Baddog Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 So I have been playing with engines on my 96 Legacy L for quite some time. Some of you know, some of you don't. I have been having weird issue that I cannot seem to figure out. To start off. I had a 12:1 compression EJ25D/22E combo with delta cams. This motor ran like a top for 8k miles. Yes 8k. Motor was un-tuned on 92 octane. It was an experiment. Ran great till the day I blew a hole in the #4 piston. I then built a standard frankenmotor. You know the one with stock EJ25D pistons and cammed Ej22E heads. Stock head gasket size on both of these motors. This motor ran great until about 15k miles. Then it started to burn oil and all that jazz. Also started to idle really rough. I had scored the cylinder walls on the last motor when installing the pistons so I figured that would eventually happen. Decided it was time to build another short block. So I built an EJ251 with ACL race bearings and NPR piston rings. Cylinder walls are great on this motor. Short block is solid. Got this motor put together and used an STi HG when doing this motor. Same heads as I started with. I still have the same rough idle. Sporadic idle sometimes but not all the time. However always rough when warmed up. If the car has been sitting over night and I go to start it in the morning. It starts like it normally would but slowly revs up to 1.5k RPM's (cold start idle) but while it is doing this it is misfiring. Every morning this happens. About 30-45 seconds later this stops and the motor clears up. Wondering if my issue is in the heads. Since that is all I used from the last motor. So far what I have done. Crankshaft Postion Sensor Camshaft Postion Sensor Checked timing Replaced coil pack NGK plug wires New plugs Coolant temperature sensor Smoked tested the intake. No vacuum leaks. Replaced the MAF with a known good working one Replaced the IACV with a known good working one. Replaced the ECU Oxygen Sensors Cleaned the fuel injectors Replaced fuel filter Fuel injector o-rings Probably a few other things. Next step I am going to do a Leak Down Test. Just here looking for more ideas because I am just about out of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headtrauma89 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Valve lash, valve seats, bent valve? The leak down will hopefully help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baddog Posted January 28, 2014 Author Share Posted January 28, 2014 Hydraulic lifters. Was thinking seats and/or valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHCEJ22E1 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 What do you gap your plugs at? High compression & turbo plugs are best gapped at .028-.030. Have the heads had any work done to them? Remember, you're putting 22E heads on a 25D block, so you're asking those heads to do more than they can, & they will reach their limit faster with cams. What kind of ignition are you using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baddog Posted January 28, 2014 Author Share Posted January 28, 2014 This issue wasn't all the time. So I doubt something would all the sudden change by them being 22E heads. Stock gap. I never thought about that. Nothing done to the heads. Stock ignition other then Irridium plugs, Dodge Neon Coil pack, NGK Wires. So I guess not really stock, heh. It is a 251 block now as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHCEJ22E1 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 This issue wasn't all the time. So I doubt something would all the sudden change by them being 22E heads. Stock gap. I never thought about that. Nothing done to the heads. Stock ignition other then Irridium plugs, Dodge Neon Coil pack, NGK Wires. So I guess not really stock, heh. It is a 251 block now as well. Can't work with stock gap. It's too much. Your ignition setup is fine. Don't change it. 251 blocks are much stronger internally than 25D blocks. It should take quite a pounding. Change your spark plug gap to those I have posted & see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baddog Posted January 28, 2014 Author Share Posted January 28, 2014 Will do. I will try that tomorrow. Should I go with a one step colder as well? Based on what I have read this motor is around 11.5:1 with the STi HG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHCEJ22E1 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Should I go with a one step colder as well? Yes. Anything helping keep the heat down is a plus, even something small like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennyfvholla Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Yeah... I'm going to go ahead and say that probably has to do with the head/cam combination on a 2.5 shortblock. The 22E/T heads do now flow worth a damn... At 0.300" lift the literally flow HALF average CFM as a DOHC 2.5 cylinder head will flow. With the cams, you might be running into an issue with the ECU not being able to entirely compensate for the motor as a whole. And remember, cams, regardless of the the head/motor (on any car), are can cause idle issues. Also, with 11.5:1 to 11.75:1 compression, the combustion chamber temperature may be high enough to be causing ignition timing changes, and that might be affecting idle. I'm with Ken on trying a colder plug. I doubt this will help your cold start issues though. If I'm completely honest, I do not think you have any "real issues" and it's only a combination of cams and compression... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baddog Posted January 28, 2014 Author Share Posted January 28, 2014 This combo has never been an issue for me. My buddies car had no issues with the same setup. Forgot to mention the car shuts off when coming to a stop sometimes. Not all the time. It doesn't stall and die. It just turns off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHCEJ22E1 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Forgot to mention the car shuts off when coming to a stop sometimes. Not all the time. It doesn't stall and die. It just turns off. Possible vacuum leak... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennyfvholla Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Vacuum leak or a faulty MAF sensor. How's the fuel pump and injectors holding up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baddog Posted January 28, 2014 Author Share Posted January 28, 2014 Smoke tested the car no leaks. MA replaced with known working one. Fuel pump is new. Injectors seem fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zues Marine Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 which ECU are you running this setup on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baddog Posted January 29, 2014 Author Share Posted January 29, 2014 Was using a 98 5 speed EGR ECu 97 Automatic EGR ECU and now a 96 5 speed non EGR ecu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennyfvholla Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHCEJ22E1 Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 How about using a 97-98 25D ECU? They're FAR more suited for your type of setup & they have a wider range of "learning". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baddog Posted January 29, 2014 Author Share Posted January 29, 2014 Sorry. The 97 and 98 ECU's I used were for 25D's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleaidestar Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Is your current build the high compression 22e heads 25d block? I think you should be using A 22e ecu. I am doing this same build but with a 251 block and was advised to use the 22e non egr ecu apparently it is safer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baddog Posted January 29, 2014 Author Share Posted January 29, 2014 That is what I am currently using. A 96 non egr 2.2 ecu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHCEJ22E1 Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 That is what I am currently using. A 96 non egr 2.2 ecu The 2.2 ECUs have lower rev limits & are not nearly as aggressive as the 25D ECUs. I know this through experience with the hybrids & stock variations of both engines. The 25D ECU is far better for this application. If non-EGR is what you need, just get a manual 25D ECU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baddog Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 I've switched between the ecu and no change. I still have all the ecus. Did a leak down test. Was between 15-17 percent on all cylinders. Have a video I'll upload as to what it is doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vr4 Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 My manual 25d has egr..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baddog Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 Video never seems to come out good. Anyways. Motor stalls hard when coming down from revs and sometimes just shuts off randomly. I checked my timing and it is half a tooth off on the drivers side. But if I were to adjust it at all it would be just as far off on the opposite side. Did a leak down test and all are between 15-17%. So they are all consistent. When all the timing marks are lined up is it normal for the intake valves to be open on cylinder 2 and the exhaust open on cylinder 4? Got one step colder plugs and gapped them to .28 with no change. http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz223/Baddog909/th_20140129_171031_zpsdaucohys.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHCEJ22E1 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Video never seems to come out good. Anyways. Motor stalls hard when coming down from revs and sometimes just shuts off randomly. I checked my timing and it is half a tooth off on the drivers side. But if I were to adjust it at all it would be just as far off on the opposite side. Half a tooth? What timing belt did you use for the crank & gears? Did a leak down test and all are between 15-17%. So they are all consistent. Then the problem isn't within the engine but on the outside of it. When all the timing marks are lined up is it normal for the intake valves to be open on cylinder 2 and the exhaust open on cylinder 4? I'm pretty sure that's supposed to happen. The opposite should happen to the other head as well. Got one step colder plugs and gapped them to .28 with no change. This works when you're running the car off a load or raising RPMs but it should also affect the idle to a degree. How is your fuel system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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