tax return is here, looking to upgrade suspension. suggestions needed

Yes, I have read the stickies, just looking for some advice from people who have used these products. I'm torn between kyb agx's or tokico/koni inserts (I have h&r springs already). I also could get some used Coilovers, but the more I spend, the less likely I am of getting wheels also. This will be for my 99gt wagon which is my dd and occasional spirited driving/autocross. I had agxs on my turbo leg and I did really like them, I just want to know if the inserts are worth the extra money. Ideally I would like to get coils but I'm not going to buy godspeed or raceland. If I can find some reasonably priced bc/isc/etc. I would definitely jump on it though

Thanks guys

Personally, I love Koni's. The adjustable dampening is ridiculously awesome! At the softest setting, the ride is pretty much stock (well, on my 04 Accord 6-6) but has a much more solid feel during any weight transitions. At the firmest setting it's about as stiff as go kart with no suspension, and as stiff as I've ever felt any coilovers.

 

I'd go with those if you're willing to do the work. Adjustable Tokico's are about the same, really. But, I like Koni more. I would go with Koni>Tokico>>>>>>AGX's honestly.

 

*shrugs*

does anybody have any experience with the ST coilovers? They are made by KW which is a very reputable brand and this is their "budget" coilover to compete with BC, etc. I am strongly considering getting these as well as the group N top hats. I've spent hours on nasioc reading reviews and such and getting mixed feelings on the ISCs and the BCs. Everyone says that the STs are way better. They don't have dampening adjustment, but they are based off of the KW V1 which has actual engineering put into it. I trust an engineers understanding of suspension more than my own lol. If anybody has tried these out I would love to hear from you. Thanks for the reply Kenny, if I find a reason not to go with the STs I will certainly look into that route as well

Any updates on your suspension setup? I am looking to do suspension on our BK GT as well this spring/summer.

 

Personally, I love Koni's. The adjustable dampening is ridiculously awesome! At the softest setting, the ride is pretty much stock (well, on my 04 Accord 6-6) but has a much more solid feel during any weight transitions. At the firmest setting it's about as stiff as go kart with no suspension, and as stiff as I've ever felt any coilovers.

 

I'd go with those if you're willing to do the work. Adjustable Tokico's are about the same, really. But, I like Koni more. I would go with Koni>Tokico>>>>>>AGX's honestly.

 

*shrugs*

 

The adjustable dampening sounds great, but then I saw what a fussy, messy install inserts would be:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1219607

 

What about fully built Koni shocks?

http://www.emnotek.com/p-3904-subaru-koni-sport-adjustable-shocks-struts.aspx

Koni does not make any full strut.

 

Get a set of adjustable Tokiko's. That's what I'd do to my Subie to be honest. I believe they make a full spring/strut kit for the WRX that will bolt right up.

im on racelands, they're super stiff but they do the job.

Anyone have experience with Ground Control? Available with Koni inserts.

http://www.ground-control-store.com/.../category.php/CA=205

I have Koni yellows and Neuspeed race springs in my Honda. I love the setup. You won't find AGX's or bolt in Koni yellows for the Subaru. If you like coils, I suggest looking into Raceland coilovers. They cost no more than $500.

 

Hi Kenny that quote was taken from this thread http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/springs-struts-217024.html?t=217024, but I am researching suspension setups now. I'm confused - Aren't full KYB AGX '02-'03 WRX struts indeed available? http://www.rallysportdirect.com/KYB-AGX-Adjustable-Strut-Front-Right-Subaru-WRX-2002-2003

 

 

P/Ns for AGXes

 

733010 - Right Rear

733011 - Left Rear

734006 - Right Front

734007 - Left Front

 

2x the price of the Excel-G, but 4x worth it

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/second-gen-aftermarket-parts-and-upgrade-guide-superceded-147261p37.html

Hi Kenny that quote was taken from this thread http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/springs-struts-217024.html?t=217024, but I am researching suspension setups now. I'm confused - Aren't full KYB AGX '02-'03 WRX struts indeed available? http://www.rallysportdirect.com/KYB-AGX-Adjustable-Strut-Front-Right-Subaru-WRX-2002-2003

 

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/second-gen-aftermarket-parts-and-upgrade-guide-superceded-147261p37.html

 

Yeah, I remember that discussion. I remember saying that because I couldn't find a listing for AGX's on KYB's own site at that time. I never looked anywhere else, didn't think it was worth the time. But yes, it turned out that they do make AGX's for Subie's.

 

I'd go with D-Specs with these:

 

http://lightningmotorsports.com/i-526781.aspx?gclid=CMXfoZ3el70CFWXl7AodbDIAYQ

Yeah, I remember that discussion. I remember saying that because I couldn't find a listing for AGX's on KYB's own site at that time. I never looked anywhere else, didn't think it was worth the time. But yes, it turned out that they do make AGX's for Subie's.

 

I'd go with D-Specs with these:

 

http://lightningmotorsports.com/i-526781.aspx?gclid=CMXfoZ3el70CFWXl7AodbDIAYQ

 

Seems like the Tokico D-Specs would be a great way to dial in the desired firmness like Koni's, but with less hassle to install.

If I had a Subaru still, and didn't want coils or a used STi suspension, the Tokico's are exactly what I'd buy. They are the easiest to install and the spring/strut combo are made to work with each other.

From http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4331926&postcount=7

 

I am setting ALL of the details straight, here and now....

 

 

Subaru Legacy rear suspension info:

 

1) All 95-99 L and GT models BOTH sedan and wagon, use the same rear struts.

 

*SNIP*

 

Subaru Impreza WRX rear suspension info:

 

1) There are MANY differences in the WRX rear struts between sedan and wagon.

 

*SNIP*

 

6) ALL 02/03 WRX have rear springs with a lower diameter of 150 mm.

 

7) ALL 04-07 WRX have rear springs with a lower diameter of 150 mm.

 

8) So, 02/03 springs have to be paired with 02/03 struts.

 

9) 04-07 springs have to be paired with 04-07 struts.

 

Are 6) and 7) above supposed to say exactly the same diameter?

 

 

10) The BIGGEST difference sedan and wagon is the camber between the struts.... Sedans have more camber and sedans have less.

 

SO, WRX WAGON struts are CLOSER in design to the second gen Legacy struts than WRX sedan struts are... Anyone who says pair WRX sedan to Legacy sedan and WRX wagon to Legacy wagon is a complete MORON. ALWAYS try and pair WRX wagon struts to ALL second gen Legacy's. Just make sure that you keep the years paired between spring and strut. 04-07 WRX wagon struts are the best. They are closest in camber and have the highest spring rate of all the WRX models.

 

^^^OK This is finally lodged in my brain lol.

 

Okay, so the PHYSICAL MOUNTING DIFFERENCE between WRX sedan struts and WRX wagon struts is something to do with the mounting ears at the bottom of the struts, right? Does this mean that the SEDAN factory strut mounting ears are longer (to account for the wider track of the sedan), or that the ears are the same length but the bolt mounting holes are spaced closer to the edge than those on the wagon's factory strut? Or does it just depend on the manufacturer which approach they take? I think my Google-fu has helped me:

from http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/309670-post62.html

Any 02-07 WRX strut will work with Koni Inserts. The front WRX wagon struts have a narrower hub clevis as shown in this picture below.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f63/jimmybikerider/WRX%20tech/comparison.jpg

This link has some useful info on the D-Specs on a WRX Wagon:

http://www.wrxtuners.com/forums/f53/d-specs-wagon-30548/

Aside from the issue of camber adjustment range, is there a another suspension geometry issue to take into account when using WRX sedan struts on a Legacy? Considering that the strut and spring would be placed further inboard on the suspension, does this significantly affect damping and spring rate?

Are 6) and 7) above supposed to say exactly the same diameter?

 

Yes. ALL 02-07 WRX rear springs have the same lower diameter. That's why they any year (02-07) rear spring can be used with any year (02-07) rear strut.

 

Now, the top of the spring is a different matter. 02-03 has an upper diameter of 150mm and 04-07 has an upper diameter of 125mm. This is why the 02-03 springs have to be matched with 02-03 strut mounts (top hats) and 04-07 springs have to be matched with 04-07 strut mounts.

 

Remember, these numbers only concern the REAR OE type assemblies.

 

 

^^^OK This is finally lodged in my brain lol.

 

Okay, so the PHYSICAL MOUNTING DIFFERENCE between WRX sedan struts and WRX wagon struts is something to do with the mounting ears at the bottom of the struts, right? Does this mean that the SEDAN factory strut mounting ears are longer (to account for the wider track of the sedan), or that the ears are the same length but the bolt mounting holes are spaced closer to the edge than those on the wagon's factory strut? Or does it just depend on the manufacturer which approach they take? I think my Google-fu has helped me:

from http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/309670-post62.html

 

Think about the geometry of the suspension like a triangle. The strut/spring assembly is the longest side of the triangle. Now, the bottom length of the triangle is different between the sedan and wagon. Why? The sedan has a wider tack than the wagon does. The difference between the struts for each comes from the ANGLE at which the strut mounts to the hub assembly in order to keep the camber of each specific car the same.

 

Off the top of my head there are only two things that I cannot remember, but I will find the specifics in my notes later and update this thread with the specifics. The first thing, I cannot remember if the "ears" at the bottom of the sedan strut extend outwards farther from the strut body to help account for the wider track. Second, I cannot remember if there is any difference in the actually length of the strut body.

 

---

 

Now, if you do go with the "sedan designed" Tokico D-Spec's you can properly adjust for camber using camber bolts like I stated in the other thread. This will allow the person aligning the suspension to place the hub at specifically the correct angle to the strut body.

 

 

Aside from the issue of camber adjustment range, is there a another suspension geometry issue to take into account when using WRX sedan struts on a Legacy? Considering that the strut and spring would be placed further inboard on the suspension, does this significantly affect damping and spring rate?

 

Also, as I stated in the other thread, you can use adjustable/offset camber/caster correction strut mounts as well as caster correction control arm mounts. Using these parts, as well as camber bolts, will allow full adjustment of the front suspension in order for it to be 100%. This not only will account for the natural camber of the strut but the geometry changes from LOWERING the car as well.

Yes. ALL 02-07 WRX rear springs have the same lower diameter. That's why they any year (02-07) rear spring can be used with any year (02-07) rear strut.

 

Thank you for clarifying, I was concerned there may have been a typo because I would have expected it to be written "ALL 02-07 WRX have rear springs with a lower diameter of 150 mm" if they were all the same measurement.

 

Now, the top of the spring is a different matter. 02-03 has an upper diameter of 150mm and 04-07 has an upper diameter of 125mm. This is why the 02-03 springs have to be matched with 02-03 strut mounts (top hats) and 04-07 springs have to be matched with 04-07 strut mounts.

 

Remember, these numbers only concern the REAR OE type assemblies.

And I see now this is why you distinguished 02-03 from 04-07.

 

Think about the geometry of the suspension like a triangle. The strut/spring assembly is the longest side of the triangle. Now, the bottom length of the triangle is different between the sedan and wagon. Why? The sedan has a wider tack than the wagon does. The difference between the struts for each comes from the ANGLE at which the strut mounts to the hub assembly in order to keep the camber of each specific car the same.

 

Yes, I believe I am understanding this, thank you for this visual.

 

Off the top of my head there are only two things that I cannot remember, but I will find the specifics in my notes later and update this thread with the specifics. The first thing, I cannot remember if the "ears" at the bottom of the sedan strut extend outwards farther from the strut body to help account for the wider track. Second, I cannot remember if there is any difference in the actually length of the strut body.

 

Now, if you do go with the "sedan designed" Tokico D-Spec's you can properly adjust for camber using camber bolts like I stated in the other thread. This will allow the person aligning the suspension to place the hub at specifically the correct angle to the strut body.

 

Also, as I stated in the other thread, you can use adjustable/offset camber/caster correction strut mounts as well as caster correction control arm mounts. Using these parts, as well as camber bolts, will allow full adjustment of the front suspension in order for it to be 100%. This not only will account for the natural camber of the strut but the geometry changes from LOWERING the car as well.

 

As for I or others considering to go with WRX Sedan-specific D-Specs on our Legacies that favor WRX Wagon struts... as long as the camber can be dialed in correctly and we don't have to be concerned with having to enlarge the bolt holes on the strut mounting ears in order to mount them, I will continue to seriously consider this upgrade.

 

This D-Spec on a Legacy setup has probably been tried already, but should we be concerned about any possible interference in the space between the strut/spring assembly and the inside of the fender well, due to the bottom of the strut being mounted further inboard than a stock Legacy strut? (I don't mean the space between the strut and the fender, but rather the space between the strut and the engine compartment should be decreased slightly). And correspondingly (though this won't apply in my case) would it enable the fitment of a slightly wider wheel/tire combo or expanded offset range than would be possible with a stock Legacy strut? The spring perches should be closer to the inside of the car than stock legacy struts, by a small amount (probably mere mm's).

Thank you for clarifying, I was concerned there may have been a typo because I would have expected it to be written "ALL 02-07 WRX have rear springs with a lower diameter of 150 mm" if they were all the same measurement.

 

 

And I see now this is why you distinguished 02-03 from 04-07.

 

Exactly! There's a reason for my madness.

 

As for I or others considering to go with WRX Sedan-specific D-Specs on our Legacies that favor WRX Wagon struts... as long as the camber can be dialed in correctly and we don't have to be concerned with having to enlarge the bolt holes on the strut mounting ears in order to mount them, I will continue to seriously consider this upgrade.

 

There should be no reason for any modifications at all. No one has ever reported the need to alter the strut in any way in order to install on any 2G Legacy. The ONLY time you would need to alter the strut, is when installing 05+ WRX STi struts... They are different. Any 02-07 WRX and any '04 STi strut will mate with the Legacy hub assembly with no issue whatsoever.

 

should we be concerned about any possible interference in the space between the strut/spring assembly and the inside of the fender well, due to the bottom of the strut being mounted further inboard than a stock Legacy strut? (I don't mean the space between the strut and the fender, but rather the space between the strut and the engine compartment should be decreased slightly). And correspondingly (though this won't apply in my case) would it enable the fitment of a slightly wider wheel/tire combo or expanded offset range than would be possible with a stock Legacy strut? The spring perches should be closer to the inside of the car than stock legacy struts, by a small amount (probably mere mm's).

 

There will be no clearance issues whatsoever. The only thing you need to be concerned with is suspension geometry, and not only at a lowered stand-still height, but what the geometry will be as the suspension moves up and down...

 

As far as wheel fitment, if only for their thinner-than-stock size, you should be able to fit wider wheels/tires.

 

That being said, I do not think that strut body itself will be psychically more inward than the stock one.. It just doesn't make sense. It's only at a different angle, but those angle are altered to correct positions when proper parts are used and aligned. So, it should be in the same position as stock, only at a slightly different angle when lowered.

There will be no clearance issues whatsoever. The only thing you need to be concerned with is suspension geometry, and not only at a lowered stand-still height, but what the geometry will be as the suspension moves up and down...

 

As far as wheel fitment, if only for their thinner-than-stock size, you should be able to fit wider wheels/tires.

 

That being said, I do not think that strut body itself will be psychically more inward than the stock one.. It just doesn't make sense. It's only at a different angle, but those angle are altered to correct positions when proper parts are used and aligned. So, it should be in the same position as stock, only at a slightly different angle when lowered.

 

Thanks Kenny I appreciate your explanation! Here is a crappy diagram I drew up that kind of shows the picture in my head. It may or may not be representative of the actual condition of the labeled suspension arrangements. The differences are a little easier to see with Photoshop's background grid turned on. The center diagram is slightly wider than the others to represent the wider track of the WRX Sedan. It is kind of hard to see the difference, but you may notice the strut mounting ears on the sedan struts stick out a little further to make up the difference in track width.

 

Not to scale. lol

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/camroncamera/SuspensionDiagram_Subaru_WRX_Wagon_6_zpsab2786cf.png

Bilstein FTW

 

EDIT: Oops I think I made the angle of the mounting knuckle the wrong way in the bottom diagram. It should angle the other way (inward at the top), indicating the increased positive camber.

 

EDIT #2: Fixed the camber on bottom diagram.

you guys should start a suspension geometery thread with the info from like... post 12 down

Yeah I didn't mean to hijack sti_044's thread.

I just keep losing this one cuz i forget its under this title, lol

I cannot emphasize it enough - my diagram could be totally wrong. It's just to see if the picture in my head correlates to reality.

I'll post with my reply a bit later today.

Is the camber of the wheel/tire determined by the relationship of the bottom of the strut fastened to hub/knuckle part? My crappy diagram on the bottom shows the hub with a little positive camber but the wheel at 0 camber. They probably should be matched.

 

I think Zues is right, we should move this discussion to a new thread or hop onto one of the suspension stickies.

 

To get back on topic for the OP: I currently 100% stock suspension but I am seriously considering a Ground Control coil conversion over Tokico D-Specs or Koni Inserts. I need to limit the amount of lowering to clear my driveway ramp:

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/camroncamera/IMG_9570_zps3b77ad10.jpg

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/camroncamera/IMG_9567_zps13fd4449.jpg

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/camroncamera/IMG_9569_zpsbc1ec8b1.jpg

my god your driveway would total my car!