Wagons and wider rubber

I ran a track day at Gingerman in SW Michigan and found 215/45R-17 to be far less tire than I really need out there. Just shredded the Proxes 4's I had on there (and yes, I'll be running much better rubber out there next time as well), so I'm going to be using 235/40R-17 or 245/40R-17 (I've seen the sizing for the 235/40 and 245/40 similar on some.) I just need to know if either/both will fit decently (I noticed that per one tire type going from 215/45R-17 to 245/40R-17, diameter was similar, but you gain 1.4" in width.) I will be running a 17x8" wheel as required for most 235 and 245 tires.

 

I know about sizes and stuff, but I need to know before I order if anyone has had much of any problems with running either 235/40R-17 or 245/40R-17 rubber on 17x8" wheels w/ +48 offset like the Rota Torque and Boost wheels. I want to get them ASAP so the more input the better.

 

It will be my track and street tire setup for the summer, so I'm looking at something that will get me through one season. Rubber ideas include:

*#1 option so far* -Hancook Ventus R-S2

-Kumho Ecsta MX

-Falken Azenis RT-615

-Pirelli PZero Corsa ®

-Toyo RA-1 ®

-Yokohama A032R ®

-BFG KDW 2

 

That's just ideas so far.

I think the best idea is not to skimp on the rubber and get the best tires out there. And none you hvae listed are top knotch.

I just need to know if either/both will fit decently (I noticed that per one tire type going from 215/45R-17 to 245/40R-17, diameter was similar, but you gain 1.4" in width.)

Check tirerack.com for +1 and +2 tire sizing. That's the info your looking for.

I think the best idea is not to skimp on the rubber and get the best tires out there. And none you hvae listed are top knotch.

 

You don't have ANY real track experience do you. His list is comprised of some of the best Street/Track tires available. If you think running Michelin Pilot Sports are a better way to go, then you haven't run a high dollar tire at road course and cried afterwards because You damn near ruined them and took 2 years off there street life.

 

 

The hankooks look promising. The old Azenis were ok at gingerman for me, just a little on the greasy side once warmed. My friend ran teh MX's and they held up better through the day. The newer azenis are supposed to be better with prolonged sessions but took a big jump in price. The KDW II don't have near as much grip as either but would be better in mileage. The Toyo and Yoko's you listed simply rock on the track and suck on the street. Super stiff sidewalls make them harsh and short tread life are big downfalls for everyday use.

 

I'm personally going with 235/40/18 MX's on a 18x7.5. Its more of a street size, but it will work for track days. I won't push it like I did in my econobox.

 

 

How did the event go BTW? I had to work all weekend and my brother crapped out because it was snowing here (about an hour north of the track)

If you want to get them soon then cross the RT-615s off the list as they aren't available in 235/40 17 yet and I haven't seen anything saying that 245/40 17s will ever be available. Of those tires your best choice (especially in terms of bang for the buck) are probably the 245/40 17 MXs as you can get them for about $130 each and they're a pretty damn good tire. I'm strongly considering that setup for my car, but the prospect of 255/40 17 RT-615s is very intriguing but I think it will be a tough fit.

I had MXs on my WRX wagon. No track days. Liked 'em and they were very good value. I might get another set for the GT wagon.

 

 

Tom

I think the best idea is not to skimp on the rubber and get the best tires out there. And none you hvae listed are top knotch.

 

Well my question is what do you call a top-notch tire available in that size, how much are you willing to spend per tire, $200-300? What if a $120-150 tire does 9/10 of what this premium tire you note but fail to mention to back up your point? This is a mix of street with about 5-6 AutoX's and one or two more high-speed AutoX's or tracking days of about 50-100 miles each. Maybe that much race time. I can find the tires that will work well for me, I was just mentioning some ones I'm looking at. The ones listed are ones I saw that are at least somewhat reasonable (why go through $1,000 in tires in a month when I can go through $400 in a summer, it's just logical, I'm not made of money even though I want something decent.)

 

I am a little sharp, just a long day, but seriously, if you say something, back it up, and think about others even if you're uber fortunate. Not that I can't afford really premium tires, it's just not a sound decision IMO unless I'm making much more than I am and am a MUCH more competetive racer. I just do it for fun, not to be truly competitive.

 

Mostly I just want to know what people have been able to stuff into wagon wheel wells and with what suspensions. I'll likely be running the Bilstein/Pink suspension setup for reference of where I'm going to be going with this setup. The ECSTA MX and Hankook are the top picks thus far.

Sube555, do you have pics and can you give me the current setup that you are running? The pics can certainly tell me if you can run wider and such. I'll ask Endlesshine as he had a set of Black Racing Rims (17x8 at +48mm offset) and I think he ran some pretty wide tires as well (245/40/17 that came off from his WRX sedan). He didnt lower is wagon, but it drove just fine without rubbing.. I'll talk to him later to find out what tires he has on his black racing rims.

 

 

Keefe

http://ronsever.com/wrx/on_dyno.jpg this is EndlessShine's car with the Black Racing rims in bronze.. and I made a mistake, he's running a set of 17x7.5" rims, not 8.

 

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=597897&highlight=endless

 

Dont worry, I'll find out what you can fit under there.

 

Keefe

From the looks of it, it seems that you might fall into a victim as the same destiny as the WRX wagon of not being able to fit wider tires on the car. Just from the pics right now (looking at endlesshine's car) with:

 

17"x7.5" +48mm offset

225/45/17 Kumho MX

 

The tires look very flush with the rear fender.

http://ronsever.com/wrx/legacy001.JPG

http://ronsever.com/wrx/legacy006.JPG

http://ronsever.com/wrx/legacy008.JPG

 

My speculation is that if you get a 8" rim with +51mm offset, you maybe able to get a 245/40/17 tire on there (since it's not as tall as a 225/45/17).. if you are going to lower the car, you will HAVE TO ROLL THE FENDERS A LOT to get them to fit and not rub on the sidewall from the suspension travel. If you are running stock suspension, you should be ok with the 245/40/17 with 8" rim at +51mm offset as it will sit SUPER FLUSH with the fender.

 

Keefe

I run 225/45/17 Rota downshifts (17x8) with BFG g-force sports at the track and they were more than competent at 7/10s. I even got comments from instructors about how well-behaved my wagon was at speed. I chose that wheel/tire combo based on bang for the buck - we're talking just a bit over a grand for everything - and for wanting to use them for daily drivers too. However if I had it to do over again I'd go with some lighter rims and BFG KDW2's (my original 1st choice). The g-force sports are also quieter and more comfy than the KDWs, but I found them still too harsh for commuting. In my perfect world I'll have a set just for the track that I haul there in the back. I've got plenty of room

Right now I am running stock suspension. Within the next month and a half I'm likely to be running on the Bilstein dampers with STi Pinks and coorelating top hats. It appears the Leggy may have similar issues with tire width as the Impreza does, therefore it might just be smart to scale back to 225/45R-17 or more my choice of an 18" combo (225/40R-18) with something pretty summer-like.

 

Under the revised thinking, it would be these options:

18x7.5 +48 Tarmac II

http://www.subydude.com/images/prod/products/Wheels/200/200/rt18Tarmac250048Bronze_01.jpgBronze

http://www.subydude.com/images/prod/products/Wheels/200/200/rt18Tarmac250048SG_01.jpgSteel Grey

 

18x8 +48 Rota Formula Mesh

http://www.subydude.com/images/prod/products/Wheels/rota/formulamesh/200/200/18x8Formulamesh_steelgrey_01.jpgSteel Grey

http://www.subydude.com/images/prod/products/Wheels/rota/formulamesh/200/200/18x8Formulamesh_gold_01.jpgGold

 

And 225/40R-18 rubber like:

http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/kumho/ku_ecsta_mx_ci2_l.jpgKumho ECSTA MX ($157 TireRack)

http://www.discounttire.com/product/tires/hanhz6.ang.jpgHankook Ventus RS-2 Z212 ($136 EdgeRacing - said to be competitor to Azenis)

225/40/18 and 225/45/17 are wide enough of a tire for track use (as I used both for track use and there were plenty of rubber to use).

 

If you are going to think of Kumho MX, also think about a set of Falken Azenis (new or old, similar pricing at $104 for the RT-215, and $147 for the new RT-615s).

 

You can get some Dunlops R-Compounds (Super Sport Race) tires for $119 for 225/45/17.

 

Stick with the 225 wide with a 8" wide wheel with the highest offset you can get. You should be fine as I personally dont even see a need to run 245s or even 255s anymore.. the geometry of the suspension just doesnt seem to make use of it (the temps across the tire were not even and the inside shoulder were only warm.. and this is with -2.0 camber).

 

Keefe

I forgot, Dan at MachV fitted my 255/35/18 Toyo T1-S on his Wagon as well (with a 18x8 +51mm offset SSR GT7H rim). No inside spring perch or outer edge fender rubbing from assumed geometry travel.

 

You can ask him about that fitment in particular if you need to know more info.

 

Keefe

Well according to the specs that Subaru lists the Legacy GT Sedan and Wagon are the same width and have the same track. That plus the fact that Dan was able to fit a 255 width tire on his wagon makes me think that the wagon doesn't give up anything to the sedan in terms of tire "capacity".

The 225/40/18 MX's were 112$ apiece 2 days ago. The week before they were 108$. I'm working on getting that size for the 112$ mounted on some 18.7.5 Kosei K1TS. I'll let you know if it works out and I'll let you know about driveability for daily. Michigan Roads suck right now, so my daily commute should be sufficient for worst case. LOL

Ok guys, I just got back from the MachV meet and looked at Dan's car.. the 225/40/18 on his 18x8 mesh wheels are stretched. A 245/35/18 street tire will work on a Wagon, but very close to rubbing, so it's best off to take off that rubber weather stripping to gain that 5mm of clearance.

 

My final answer:

Wagons can hold up to a 245 wide tire on an 8" wide rim with a very high offset of +45 and up.. please double check your tires as some are built wider than others. A set of Toyo T1-S at 245/35/18 will work on a wagon without rubbing issues even when lowered. A 245/40/17 with a 8" rim with +45mm offset and up will work as well.

 

Keefe

I have 245 kuhmo's on my wagon and virtualy all of the issue is in the front, and largely due to 48mm offset, and oversized diamiter tires.

 

Nice thing is not only can you roll the front fenders but its possible to do a subtle flare as you can pull the fender out some right where the tire will hit w/o any imperfections in the surface. Just do it before the tire catches the inner fender lip and folds it down as that will screw up the fender surface.

Just a little input on the MX's. They were the disposable tire of choice on my Cobra Replica (sold it to buy a new house:eek: ). Supprisingly good traction for the money and I didn't feel too bad when they would spontaniously go up in smoke:cool: . Quieter than S-03's and similar traction (I've run both on my FXT, soon to become an LGT wagon).

 

My .02

 

Raptor 347

I think I would still like to go for a 18x8, but run a 225 wide tire.

 

I like the 18 Tarmac II, which I think comes in an 18x8.

 

Should fit my wagon.

Hey Guys, i have a Wagon with 245/35/18's with Prodrive Pff-7s 18x8 +51mm offset...the side walls are straight up and down and no rubbing issues. do note i am running coilovers...

 

pictures can be Found Here!!

 

Enjoy!!

 

Oh, and on my next set of tires i'll probably run a 255/35/18...

Hey Guys, i have a Wagon with 245/35/18's with Prodrive Pff-7s 18x8 +51mm offset...the side walls are straight up and down and no rubbing issues. do note i am running coilovers...

 

pictures can be Found Here!!

 

Enjoy!!

 

Oh, and on my next set of tires i'll probably run a 255/35/18...

 

Did you pull off the weather stripping around the wheel wells for the 245's or anticipate doing that witht eh 255's? Would you anticipate your 245's rubbing with the stock suspension, i.e., before installing your coilovers?

 

If I go up in rim size, I'm sure I'll want to go with a wider sectioned tire but want to do that with minimal impact in case I don't get the STI or other coilover system in advance.

 

SBT

no weather stripping pulled off.

 

I cant speculate on the stock suspension with 245's...i did the suspension first so i've been with the coilovers way before the rims...My wagon isn't "dropped" by any means...i have a little over an 1" gap in the front and about 1.25" in the rear...

 

I've been underneath the car enough times to know with the coilovers, a 255 tire would fit just fine...

 

I also just did a business trip to SF (i live in HB) with about 500+ lbs in the back of my wagon and no rubbing issues especially driving in SF!!

I just sold my 17" Rotas w/ BFG g-force Sports to get some 18" rims and better rubber. Thanks to Dan at Prodrive for talking me out of another set of Rotas and into the PFF-7s! For tires I'm going with Dunlop Super Sport Race - can't beat the price. I went with 225 width though, because at least with that tire the 235 or above width doesn't look like a good match for an 8" rim.

 

After I wear out the Dunlops (shouldn't take long!), I'll look into wider tires - SnoDork's wagon looks sweet. Looking at the HKS coilovers myself.

just to add...with the PFF-7's and the 245 Toyo's the side walls on the tires are LITERALLY straight up and down, no stretching, not to wide....quite perfect...and that was what i was afraid of with a narrower tire.

 

i cant stand tires that are stretched out over a rim...

 

Thanks hotrodwagon for the props!!