Wilwood Front Brake Kit

http://home.dejazzd.com/traskw/images/wilwood1.JPG

The major advantage of this kit are the fully booted pistons. Unlike most kits; these do not require the frequent tear-downs and rebuilds. Making this kit ideal for street applications. Before I post officially I'm judging the interest and response on the following Wilwood front brake kit:

Target Price is $1099-$1199 depending on group-buy size.

Installed Pictures Coming Soon.

Wilwood DynaPro four piston calipers (Fully Booted)

Wilwood radial mount brackets

Wilwood GT Directional rotors

Gas slotted finish

Wilwood forged aluminum rotor hats

BP10 pads

Stainless steel hose kit

Wilwood 570 Brake fluid - (12oz)

The DynaPro four-piston radial mount caliper combines pure race technology with a new generation of Wilwood performance enhancements. Its sleek profile, superior strength, and durability in adverse conditions are easily adapted to a broad range of sports, rally and off-road driving applications.

http://www.wilwood.com/Products/001-Calipers/014-DRM/DynaPro-Caliper.jpgThe strength of the DynaPro is a combination of process and design. The process of stress-flow forging re-aligns the metal's grain structure within the contour of the caliper body. This eliminates the stresses and interruptions to the internal grain structure that occur when machining a straight block billet. The FEA generated radial transition design eliminates steps and shoulders in the area between the piston housing body and the caliper bridges. Incorporating a radius in this critical area substantially increases resistance to deflection and caliper separation under load. Structural deflection and volume displacement tests have proven the efficiency of this innovative design. Without even considering the overall greater strength and reliability of the billet forging, the reduction in overall deflection and fluid volume displacement translate to increased clamping efficiency with less pedal travel. The bottom line is a firm pedal with outstanding stopping power. The superior strength of this innovative design is combined with a new generation of Wilwood performance features. The DynaPro uses a new 7816 type brake pad that is supported from the top by Quick-Clip pad retainers. This feature eliminates the need for a pad support step in the bottom of the caliper and adds additional clearance for mounting closer to the hub on small wheel and small rotor applications. The pad radius matches to rotor diameters between 9.45" (240,0mm) and 12.19" (309,6 mm), and the caliper fits easily inside many 13.00" wheel applications. The Quick-Clips also accommodate easy pad access without caliper removal. PolyMatrix pad compounds are available to cover the full range of sport and competition applications. Other new Wilwood features include coated aluminum pistons fitted with high temperature rubber boots that seal out dirt, moisture, and debris from the piston bores in less than friendly environments.

Every caliper is equipped with Wilwood's SRS stainless steel bridge plates. The SRS plates eliminate the bridge wear caused by pad gouging and extend the service life of the caliper body. The spring-loading action of the SRS plates also eliminates pad rattle and dampens the vibration harmonics that contribute to squeal under braking. Internal fluid passages eliminate the need for external tubes. Four corner bleed screws assure simple and effective air evacuation, and allow one caliper to be mounted in any front, rear, right or left position.

The Wiwood DP caliper is a very popular "mid size" caliper with full size performance. The Dyna Pro is also one of the few dust booted calipers in the line. Quick release pad retainers make pad swaps a breeze.

GT Series Directional Vane Rotors:

GT-36 and GT-48 vane rotors are built for the extreme conditions of professional motorsports. The superior heat absorption and dissipation characteristics of these heavy wall directional vane rotors are the keys to preventing heat fade and realizing long service life from the rotors and pads. All rotors are cast from premium grade, long grain carbon iron for long wear, thermal stability, and resistance to distortion.

Every GT rotor is fully detail machined to eliminate stress point and unnecessary weight away from the pad sweep face. The faces and O.D. are precision turned to less than .001" for flatness, parallelism, and run-out. An asymmetrical face slot pattern provides smoother engagement through reduced harmonics and improved thermal balance between the I.D. and O.D. of the rotor. Every rotor is then individually dynamic balanced to provide vibration free performance at any speed. These rotors provide the highest cooling capacity and longest service life for extreme braking short tracks and road course competition.

"BP-10" Compound

Low temperature use - low in noise and dust- things important to the street kit. However when pushed harder and allowed to warm up BP10 exhibits improved bite and performance.This pad should offer a reasonable light track day use without fade yet allow the user to drive it home. A very consistent, full temperature range pad.

http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/images/D_T_BP10_BP20.gif

So these will use a smaller rotor than stock?

Would be better also if you got the Superlite calipers.

We're currently working on a similar setup that is ready to go also. Can offer you dealer pricing if you are a dealer.

So these will use a smaller rotor than stock?

 

Would be better also if you got the Superlite calipers.

 

We're currently working on a similar setup that is ready to go also. Can offer you dealer pricing if you are a dealer.

With in reason, much larger rotors return very little on ones investment, at that, mostly for looks. The stopping power of this kit is vastly superior to stock. Whether you compare fade, performance, or the annoying issues with rotor warpage that our stock brakes have; these are vastly superior. From the GT rotors to the 4 pot set-up. These also allow the use of lighter and smaller diameter wheels for drag, rally, or just winter use.

I appreciate the comment on the Superlite (as those are the ones you sell?) but the Dynopro are fully dust booted and a better choice for those looking for an upgrade over stock without having additional maintenance. This kit will offer similar, if not easier maintenance to stock, in a midsize kit with big brake performance.

I work for a dealer in NE PA.

What size rotors does your kit use?

Cool. Good to see other people bringing new stuff to the aftermarket for these cars. There are different markets for different kits I guess. A DynaPro based kit would probably be good for street use only.

The only reason I suggested Superlite (and why we based our kits off the Superlite, rather than Dynlalite or DynaPro), is flexibility. You can use it with stock rotors, DBA4000 rotors, upcoming 2piece rotors, etc. There are a multitude of pad options available as well. This is not the case for the DynaPro, which would force you to use Wilwood BP10s. Have you ever talked to someone who used BP10s!

As far as dust boots go. Also not something you want for anyone who might be tracking their LGTs. They are prone to cracking and burning out. The best solution for safe and reliable high performance calipers is to eliminate the rubber boots and build pistons from good quality, non-corroding stainless steel.

Pad thickness on the DynaPro is also limited to 12mm versus 20mm for the Superlite. So youre going to be going through pads a lot faster also.

Stopping Power: Stopping power is not as easily linked to brake calipers as most imagine. In many cases, it isnt even a direct correlation. Tires have the most effect on stopping power. Calipers would define pedal feel and pressure.

Rotor Warpage: This is also a common misconception here. Many theorize, and they are probably right, that this is a result of the OE pad compound leaving deposits on rotors. There are plenty of owners running a variety of aftermarket pads (Hawk, Carbotech, etc) on OE-rotors with no issues.

Rotor Size: You are right that big brake kits, etc typically add to rotating mass. However, most people do not go smaller than stock. The only places I would see this as a benefit would be as you said, drag racing or perhaps even autocross. For anything else, you WANT mass. That is how the brake system works!! Youre converting energy to heat! That heat needs somewhere to go.

Caliper Size: Again. Heat. The DynaPro is much smaller. Might even be smaller than stock. Pad swept area is less too. Not good in terms of brake performance.

If interested in our Superlite based kits, send me a PM and I can forward you info. No need for dealer setup, no need for buy-ins and no need to setup Group Buys.

Cool. Good to see other people bringing new stuff to the aftermarket for these cars. There are different markets for different kits I guess. A DynaPro based kit would probably be good for street use only.

 

The only reason I suggested Superlite (and why we based our kits off the Superlite, rather than Dynlalite or DynaPro), is flexibility. You can use it with stock rotors, DBA4000 rotors, upcoming 2piece rotors, etc. There are a multitude of pad options available as well. This is not the case for the DynaPro, which would force you to use Wilwood BP10s. Have you ever talked to someone who used BP10s!

 

As far as dust boots go. Also not something you want for anyone who might be tracking their LGTs. They are prone to cracking and burning out. The best solution for safe and reliable high performance calipers is to eliminate the rubber boots and build pistons from good quality, non-corroding stainless steel.

 

Pad thickness on the DynaPro is also limited to 12mm versus 20mm for the Superlite. So youre going to be going through pads a lot faster also.

 

Stopping Power: Stopping power is not as easily linked to brake calipers as most imagine. In many cases, it isnt even a direct correlation. Tires have the most effect on stopping power. Calipers would define pedal feel and pressure.

 

Rotor Warpage: This is also a common misconception here. Many theorize, and they are probably right, that this is a result of the OE pad compound leaving deposits on rotors. There are plenty of owners running a variety of aftermarket pads (Hawk, Carbotech, etc) on OE-rotors with no issues.

 

Rotor Size: You are right that big brake kits, etc typically add to rotating mass. However, most people do not go smaller than stock. The only places I would see this as a benefit would be as you said, drag racing or perhaps even autocross. For anything else, you WANT mass. That is how the brake system works!! Youre converting energy to heat! That heat needs somewhere to go.

 

If interested in our Superlite based kits, send me a PM and I can forward you info. No need for dealer setup, no need for buy-ins and no need to setup Group Buys.

Thanks for hijacking this thread by the way. I realize you are trying to push your product, but you are giving some misinformation.

These calipers use a variety of pads, including those from Wilwood: compound A, B, D, H, BP-10 and BP-20.

Because you are not telling me the diameter, I would guess you're using stock size or a even a modified stock rotor? These are the two piece GT Rotors with forged aluminum hats. The material, contact area, and design also have a big impact on heat dissipation. These 12.2 are superior to the stock 12.3, with less rotating mass and greater contact area. The last .2 of the stock rotor is not even in contact with the pad and tends to rust and flake off.

In my experience, as I own the product and vehicle type in question, the dust boot is a big advantage and a very rare failure, you would have to do several rebuilds of the non booted caliper before ever having to worry about replacing the boots. These calipers were designed for heavy off-road use, they not only hold up to high temperatures, but keep out dirt, dust, and debris.

This set-up is balanced for those that drive more on the street than track, but make no mistake, everything from the off-road rated racing calipers to the GT Rotors, (some of the best Wilwood makes), are top quality.

Thanks for hijacking this thread by the way. I realize you are trying to push your product, but you are giving some misinformation.

 

These calipers use a variety of pads, including those from Wilwood: compound A, B, D, H, BP-10 and BP-20.

 

Because you are not telling me the diameter, I would guess you're using stock size or a even a modified stock rotor? These are the two piece GT Rotors with forged aluminum hats. The material, contact area, and design also have a big impact on heat dissipation. These 12.2 are superior to the stock 12.3, with less rotating mass and greater contact area. The last .2 of the stock rotor is not even in contact with the pad and tends to rust and flake off.

 

In my experience, as I own the product and vehicle type in question, the dust boot is a big advantage and a very rare failure, you would have to do several rebuilds of the non booted caliper before ever having to worry about replacing the boots. These calipers were designed for heavy off-road use, they not only hold up to high temperatures, but keep out dirt, dust, and debris.

 

This set-up is balanced for those that drive more on the street than track, but make no mistake, everything from the off-road rated racing calipers to the GT Rotors, (some of the best Wilwood makes), are top quality.

I was trying to help you out by making a superior product available to you as a dealer.

Stock is 316mm or 12.4".

I'll let you post whatever information you want. Im not here to argue with you. You can let others besides me with knowledge on brakes to chime in as needed.

DynaPro:

http://www.hrpworld.com/client_images/ecommerce/client_39/products/5518_hdr_2_l.jpg

Superlite4:

http://www.hrpworld.com/client_images/ecommerce/client_39/products/5513_hdr_2_l.jpg

The pad you have displayed also appears to be for the 6 Pot superlite not the 4, the 4 are not 20mm.

You would be correct. But since you are the expert here, Im sure you also know that the Forged Superlite4 uses the same pads as the 6pot Superlite6. And yes, the 4 is 20mm.

I was trying to help you out by making a superior product available to you as a dealer.

 

Stock is 316mm or 12.4".

 

I'll let you post whatever information you want. Im not here to argue with you. You can let others besides me with knowledge on brakes to chime in as needed.

I would argue the superior point depending on the application.

The stocks are listed as 12.3 in Subaru's dealer only tech docs.

Did that "knowledge" include not knowing that Wilwood makes six different pads for this set-up and providing false information?

This set-up is intended for someone looking for a superior-to-stock set-up for daily use and low maintenance.

The pad you have displayed also appears to be for the 6 Pot superlite not the 4, the 4 are not 20mm.

This kit is fully tested and ready to go. No waiting to test fit parts, no make-shift brackets, no shimming. Direct Fit.

Just look at the custom milled billet aluminum brackets:

(Don't mind the effect on angles due to the camera angle and lens)

http://home.dejazzd.com/traskw/images/wilwoodb.JPG

Just a note on size, rotor is 12.2 vs. stock 12.3 however the pad contacts right to the edge of the 12.2 rotor unlike the stock unit. If you measure the useable area on the stock rotor you get 12.125. No more rust line, no more cracked edges as shown on the stock rotor:

http://home.dejazzd.com/traskw/images/rotor.JPG

it's not about the rust line, it's about having enough mass to withstand the heat during braking under more severe conditions.

having tracked the GT and taken to more than 80,000 miles and have gone through probably more sets of pads than 90% of the people on this board, I can tell you that rotor mass is a big issue, especially when brake ducting is not an option to most users. And having said that, I have yet to see a booted brake system that has survived the amount of heat I have put my GT through braking. (I've also did heat tests under track and road conditions with the aide of rotor temp paints and have replaced a set of my OEM boots already).

You may have a point that what you are selling is just for street use, but you are limiting the car if someone was towing some heavy weight up and down a mountain. You really want to have more mass not less. It's about having surface area to dissapate the heat, not just for running "a matched" rotor and caliper size to eliminate rust.

i've gone through (and cracked enough) rotors to tell you that improper cooling of the brakes leads to it. It's also user-error if people are not well informed of how to brake properly to prevent brake failure. And namely, iron rusts, period.. there's no iron mix I know of that doesn't rust.. it's just oxidation of iron. A car can still there and the rotors would just rust after a rainy day. So your selling point is that you managed to have a pad combo that would cover the entire rotor just so you can scrub all the rust away when you brake?

Honestly, you dont want to shave off weight. Many other companies have claim "superior" metal when making their products, but few have been proven to last or hold up to even factory standards.

it would be better off to get an STI Brembo kit take-off if one wants to go bigger for better braking endurance and pedal feel. But for spirited drivers like me that want to retain the stock brake fitment, OEM have been proven to hold it's weight for beginner to intermediate level of track driving with just a set of pads. The product set that you are selling is for "street use only" yet you still claim it can handle "off-road use" and can you clarify why would a person want to buy a kit that doesnt perform better than the OEM when OEM has been proven (by me) that it is actually track-worthy yet this kit you are selling is not?

Thanks

it's not about the rust line, it's about having enough mass to withstand the heat during braking under more severe conditions.

 

Having tracked the gt and taken to more than 80,000 miles and have gone through probably more sets of pads than 90% of the people on this board, i can tell you that rotor mass is a big issue, especially when brake ducting is not an option to most users. And having said that, i have yet to see a booted brake system that has survived the amount of heat i have put my gt through braking. (i've also did heat tests under track and road conditions with the aide of rotor temp paints and have replaced a set of my oem boots already).

 

You may have a point that what you are selling is just for street use, but you are limiting the car if someone was towing some heavy weight up and down a mountain. You really want to have more mass not less. It's about having surface area to dissapate the heat, not just for running "a matched" rotor and caliper size to eliminate rust.

 

I've gone through (and cracked enough) rotors to tell you that improper cooling of the brakes leads to it. It's also user-error if people are not well informed of how to brake properly to prevent brake failure. And namely, iron rusts, period.. There's no iron mix i know of that doesn't rust.. It's just oxidation of iron. A car can still there and the rotors would just rust after a rainy day. So your selling point is that you managed to have a pad combo that would cover the entire rotor just so you can scrub all the rust away when you brake?

 

Honestly, you dont want to shave off weight. Many other companies have claim "superior" metal when making their products, but few have been proven to last or hold up to even factory standards.

 

It would be better off to get an sti brembo kit take-off if one wants to go bigger for better braking endurance and pedal feel. But for spirited drivers like me that want to retain the stock brake fitment, oem have been proven to hold it's weight for beginner to intermediate level of track driving with just a set of pads. The product set that you are selling is for "street use only" yet you still claim it can handle "off-road use" and can you clarify why would a person want to buy a kit that doesnt perform better than the oem when oem has been proven (by me) that it is actually track-worthy yet this kit you are selling is not?

 

Thanks

+10000

it's not about the rust line, it's about having enough mass to withstand the heat during braking under more severe conditions.

 

having tracked the GT and taken to more than 80,000 miles and have gone through probably more sets of pads than 90% of the people on this board, I can tell you that rotor mass is a big issue, especially when brake ducting is not an option to most users. And having said that, I have yet to see a booted brake system that has survived the amount of heat I have put my GT through braking. (I've also did heat tests under track and road conditions with the aide of rotor temp paints and have replaced a set of my OEM boots already).

 

You may have a point that what you are selling is just for street use, but you are limiting the car if someone was towing some heavy weight up and down a mountain. You really want to have more mass not less. It's about having surface area to dissapate the heat, not just for running "a matched" rotor and caliper size to eliminate rust.

 

i've gone through (and cracked enough) rotors to tell you that improper cooling of the brakes leads to it. It's also user-error if people are not well informed of how to brake properly to prevent brake failure. And namely, iron rusts, period.. there's no iron mix I know of that doesn't rust.. it's just oxidation of iron. A car can still there and the rotors would just rust after a rainy day. So your selling point is that you managed to have a pad combo that would cover the entire rotor just so you can scrub all the rust away when you brake?

 

Honestly, you dont want to shave off weight. Many other companies have claim "superior" metal when making their products, but few have been proven to last or hold up to even factory standards.

 

it would be better off to get an STI Brembo kit take-off if one wants to go bigger for better braking endurance and pedal feel. But for spirited drivers like me that want to retain the stock brake fitment, OEM have been proven to hold it's weight for beginner to intermediate level of track driving with just a set of pads. The product set that you are selling is for "street use only" yet you still claim it can handle "off-road use" and can you clarify why would a person want to buy a kit that doesnt perform better than the OEM when OEM has been proven (by me) that it is actually track-worthy yet this kit you are selling is not?

 

Thanks

My point wasn't about rust. My point was that a rotor difference of 12.2 to 12.3 is not a significant enough difference in size. Especially given the better design and metalurgy of the wilwood.

I take it you have tried to use a wilwood booted caliper?

Have you used anything but the stock calipers?

Which calipers have you used?

If you were not successful with the oem booted caliper that you also said you were successful with? Which is it? And if the OEM boots melt away, why are you still using them?

These are also available non-booted, but the average street user would not want the added tear down and maintenance. If you are going to tell me that the non-booted doesn't require additional maintenance then you should call Wilwood and tell them what they should change their recommendations.

The average GT owner does not track their cars, and the average serious racer would be more inclined to go larger for the very reasons you mention, say a six pot 12.9-14.0 set up.

We have those available. That's not what's intended with this kit. This caliper was design for off-road use. It performs better than the stock set-up, you can change pads without tools once the wheel is removed and they look better as well.

If the argument was a comparison of a 13" rotor and a 12.2" rotor, you would both have a point, but 12.2" to 12.3" is negligible.

I wasn't aware that so many LGT owners tow stuff. I use my outback for that, which has even smaller front brakes.

http://home.dejazzd.com/traskw/images/cub.JPG

I have to ask again, have you actually used this setup? Would the majority of LGT owners actually burn through even a stock oem boot?

I placed a thread to get feedback and immediately someone selling a similar product had to high-jack the thread. Are you saying that his kit using stock sized rotors would also be a waste of money?

I actually have these brakes on my LGT, they are superior to stock, the other seller doesn't even have a subaru. We've tried using aftermarket pads with stock rotors with limited success.

If you want, for a price, Six pot calipers with 12.9-14.0 rotors, no problem, that would be a better choice for you with all your track experience.

But, we've found the stock units, even with aftermarket pads, not up to snuff for mere street use. The average owner wants to put something on that looks good, performs better than stock, and doesn't need to be messed with.

can you clarify why would a person want to buy a kit that doesnt perform better than the OEM when OEM has been proven (by me) that it is actually track-worthy yet this kit you are selling is not?

 

Thanks

I take it you've compared "this" brake kit to OEM and through testing you've concluded this yourself?

What makes a 12.3" 2 pot oem track worthy and a 12.2" 4 pot (you've probably never tested) not?

If in 80,000 miles you've only ever tested pads, how can you discredit something you've never tried?

let's put it this way:

to have a controlled testing environment, you need to have some kind of standards. For the case that I have pointed out and I should have been more clear: stock calipers are what everyone has to begin with. The second situation is that having stock calipers and just doing a rebuild on them is cost-effective. Sure, they can (and have) ripped apart during track driving and even some case spirited driving through extreme cases of hilly areas. Wouldnt your kit would have to go through the same ordeal anyways when you cross that path? Even if I bought your kit, I would still need to do rebuilds. This is no different than doing service on stock calipers.

What I don't agree with is selling something that isn't better than stock. Regardless of the fact of booted or not, as an owner, you still need to check on your boots or pistons to see if they are worn or damaged and replace them. So what's next?

Another issue that can be debated is the metalurgy of iron. What makes you think that the iron that Wilwood uses for their rotors is FAR superior that would even warrant anyone to buy the rotors over the OEM, DBA or any other company? Wouldnt it be just more cost effective to offer the rotors alone and not need to deal with the calipers if the original OEM calipers are already booted? So what gain would you have for the caliper alone at this point (other than it's just easier to change pads.. and why would a non-track driving GT owner change pads that often when they can average 20,000 to 30,000 miles that would warrant them to spend this kind of money calipers if you are aiming to sell these calipers to non-track and street-only drivers?) It also doesn't make sense that you are advertising these to buyers who are non-track drivers and you are claiming for off-road use.

To make sense of my experience and findings, my method of testing pads and rotors first and only up to this point was to:

A) use what I already have as a baseline and change 1 variable at time. Changing from different wheels and tires is a start. Then I went back and tested by changing only with pads. Then finally go and use different rotors. All the items I've listed so far are all wear-and-tear items that wear out far faster than dust boots on the calipers. Out of the 80,000 miles including all the track and autocross miles, I've only had to build the OEM pistons once (which is about due for the 2nd time soon).

B) Being cost effective for the performance in return. Even if a normal driver doesnt track their car, they would rather spend maybe no more than $400 on a set of street pads that could last as much as 40,000 miles than to drop 3x as much to get calipers/rotors for medicore that last probably just as long in terms of miles. What actual gain are they getting at this point? Less warpage? doubt it, that has to do with driver understanding, driving conditions and pad types. Lighter setup? Doubt that, why should this matter for a non-track driver? Ease of changing pads? Doubt that a normal GT driver would do that many pad changes for a street car.

C) Caliper testing is one of the last things to test. Why? At this point if you haven't achieved your brake performance by now, then you are asking too much in general for the setup you have done. The only time when you really need to change a caliper is when you need to relocate it to fit with a properly sized rotor. If it's not for that reason, then there are definitely other restrictions of personal preference (to look cooler or make the brake pedal FEEL "better" [all subjective]) or race rules to follow. Caliper sizing and caliper types are targeting to 5 major marketable areas and they would be: purpose, clamping force (brake bias and piston sizing), pad flexibility, weight difference, and lastly appeal (driver feedback and looks). Anything more than that is really irrelevant or more BS.

D) just to toss this in to the track thing. Not all race classes I drive in allow larger brake kits or even larger rims and tires. Thus, it's common sense to keep the car as stock as possible per the stock class rules. If Subaru wanted to offer Brembo 4-piston brakes for the GT as a standard equipment, what you end up selling?? Neither you or I would have this conversation because it already comes with the car (see my point "A" if you missed it, i can still change rotor finishes and pad types and tires to fit the race rules). If you are saying that the GT shouldn't belong anywhere on the race track, you may want to tell Subaru that in general because there are guys out there that are racing the cars even on stock brake setups for showroom-class racing. I'll even take it down a notch everyday autocrossers who all they need are just upgraded pads like Hawk HPS or HP+ at most (a simple $200 upgrade) and they can still use their stock rotors. Again, not everyone needs to run larger calipers and rotors, and when it comes to racing, reading the rule book of what you are allowed run is more important than finding the biggest brake kit you can get and finding out that it's not allowed in your class.

Let's even forget the fact of the rotor size. What gain are you targeting for owners to go from a 2 piston, perfectly working caliper for street use to a 4-piston fixed caliper?

But if you are to compare to rotors, wouldnt it be more cost effective to just get 2-piece rotors that work with the OEM caliper like DBA 5000 rotors? Rather than spending $1000+, a person could just spend $500 to $600 on rotors and still be happy for daily driving? Isn't having a 2-piece rotor already overkill for daily driving anyways? This just goes all the way back to "what's wrong with a normal stock GT for daily driving?" If people are complaining about the car due to the lack of performance, it's logical to sell performance parts. If you are selling this kit to people that aren't craving performance, then who are you selling this kit to when a typical owner can just get a few pads and rotors here and there and spend half of what you are selling as a kit at this price?

As in terms of YOUR marketing line, you said that you are selling this kit for street use only. I'm basing this off your words unless you are saying I shouldn't go by your words. My point is the OEM brakes are track worthy, my question to you (again) "is your kit worthy for the track?". From your postings, you are saying it's "street use only" and I'll take that as a "No".

The reason for your limited sucess in selling pads with the stock brake setup is that you havent clarify to what your buyers are running on tires or even discuss about other viable options. Brakes aren't the only variable when it comes to BRAKING. Suspension geometry, alignments, tires, air pressure, weight of the car, road conditions and especially driver knowledge all go along way well before what rotors and calipers are even needed for an upgrade, especially for street use, and for my case to make it stronger, track use.

Just because one person doesnt own a Subaru doesnt mean they don't know brakes of one, so there's no need to discredit Magnetic1. From car enthusiast, to racer, to even vendor, there are plenty of car owners who could care less that it takes a 17mm wrench to take off their stock caliper carrier brackets on a GT or my favorite don't even know when is the last time they check their tire pressures and have come to me or Magnetic1 saying that their braking performance and suspension performance is "sub par".

I do not have any gripe or malicious acts for your thread, but I'm here to simply state my points that based on my comparisons from the OEM setup with a few minor changes, your kit is not, if any, an upgrade for the amount you are asking for on your kit.

My issue is that you keep saying this product isn't better than stock, when you don't know, because you have never tested it. These calipers were designed for rally use, where excellent stopping power was needed, but also the ability to fit the smaller 15" and 16" rally style wheel/tire combos, as well as keep the dust and dirt out.

That makes them a good match for street application using stock sized wheels.

You can replace the pads on these in a few minutes, literally, on non-booted calipers disassembly and rebuilding of the pistons takes a lot longer and most people don’t want to mess with that.

If mass was the only part of the equation then solid rotors would outperform vented, and we both know that’s not the case, cooling is a big part of that. These are directional vane rotors, Subaru uses straight vane rotors because they are cheaper to produce and unidirectional. Directional vanes provide better cooling because they pass more air; otherwise our turbos would have straight vanes!

Rotor metallurgy: I completely disagree. The OEM is looking to save money. There is a difference between long carbon iron and the cast iron that Subaru uses. Just as a high carbon ceramic compound rotor would be superior to just about anything on the market, but then we’d really be talking $$$

And having said that, I have yet to see a booted brake system that has survived the amount of heat I have put my GT through braking.

 

Out of the 80,000 miles including all the track and autocross miles, I've only had to build the OEM pistons once (which is about due for the 2nd time soon).

Now I'm confused, which is it?

You say one thing about booted, yet you are using the stock booted caliper?

The stock caliper applies pressure from only one side and the pads themselves can stick with in the caliper. We've seen this (Did I mention we see thousands of Subaru's a year) fairly often. Also, the rotors rust very easily, which can lead to uneven wear, and later vibration and warpage. It’s not uncommon to have to turn rotors even on cars with only 10,000 miles. These are even on customers who don’t exceed the speed limit or drive and brake hard.

Replacement pads are $65 and for street use you should be able to get 20,000-30,000 miles on them.

Outside of the initial cost, upkeep is relatively inexpensive. The pads are about the same if not less then most aftermarket. The rotors do not need to be turned down every time you replace pads, generally third set of pads.

It is unfair of you to claim that this set-up is inferior or no better than stock when the bottom line is you have no experience with this setup.

D) just to toss this in to the track thing. Not all race classes I drive in allow larger brake kits or even larger rims and tires. Thus, it's common sense to keep the car as stock as possible per the stock class rules. If Subaru wanted to offer Brembo 4-piston brakes for the GT as a standard equipment, what you end up selling?? Neither you or I would have this conversation because it already comes with the car (see my point "A" if you missed it, i can still change rotor finishes and pad types and tires to fit the race rules). If you are saying that the GT shouldn't belong anywhere on the race track, you may want to tell Subaru that in general because there are guys out there that are racing the cars even on stock brake setups for showroom-class racing. I'll even take it down a notch everyday autocrossers who all they need are just upgraded pads like Hawk HPS or HP+ at most (a simple $200 upgrade) and they can still use their stock rotors. Again, not everyone needs to run larger calipers and rotors, and when it comes to racing, reading the rule book of what you are allowed run is more important than finding the biggest brake kit you can get and finding out that it's not allowed in your class.

 

When did I say anything about the GT not belonging on the track?

I stated this was a "stock sized" set-up for street and some track use, that was the target audience.

What I said was, most LGT owners do not track their cars.

Are you a friend of the guy who is also selling a stock sized but non-booted Wilwood kit?

How come you are not attacking his thread for selling stock sized equipment you claim is not better than stock, even though you have no experience with them?

Also, the rotors rust very easily, which can lead to uneven wear, and later vibration and warpage....

 

It is unfair of you to claim that this set-up is inferior or no better than stock when the bottom line is you have no experience with this setup.[/size][/font]

I was going to post a big long educational post, but deleted.

Call up Wilwood. Speak to an engineer there and ask them what size car the DynaPro is designed for. They will likely say they are for lightweight sprint cars well below 3000 lbs. Not to mention, that almost all off the shelf DynaPro kits on the market are for small cars (Honda, MINI, etc) or for rear applications. Are you saying that ALL those kits are vastly oversized for their respective vehicles and the R&D there is wrong?

Booted setups have been debated. As you know, Wilwood uses stainless steel pistons which are far superior to the OE setup and do not require the kind of protection and maintenance as a OE booted setup. And for those who might track (yes, surprise, LGT owners do), a non-booted setup is far superior. It isnt hard to melt boots at the track, no matter what rotor you run. Why limit yourself?

The kit Im selling uses stock sized rotors. But there is a choice in rotors. You can do OE straight vane if you dont see the track much (as you are saying), you can opt for DBA4000s which have a better vane design, or in the near future, we too will have 2pc directional rotors. You can use the cheap OE-type rotors if you wanna treat them as consumables. It is designed for flexibility and options. You can choose whatever rotor you want, whatever pad you want (From hawk to Wilwood to PFC to Carbotech).

I throw up my white flag. You win. You seem to be an expert here, so neither myself, or anyone else should ever doubt your information. Obviously you have tons of experience on the street, track and high-stress application with the OE setup to know it is FAIL. That is why you came up with this setup. Kudos for the R&D, now get supporting vendor status, sell your product and support this board.

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/graemlins/surrender.gif

I was going to post a big long educational post, but deleted.

 

Call up Wilwood. Speak to an engineer there and ask them what size car the DynaPro is designed for. They will likely say they are for lightweight sprint cars well below 3000 lbs. Not to mention, that almost all off the shelf DynaPro kits on the market are for small cars (Honda, MINI, etc) or for rear applications. Are you saying that ALL those kits are vastly oversized for their respective vehicles and the R&D there is wrong?

 

Booted setups have been debated. As you know, Wilwood uses stainless steel pistons which are far superior to the OE setup and do not require the kind of protection and maintenance as a OE booted setup. And for those who might track (yes, surprise, LGT owners do), a non-booted setup is far superior. It isnt hard to melt boots at the track, no matter what rotor you run. Why limit yourself?

 

The kit Im selling uses stock sized rotors. But there is a choice in rotors. You can do OE straight vane if you dont see the track much (as you are saying), you can opt for DBA4000s which have a better vane design, or in the near future, we too will have 2pc directional rotors. You can use the cheap OE-type rotors if you wanna treat them as consumables. It is designed for flexibility and options. You can choose whatever rotor you want, whatever pad you want (From hawk to Wilwood to PFC to Carbotech).

 

I throw up my white flag. You win. You seem to be an expert here, so neither myself, or anyone else should ever doubt your information. Obviously you have tons of experience on the street, track and high-stress application with the OE setup to know it is FAIL. That is why you came up with this setup. Kudos for the R&D, now get supporting vendor status, sell your product and support this board.

 

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/graemlins/surrender.gif

I never claimed to be an expert, I never targeted track racers, but I do have a lot of experience with Subaru's and their quirks. He was the expert with 80,000 miles on stock calipers. By his claims, your set-up is a waste of money as well, which it is not.

The booted/non-booted is a matter of preference. High heat stainless, which do let in dust over time, or booted which help keep things clean.

I wasn’t targeting all the track racers out there; we have a two piece rotor superlite six pot for that.

Why would I support a board that has this kind of response to a product it's never tested?

I have an idea what you were thinking when you 1st found this thread..

“Oh sh*t this brake set-up is similar to mine, with the booted calipers people have asked about and for a lower price including 2pc directional rotors.”

I noticed you dropped your price from the original $1299 to $1099 shortly after I posted.

I don’t care that you dropped your price, I feel railroaded because you hijacked this thread to try to redirect attention to your product.

I could go on your thread and post, “Hey, if you want your brakes with in the week, with the booted calipers many of you have mentioned and 2pc directional rotors and all the hardware, we have them ready to go!”

But I did not, I respect that you support our cars. But your input and at times misinformation (only one pad available, etc.) are rude and not welcome.

I was going to post a big long educational post, but deleted.

Call up Wilwood. Speak to an engineer there and ask them what size car the DynaPro is designed for. They will likely say they are for lightweight sprint cars well below 3000 lbs. Not to mention, that almost all off the shelf DynaPro kits on the market are for small cars (Honda, MINI, etc) or for rear applications. Are you saying that ALL those kits are vastly oversized for their respective vehicles and the R&D there is wrong?

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/graemlins/surrender.gif

They will likely... again you're speculating.

The DynaPro, which is also available non-booted has now replaced the Dynalite, check your info.

BTW: A Mini may look small, but the S weighs roughly 2800.

traskx, sorry if I came off the wrong way. Lets take a step back here.

When you originally posted this, I assumed (wrongly) that you were looking to put something together to try to sell. I did not know you had already gotten the development done. Therefore, I was trying to offer you, and still will, a solution as a dealer.

Things started going downhill when certain details were presented. You, being a street guy obviously have different views and set-points than me. Naturally, we butted heads.

Lets move on.

Our kits are priced at 1299 retail. The introductory price of 1099 was never targeted towards your information or kit. It was to generate excitement and to give those who have been patient and waiting with us while we did development a chance at "dibs".

Again, lets try to take a step back and move on. My offer from my original post still stands. If you ever decide you want a separate option for a kit, please let me know. Id be happy to have you on board as a vendor.

Regards,

Eric

traskx, sorry if I came off the wrong way. Lets take a step back here.

 

When you originally posted this, I assumed (wrongly) that you were looking to put something together to try to sell. I did not know you had already gotten the development done. Therefore, I was trying to offer you, and still will, a solution as a dealer.

 

Things started going downhill when certain details were presented. You, being a street guy obviously have different views and set-points than me. Naturally, we butted heads.

 

Lets move on.

 

Our kits are priced at 1299 retail. The introductory price of 1099 was never targeted towards your information or kit. It was to generate excitement and to give those who have been patient and waiting with us while we did development a chance at "dibs".

 

Again, lets try to take a step back and move on. My offer from my original post still stands. If you ever decide you want a separate option for a kit, please let me know. Id be happy to have you on board as a vendor.

 

Regards,

Eric

Agreed. I also know, despite Xenonk insistence on the 2 pot being the better route, that your kit it better than stock and a very good value.

Xenonk, it seems your biggest complaint is cost. Let’s compare cost of ownership:

Let’s assume three pad set changes

I’ve referenced tirerack for pricing, but I’ve seen others higher:

Using Factory 2 Pots:

Hawk Pads: $101 = $303 + shipping

Slotted one piece rotors: $262 + shipping

Both Turned Twice $80-$100

Stainless Lines $164 + shipping

Performance Brake Fluid $12-$14

That’s $821-$843 + shipping

And you still have the stock 2 pot calipers.

This Kit:

Wilwood DynaPro four piston booted calipers

Wilwood radial mount brackets

Wilwood GT 12.2" directional slotted rotors

Wilwood forged aluminum rotor hats

BP10 pads

Stainless steel hose kit

Wilwood 570 Brake fluid - (12oz)

$1099 included shipping

Replacement pads are $65 so add $130 for the next two sets and $40 for rotors turned.

The more pads you go through, the closer the cost gets.

And if you have to pay for labor, the stock pad set-up requires partial removal of the caliper to change pads.

Replacement rotors are $180 for both vs $300 for the typical aftermarket, so overtime you save there as well.

Now the Wilwood is really starting to pay for itself.

And, you get 4 Pot billet aluminum calipers, billet aluminum hats, and lower unsprung weight.

(Eshh.. Here comes the unsprung weight battle)