much do you spend on oil changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admrl Posted September 4, 2010 Share Posted September 4, 2010 Its not a matter of keeping them working. I accept that theyre a mandate from the government, and thats fine. But i disagree first, on the value for one hundred dollars a year. Im meticulous about checking my air tire pressure, hence the reason i had time to drive for two days with the stems broken and it not being an issue. Ive had 3 situations where tires went down, in the 12 years ive been driving: One was moving a 20 year old car across town from storage (that i shouldnt have been driving in its condition), and a dryrotted tire blew out (completely shredded). The second was vandals while my car sat at the airport. Came home to two sidewalls punctured, tires were already flat. One was running over a Texas Turtle land Divider after i moved here. Sidewall torn, tire was flat before i even pulled over. TPMS werent saving me from any of that. By your math, id be up at 1200 dollars in maintenance over that period of time. Thats a LOT of tires. Its just not worth it. Lets say it wasnt even 100 a year. Lets just say i wouldve spent half that: 600 dollars in twelve years. Thats 6 tires. TPMS (to be value adding) would have had to save me from more than six incidents, instead of the gooseegg its reporting. Add in that certain tire/wheel cleaners and car care products destroy the sensors, as do extreme temperatures, and now theyre a nuisance, as well. And if it WAS just 100 dollars per year in rebuild, it still wouldnt be worth it. But now its also everytime you use a cleaner or something that wrecks a sensor, its a DM+M+B at a dealership to get it fixed. For no benefit. BTW, i spend less than 15 dollars per oil change. Labor is free in my driveway. And thats a cost that is value adding, since its preventing actual damage to the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malt Beverage Posted September 4, 2010 Share Posted September 4, 2010 Put rubber valve stems in and call it a day. For $0.50 a pop it'll be cheaper than running broken sensors and they will last longer too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admrl Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 Believe me, i tried. Subaru wont. And NTB wont, unless the rims come to them bare, with no sensors, and no car. Which means: Car on jackstands, tires to NTB, dismount, rims home, remove sensors, tires back to NTB (a different one), Valve stems and tires remounted, tires home, back on car, car off stands. It was less effort to bitch at Subaru, LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vr4Legacy Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 I'm with you 100% on this one Admrl, except I don't accept the government mandate! It's rediculous that we are forced to pay more money for a system that was put in place for those who pay no attention to early warning signs or any preventative maintenence. The way I see it, my TPMS is very sensitive. I check my tires at least monthly if not more often. On many regular occaisions my light will come on if the temperature drops 30 degrees overnight. Therefore I wake up hop in my car and within 5 miles the light comes one, when I first got the car I would pull over, kick the tires and scratch my head... Finally I have learned that 31psi seems to set off the sensor (not a flat) so now I am conditioned to ignore the light unless I hit a HUGE pothole or other obstacle that throws up a red flag in my own mind, which would have caused me to pay attention to how the car handled and pulled and check the tires as soon as possible anyway. IMO if a system is going to be mandated, it should be mandated to be useful. I.E. give us information such as actual tire pressure and which tire it is, not just a light saying "Hey something is up!" could be your pressure, could be bad sensor, could be temperature.... who knows!!!! /soapbox and hijacking of thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.