Steering Wheel Off Center ???

[color=black][font=Arial][size=2]I got my LGT 3 weeks ago. [/size][/font] [font=Arial][size=2]Since then [/size][/font][/color][color=black][font=Arial][size=2]I have noticed that the car pulls towards the left when the steering wheel is in the center position. [/size][/font][/color][font=Arial][size=2][color=black]The service rep. says the steering wheel cannot be adjusted but a 4-wheel alignment will fix the problem. They do not have a 4-wheel alignment machine. So, yesterday they sent my car out for an alignment. I was given the AFTER alignment specification sheet (no BEFORE). The alignment technician [b][u]circled[/u][/b] the TOE adjustment for the back-right wheel. The AFTER TOE adjustments are:[/color][/size][/font] [font=Arial][size=2][b][color=black]· [/color][/b][color=black]Front-Left .02[/color][b][color=black]°[/color][/b][/size][/font] [font=Arial][size=2][color=black]· [/color][color=black]Front-Right .01°[/color][/size][/font] [font=Arial][size=2][color=black]· [/color][color=black]Back-Left .07[/color][color=black]°[/color][/size][/font] [font=Arial][size=2][color=black]· [/color][color=black]Back-Right .45[/color][color=black]° [/color][/size][/font][font=Arial][size=2][color=black]It’s obvious that to correct the steering wheel problem (center position - car pulls left) the TOE on the B[/color][color=black]ack-Right wheel (.45°) was adjusted to cause the car to pull to the right. So, the center position of the steering wheel (pulls car left) is now fixed by making the back-right wheel pull the car towards the right causing the car to go straight. [/color][/size][/font][color=black][font=Arial][size=2][color=black]Can the steering wheel be adjusted when it’s off center? [/color][/size][/font][/color][font=Arial][size=2][color=black]What do you think about the above fix to the problem? [/color][/size][/font][font=Arial][size=2][color=black]What should I do to correct this problem? [/color][/size][/font][color=black][font=Arial][size=1]I'm willing to pay another Subaru dealership with a 4-wheel alignment machine to fix this problem. What should I ask them to do?[/size][/font][/color]

It's all done in the toe adjustments. It's actually a pain in the butt to center the wheel perfectly when doing alignments because any small jolt can push the steering wheel off-center while you're working on it. But any shop that specializes in 4-wheel alignments should stand behind their work and do it right. And that's exactly what you need -- a complete 4-wheel alignment.

it's not a pain in the butt as I do my own toe alignment at home. My GT also had the same problem when i drove it off the lot where the wheel pointed to the left when the car is driving straight.. so I just adjusted the tie rods for the steering rack just a few turns (shorten the left, lengthen the right) until the steering wheel is straight again.. I also adjusted so that I had zero toe in the front... whatever the tech was talking about on rear toe, you can't adjust anything in the rear of the GT.. there might be a [I]tiny[/I] bit of play on the nuts and bolts that hold the lateral links, but the lateral links are not adjustable. PM me and I'll tell you how to do toe alignments at home in a jiffy using 2 90 degree 2x4s and a good measuring tape. Ever since I learned how to make alignment tools at home and picking up pit-crew/race engineer techniques, my car will never go back to an alignment shop again (unless the body/frame was bent). Keefe

Lean to the right....j/k. :lol: You've had it 3 wks and you just come to us now. What is wrong with you man!!!! :p

Keefe, you must have mastered your technique a little better than me. I've done my own 4-wheel alignment 3 times so far with home-made tools, but I've never been very satisfied with the results. The biggest problem seemed to be centering the steering wheel like I mentioned above while still keeping accurate settings at all 4 corners. Maybe he'll have better luck. P.S. There must be a way to make small adjustments to the rear toe on the Legacy... it seems like there's always some means for doing that. Otherwise he has a real problem with the rear toe settings the way they are now.

nah, it's just some play in the bolts and stuff.. it's less than 1/2 degree.. usually you'll be able to find that in the tolerances of the bolts holding down the lateral links on the right. As for centering your steering wheel, it's not hard to do.. you just need to make smaller increments of turns on the tie rods to get the wheel to stay centered.. did you mark off your tie-rods to know when you made a full turn on them? Assuming you have your toe-adjustment to your liking: If your steering wheel is pointed to the left while the car is going straight, what you want to do is shorten the right tie rod and lengthen the left tie rod in equal lengths so that you dont mess up your toe alignment [vice versa if the steering wheel is pointed to the right]. I usually turn the tie-rods in 1/2 turn and locking it down, go for a test drive, and see if the wheel is straight or not, and I'll do this until the wheel is straight. I usually get it right by the 2nd or 3rd time. Keefe

This is interesting. Here is Oz where we drive on the other side of the read, we have the opposite problem - the wheel is slightly to the right when driving straight ahead on a level road. I wonder if their's a purpose to all this.

[quote name='Xenonk']nah, it's just some play in the bolts and stuff.. it's less than 1/2 degree.. usually you'll be able to find that in the tolerances of the bolts holding down the lateral links on the right. As for centering your steering wheel, it's not hard to do.. you just need to make smaller increments of turns on the tie rods to get the wheel to stay centered.. did you mark off your tie-rods to know when you made a full turn on them? Assuming you have your toe-adjustment to your liking: If your steering wheel is pointed to the left while the car is going straight, what you want to do is shorten the right tie rod and lengthen the left tie rod in equal lengths so that you dont mess up your toe alignment [vice versa if the steering wheel is pointed to the right]. I usually turn the tie-rods in 1/2 turn and locking it down, go for a test drive, and see if the wheel is straight or not, and I'll do this until the wheel is straight. I usually get it right by the 2nd or 3rd time. Keefe[/QUOTE]Good stuff, I guess once you get the alignment set this should work just fine to center the steering wheel. Thanks for the info.

[color=black][font=Verdana][size=2]Xenonk, thanks for the information. At this time I can’t do the toe alignment so I’ll get another Subaru dealer to do it. The new dealer has an excellent reputation for service.[/size][/font][/color] [size=2][color=black][font=Verdana]I’m going to undo the alignment done at Mr. 4wheel. At this point another 4-wheel alignment will be done then[/font][/color][color=black][font=Verdana] the steering wheel will be centered by adjusting the tie rods for the steering rack.[/font][/color][/size] [size=2] [/size] [color=black][font=Verdana][size=2]Is a toe alignment of 0.0 ideal for both the front and rear wheels?[/size][/font][/color] [size=2][color=black][font=Verdana]Why on front wheel drive cars is the front toe pointing inwards?[/font][/color][/size]

[quote name='miles'][size=2][color=black][font=Verdana]Why on front wheel drive cars is the front toe pointing inwards?[/font][/color][/size][/QUOTE]I can answer that one. In a FWD car, the factory settings for the rear wheels will always specify toe-in. The thing is, the suspension components will flex and the toe will dynamically change as you pick up speed. And since the rear wheels are not drive wheels, the only force will be drag & friction pulling the wheels back causing it to toe-out slightly. So toe-in is recommended simply to counter that effect. The basic idea is to optimize the orientation of the wheels at highway speed. The recommended front settings will differ depending on the car. Since the front wheels are the drive wheels, you've got forces in both directions that come into play. But usually something very near 0 toe will work fine in a FWD car. My FWD Hyundai feels the most stock-like with a little toe-in up front, but the stock specs actually recommend 0 toe which is strange. So basically, it varies. I don't know what's recommended for the Legacy though.

for driving daily, yes, zero toe front and rear is what you would want to have.. under braking the front will toe-in, giving you stability.. while upon acceleration, the car will toe-out to give you more of a better-turn-feel. but SWortham is pretty much on the dot on this one. For track events, I would run 1/16th toe-in, but for autocrossing, I run 3/32" Toe-out. For the street, I run 1/32 to 1/16th toe-out because I love the feeling of a faster and more responsive turn-in. Keefe

[size=1]To make my car grab the road better and feel more stable at high speeds (>80mph) what toe-in would you suggest for the front & rear wheels?[/size]

Toe the front IN to something like 1/16" to 3/32".. anything more than that will eat up your tires dramatically. As for the rear, just ask for Zero toe, you dont want to mess iwth the rear since toe adjustments in the rear are more pronounced in performance than the front.. with all the braking and acclerating done, you want the rear tires to track as neutral as possible for a street car. It also helps out on exiting corners under load and helps stablility in braking for the rear to be a zero for everyday driving. If you make any more changes than 3/32" of an inch in difference for the track, expect to replace your tires VERY SOON from toe-wear. Keefe

[size=2][size=2]Xenonk, thanks for the info.[/size] [size=2]I'm going to have the toe set to:[/size] [list] [*][size=2]Front toe-in 1/16"[/size] [*][size=2]Rear Zero[/size] [/list][/size]

So is this how I should interpret all this? One has to sacrifice fast/more responsive turn-in in order to remove the "looseness feel" that many of us are experiencing when driving straight at reasonable speed on normal roads by setting front toe-in to < 0? Actually, I've got the hang of the car on straight freeways and don't mind it anymore. It forces me to concentrate even more on the steering to keep the car steady in a lane, which is probably a good thing. [quote name='Xenonk']For the street, I run 1/32 to 1/16th toe-out because I love the feeling of a faster and more responsive turn-in. Keefe[/QUOTE]

you are correct, can't have the best of both worlds. Same goes for everything on car modding: "something has got to give". Lots of camber is great for mid-cornering, but when it comes to braking, you'll sacrifice some distance (usually anything over 2.5 degrees of camber will result some deteriation in braking power). Caster is a helpful process as well as you turn in into a corner, you'll gain more camber, but again, this will add to some possible problems in handling if the driver doesnt know how to correct understeer. Even difference in power mods is true.. A bigger turbo housing will give you more lag, but top end power is awesome. Or another case is having close gear sets (faster acceleration with less drop of rpms per gear) or short final drive in a tranny vs. a large final drive (higher top speeds). So for toe-in, you'll get more stability (in the dry) but you'll lose the initial turn-in feel and grip. As for toe-in in the rain, the car will have a better tendency to bite harder in the rain and will want to oversteer a bit. Toe-out in the rain will make it understeer like crazy, especially when you panic to instinctly dial in more steering when the wheels are already turned in. Keefe

Thanks for the explanation Xenonk. Perhaps one day we'll get speed sensitive toe-in/camber/etc, just like we do now for steering ratio. Oh, might as well though in rain sensitive too. No doubt one day it will happen - pobably not in my life time. [quote name='Xenonk']So for toe-in, you'll get more stability (in the dry) but you'll lose the initial turn-in feel and grip. As for toe-in in the rain, the car will have a better tendency to bite harder in the rain and will want to oversteer a bit. Toe-out in the rain will make it understeer like crazy, especially when you panic to instinctly dial in more steering when the wheels are already turned in. Keefe[/QUOTE]

Not fond of the speed sensitive steering (it goes by the rpms really and the steering pump just pumps more fluid through to help turn the gears). What I REALLY want is this on my car (I had one on the WRX being two turns lock to lock, yes, you heard me, 2 full turns). [url]www.rev-lab.com[/url] World's best mod, EVER! Keefe

Of course. Only BMW have gone to the next level and have speed sensitive steering ratios. Not sure if I like that but I do think my idea of speed sensitive front wheel adjustments would be neat. But I wouldn't be surprised if BMW have already done this, at least for a prototype. [quote name='Xenonk']Not fond of the speed sensitive steering (it goes by the rpms really and the steering pump just pumps more fluid through to help turn the gears). What I REALLY want is this on my car (I had one on the WRX being two turns lock to lock, yes, you heard me, 2 full turns). [url]www.rev-lab.com[/url] World's best mod, EVER! Keefe[/QUOTE]

[color=black][font=Verdana][size=2][i]Update[/i] [/size][/font][/color][color=black][font=Verdana]Original dealer “Gatineau Subaru” [/font][/color][font=Verdana]sent me to Mr. 4Wheel for my 1st alignment. [/font][color=black][font=Verdana]Westboro Subaru did the 2nd alignment. They [/font][/color][font=Verdana]have a 4-wheel alignment machine. The alignment specs. for Mr. 4Wheel’s AFTER did not match Westboro’s BEFORE (not even close). [/font][font=Verdana]------------------------------ Mr. 4Wheel’s AFTER TOE settings (degrees): [/font][size=1][font=Courier New]Front-Left.... 0.02[b]°[/b][/font][/size] [size=1][size=1][font=Courier New]Front-Right.. -0.01[b]°[/b][/font] [/size][/size][font=Courier New][size=1]Rear-Left..... 0.07°[/size][/font] [font=Courier New][size=1][font=Courier][font=Courier New]Rear-Right.... [b]0.45°[/b] [/font][/font][/size][/font][font=Courier New][size=1][font=Verdana][color=black][font=Verdana] [/font][/color][/font][/size][/font][font=Courier New][size=1][font=Verdana][color=black][font=Verdana][font=Verdana][b]-----------------------------[/b] [/font][/font][/color][/font][/size][/font][font=Verdana]Westboro Subaru’s BEFORE TOE settings (inches):[/font] [font=Verdana][font=Courier New][size=1]Front-Left.... [b]1.6"[/b] [/size][/font] [size=1][size=1][font=Courier New]Front-Right.. -0.9[b]"[/b][/font] [/size][/size][font=Courier New][size=1]Rear-Left..... 0.9[b]"[/b] [/size][/font] [font=Courier New][size=1][font=Courier][font=Courier New]Rear-Right.... [b]2.2"[/b] [size=1]I got through many ice & snow storms with the above screwed-up alignment. [/size] [/font][/font][/size][/font][/font][font=Courier New][size=1][font=Verdana]--------------------------- [/font][font=Verdana]Westboro Subaru’s AFTER TOE settings (inches): [font=Courier New][size=1]Front-Left.... 0.0[b]"[/b] [/size][/font] [size=1][size=1][font=Courier New]Front-Right... 0.0[b]"[/b][/font] [/size][/size][font=Courier New][size=1]Rear-Left..... 0.0[b]"[/b] [/size][/font] [font=Courier New][size=1][font=Courier][font=Courier New]Rear-Right.... 0.0[b]"[/b] [/font][/font][/size][/font][/font][/size][/font][font=Verdana]At Westboro Subaru:[/font] [list] [*][font=Verdana]Technician found loose specialty bolts in the rear suspension[/font] [*][font=Verdana]TOE for all 4 wheels was off[/font] [*][font=Verdana][font=Verdana]Front-left & Rear-right wheels were out of spec. ([color=black]-1.5 to 1.5)[/color][/font][/font] [*][font=Verdana]Not one wheel had the TOE set to 0.0 (Subaru’s recommended TOE)[/font] [*][left][font=Verdana]They adjusted the steering wheel properly[/font][/left] [/list][left][font=Verdana][color=black][font=Verdana]Now my car’s handling is excellent at both low & high speeds. At high speeds the car feels very stable. Also, at low & high speeds the steering wheel is much firmer in the center position.[/left] [/font][/color][/font][font=Verdana][color=black][font=Verdana]Westboro Subaru has gained a customer for life. [/font][/color][/font] Would you report the 1st screwed-up alignment to Subaru[size=2]? [/size]

wow, that's some really off numbers! 1.6 - 0.9 = .7" toe out!!! That's crazy! And it's even worse in the rear!!! Keefe

Yup current issue, had that in mine too. Went to Bridgestone and found the fronts pulling to the right and the rears to the left, effectively i was dragging the car down the road. Car was fixed and has been running great ever since. Adam.

Just picked up my Legacy this weekend, and wouldn't you know it, my car pulls to the left when the steering wheel is at the 12 o'clock position. Low speed steering also feels really sloppy. The car is going in for service today and hopefully this issue will be resolved after a 4-wheel alignment.

I finally found some time to take my car in and thought I would post an update: Toe Settings (all measurements are in degrees) BEFORE (these were set from the factory) Left front: -0.08 Right front: -0.19 Left rear: -0.05 Right rear: -0.04 AFTER (Subaru dealership alignment) Left front: 0.01 Right front: 0.01 Left rear: 0.00 Right rear: 0.00 Left rear camber was also out of spec, but corrected. It's suprising that a brand new car has alignment problems. I hope the factory addresses this issue.

Is there a marked difference in steering, in particular at straight line freeway speeds?