Opensource VS AP

Ok, so first of all, I have been searching and have not found a thread like this one. The most I've found are people scratching the surface. If there is one out there, then I apologize and this can be removed.

 

So my question is:

 

Why would a person go with an opensource tune over AP or the other way around? What are the advantages/disadvantages of an opensource tune? What are the advantaged/disadvantages of the AP (using ots maps or protune maps)?

 

I am just wondering what people think out there. I see many people using the AP and I am wondering why? I also see people seeing to go opensource. So I am just wondering what people think.

 

Now, a note before any bashing begins, I am relatively new to this community so please don't tell me to just search. I am only looking for what people think, what they use and why they chose to go that route. In fact, I have an opensource tune already and chose to go that route because of cost and not needing multiple maps at my disposal.

 

So what are people using and why did they choose that route?

chose to go that route because of cost and not needing multiple maps at my disposal.

 

So what are people using and why did they choose that route?

 

 

and cause it's better than ots maps...

 

<<<awdtuning ftw

 

you do get all those fancy features from an access port tho...ya know the ones that are rarely anywhere near accurate

 

I was once new and had no clue and picked up an access port back when I had my 05. I thought I would utilize the function of map switching.. it never came in useful....

<<<awdtuning ftw

 

This is a stupid question, but what does ftw mean? I haven't figured that one out yet.

 

But yeah I love my opensource tune and was very impressed with the numbers I got and the small amount it had cost. Best "mod" I have ever done with any car I've owned and I've barely scratched the surface with Subaru.

 

...Not to hijack my own thread.

Do you want to know what are good tools for doing tunes yourself? Doesn't sound like it--sounds like maybe you simply want someone to give you a tune. If that's the case, then a lot of professional tuners won't give you an open source map as they don't want you sharing it with the world, thus driving you to get something like the AP to install their map with.

 

No matter which way you go, you (or a knowledgeable friend/tuner) need to be able to log key parameters and check the tune to ensure it's safe. I would also purchase (or borrow) a wide-band O2 monitor as part of this logging and checking. Some may say the O2 part is overkill, but I think it's important.

 

There may be some "safe" OTS tunes that people would say you don't need to check, but I think it's a smart step to check any tune.

This is a stupid question, but what does ftw mean? I haven't figured that one out yet.

 

But yeah I love my opensource tune and was very impressed with the numbers I got and the small amount it had cost. Best "mod" I have ever done with any car I've owned and I've barely scratched the surface with Subaru.

 

...Not to hijack my own thread.

 

For The Win

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ftw

I went opensource because it cost about $160 for the 2.0 cable vs $700 for an AP. I already had several laptops around to use for this though. If you have to buy a laptop also, the costs will obviously be closer, but you don't need much of a laptop to tune with. An older P3 for $50-$100 will do fine.

 

As for the difference, as of now, you can't make real time changes with OS. That means if you want to make some changes, you'll need to edit your rom/map and then flash it to the ecu. The AP will allow you to load a base map, and then a realtime map on top of that. The AP will also read codes, though there are some softwares that can be bought/found that do the same with a laptop.

 

Logging is considerably better with RomRaider (opensource). There are a lot more parameters that can be logged and displayed on a digital dash than there are on the AP.

 

For ease of use, you can't beat the AP really. If you're a DIY type that wants to know how to tweak everything yourself, you can't beat OpenSource tuning.

Do you want to know what are good tools for doing tunes yourself? Doesn't sound like it--sounds like maybe you simply want someone to give you a tune. If that's the case, then a lot of professional tuners won't give you an open source map as they don't want you sharing it with the world, thus driving you to get something like the AP to install their map with.

 

If you read the bottom of post #1, I said I already have been tuned. I don't need anyone's maps. I think you need to re-read my question. I am simply asking what people use and why they chose that over the other. I am also wondering what the benefits are (in their opinion) in the way they went verus the other. I think you were trying to read a little too deep in what I was asking.

I went opensource because it cost about $160 for the 2.0 cable vs $700 for an AP. I already had several laptops around to use for this though. If you have to buy a laptop also, the costs will obviously be closer, but you don't need much of a laptop to tune with. An older P3 for $50-$100 will do fine.

 

As for the difference, as of now, you can't make real time changes with OS. That means if you want to make some changes, you'll need to edit your rom/map and then flash it to the ecu. The AP will allow you to load a base map, and then a realtime map on top of that. The AP will also read codes, though there are some softwares that can be bought/found that do the same with a laptop.

 

Logging is considerably better with RomRaider (opensource). There are a lot more parameters that can be logged and displayed on a digital dash than there are on the AP.

 

For ease of use, you can't beat the AP really. If you're a DIY type that wants to know how to tweak everything yourself, you can't beat OpenSource tuning.

 

Good info! You really hit on what I was trying to ask. I am just curious why people chose what they did. There is really no right or wrong answer to this. And from what I gather, there is not one that is better than the other. There are advantages to both. Just wondering what advantages caused a person to choose what they did.

I had a AP with a off the shelf map for stage 1 and 2. I thought everything was fine till I dataloged my car. My car was pulling alot of timing( The engine pulls timing when it detects knock.) I was so mad that I paid someone for that crapI figured I couldn't do any worst then the "protuners". So I sold my AP and got romraider. I hook up with "infamous1" and started road tuning. He got my stage2 with K&N typhoon and FMIC to hit 18.5 psi @ 2800rpms and 277whp on 91 octane pump gas. Then when I added my 20g w/EWG and supporting he eTuned my setup and now I'm hitting @20 psi @3300 rpms and making about 340whp on 91 pump gas. I will be honest the first time I flashed the car I was sweating. Now it's no big deal. Since I have romraider I check and scaling on my MAF. To ge my car to run it's best and to know when something is wrong. If you are going with the basic stage 1 and 2 then a AP will be fine. But if you go for more then theprice of the tunes alone for each upgrade will kill you. Opensource is free and vendors like infamous1 has eTune roms for $100 right now. Good Luck

similar thread:

 

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99881

 

If you have a local support or good e-support Opensource will definitely save you money. I've used opensource both my old WRX and now my LGT.

I went the OS route because it saved me about $1100 ($700 AP + $400 ST). I guess now it would only save me $700. Since I am tuning my car myself, I wasn't interested in Cobb's tuner network, but I was (still am) interested in RomRaider's forums.

 

The AP has come cool features but I really only need the basics.

RomRaider + EcuFlash + Tactrix = good enough.

Someone asked this on another board a couple days ago and as someone who tunes both I decided to answer. This was my basic rundown:

 

AP Pros from Cobb's site:

» Improve horsepower, torque, and fuel economy at the touch of a button

» Display vehicle data such as boost, RPM, temperatures and more while you drive

» Easy installation, no mechanical or computer skills necessary

» Connects to your vehicle via the OBD-II port conveniently located under your dash

» Exclusive ability to switch between different 'modes' on the fly

» Pre-calibrated to maximize performance of stock or modified vehicles

» Easy-to-read color display

» Update over the Internet to stay up-to-date with the latest features (software and firmware are updated automatically using Cobb's supplied software)

» Read engine trouble codes (DTC) yourself, eliminating trips to the dealership

» Not just an "ECU reflash" - AccessPORT features enhancements such as on-the-fly mode switching, data monitors, reading DTCs, performance monitors and more

 

Plus when having it custom tuned there are additional features in the software for some ECUs and for all Subarus it's real time tunable, cutting tuning time in half. If you pay for tuning by the hour, this cuts your tuning cost in half.

 

They're a big company with in house software development and quality control. Warm fuzzy feelings about warranties etc. are possible.

 

REAL TIME TUNING!

 

CONS: you have to pay for the accessport before your car can be tuned.

 

 

Open Source:

Pros:

You don't have to buy an accessport

Anyone with a tactrix cable and the software can do it. NOTE: This is also a BIG con depending on who you let mess with your car.

 

Cons:

Tuning takes twice as long. If paying by the hour, it will cost twice as much.

Anyone with a tactrix cable and the software can do it.

No warranty or technical support. No company standing behind the software. (They do try their best and do fix problems as they arise, like a company would, but in practice this doesn't always work out as well).

Have to add some features with patching of rom code and dig around forums to try and figure out things work since there's no tech support to call or automatic updating etc.

 

 

 

Personally I trust Cobb's software more than open source. I would absolutely go the AccessPORT plus ProTUNER route with a car of my own for piece of mind. That said, because I've given the open source guys a year or two on each new application and waited to see positive feedback for a good period of time before using it on a new model, nobody's ECU has fried or engine failed at my hands.

 

 

A pro for both is that nobody is locking your ECU. These flashes can be removed any time. With an AccessPORT you can do it yourself. With open source, anyone with a cable, laptop and software can do it. The same cannot be said for Ecutek. I have a large number of customers that want me to tune their cars, but they bought Ecutek at one time or another and now the tuner that put it on refuses to remove the Ecutek. Those customers have to buy another ECU just so somebody can tune their car OR put it back to stock. Beware of this hidden, but major issue with Ecutek tunes. Sure everyone likes repeat business, but an honest person prefers to earn it rather than putting Ecutek on someone's ECU so customers have to come back. That's not ethical in my opinion.

 

 

 

Here's what I mean by "real time tuning", which Cobb offers ProTUNER shops, and how that makes tuning take half the time.

 

While tuning with Cobb's ProTUNER software one of the many tables that gets tuned is the MAF calibration. It has tons of data points and you have to make lots of adjustments to get it just right so the fuel trims are in line etc. During the process I make dozens of changes to this one table. As I make the changes they take effect on the ECU immediately so I just keep tweaking until I get the desired end result. That's it!

 

 

With open source every time you want a change to take effect you have to do the following dance:

view realtime data and datalogs

make changes to tune file in another window or application

save file

close datalogging program to avoid port conflict (datalogger and ecu flash program fighting over the OBD2 cable)

turn off car

get under dash and connect green test connectors

open ECU flashing program

load file

turn key to on

start flashing ECU

wait for ECU to flash...

when done turn key off

close ecu flashing program

disconnect green test connectors under dash

turn key on and wait 5-7 seconds (DBW cars only)

start car

open datalogging/realtime data application

reload logging profile

resume testing

 

 

 

Now consider that during the course of a tune 20-80 TABLES full of data are adjusted! That's HUNDREDS of cells that get edited, many of them over and over.

As you can imagine....this adds a huge amount of time to the process!!!! http://www.toronto-subaru-club.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

To cut down on the time this takes you generally make more changes at once and perform larger/rougher edits to save time, but you can't do that with any function like timing advance where making big changes isn't safe.

 

 

Often you pay a tuner by the hour. Expect the time spent tuning open source to be about double what it would be with ProTUNER.

Innovative, that was good info. I didn't know all that about Cobb. Thanks!

I love opensource tuning!

If you read the bottom of post #1, I said I already have been tuned.

 

 

Oops, totally missed that line:rolleyes:. In that case...get both if you're willing to spend the dough (a friend suggested as he has it, and now that's what I have).

 

a) Open Source (Tactrix cable to connect, RomRaider to edit, ECUFlash to read an ECU and to flash): Quick and easy flashes, all the tweaks you want (e.g. like individual timing tweaks on each cylinder to get rid of most of the factory adv on cylind 2 & 4)...AP1 & ST doesn't do that, not sure if you can with AP2 and ST).

 

b) AP & Street Tuner: As Innovative explained so well, nice to use "Real Time" tuning/maps to tweak your tune quickly.

 

If you don't want to spend that much, than I think you can do what you need to with just open source.

Now consider that during the course of a tune 20-80 TABLES full of data are adjusted! That's HUNDREDS of cells that get edited, many of them over and over.

 

There's generally 5 to 8 tables (depending on your tuning methods)that would generally get modified during the tuning process. There's numerous other tables that should have been modified just prior to the initial flash.

 

1. Base timing OR Timing Advance(depending on your method, not generally both.)

2. WGD%

3. Target Boost

4. OL AFR

5. MAF Scaling, sometimes depending on the mods.

Yeah, that set off my bs-meter as well.

A thread over on RomRaider just reminded me of one of the other major reasons I chose open source - trust. If you can't view the tune, you have to trust the tuner absolutely. I have a hard time with that idea. There are a couple tuners in my area that I might trust, if I had to, but there's just been far too many cases of bad tunes killing motors. And the level of BS in this industry in general makes me uncomfortable (I'm not talking about the #-of-tables stuff above - that's of no real consequence). So in that light, my choices were:

 

1) Hand over $700 for an AP and $300-$500 to a tuner, and hope they can tune my car in an hour or three. And maybe be able to diagnose tune-related issues myself, or maybe have the information I need locked away, so I'd have nothing but trust to go on.

 

2) Buy books, read forums, ask questions, and tune the car myself over a period of weeks or months. Logging and monitoring all I want, and sharing that information freely if I have questions or concerns.

 

#2 won. And I always kinda wanted to understand motors better anyway.

A thread over on RomRaider just reminded me of one of the other major reasons I chose open source - trust. If you can't view the tune, you have to trust the tuner absolutely. I have a hard time with that idea. There are a couple tuners in my area that I might trust, if I had to, but there's just been far too many cases of bad tunes killing motors. And the level of BS in this industry in general makes me uncomfortable (I'm not talking about the #-of-tables stuff above - that's of no real consequence). So in that light, my choices were:

 

1) Hand over $700 for an AP and $300-$500 to a tuner, and hope they can tune my car in an hour or three. And maybe be able to diagnose tune-related issues myself, or maybe have the information I need locked away, so I'd have nothing but trust to go on.

 

2) Buy books, read forums, ask questions, and tune the car myself over a period of weeks or months. Logging and monitoring all I want, and sharing that information freely if I have questions or concerns.

 

#2 won. And I always kinda wanted to understand motors better anyway.

I've had AP v1 + OTS maps from cobb, TDC and TA tuners.. For a year or so.

Then I sold my AP, got $16 VAG cable, free OP Mickey'd modified st2 map, and after 3 month of learning, logging and editing with a great help form more experienced forum members, I have the tune I am quite happy with.

Much safer and stronger tune comparing to what I had with OTS maps.. I know it for sure, as I datalog OTS maps before I sold my AP.

There's generally 5 to 8 tables (depending on your tuning methods)that would generally get modified during the tuning process. There's numerous other tables that should have been modified just prior to the initial flash.

 

1. Base timing OR Timing Advance(depending on your method, not generally both.)

2. WGD%

3. Target Boost

4. OL AFR

5. MAF Scaling, sometimes depending on the mods.

 

Even if all a tuner does is edit the maps you've mentioned that's still hundreds of values being edited over and over unless they're lazy. It's still going to take twice as long without realtime tuning.

 

That said, I guess I'm just more thorough than whoever uses those tables alone. Here are SOME of the tables that get edited after my initial flash, during the tuning process of an 08 LGT. Some are modded on the initial flash, but require further tweaking depending on the setup. Some are base tables. Others are realtime tables. The ones a tuner needs to spend to spend the most time on are the ones Cobb makes realtime editable to maximize the time differential between having that realtime capability vs. open source.

 

 

AVCS A and B tables

Boost Target

Turbo Dynamics coarse gain high

Turbo Dynamics coarse gain low

Wastegate Duty High A

Wastegate Duty Low A

Fuel injector latency

tip in enrichment

primary fuel

Primary ignition (1 to 4 tables depending on ECU)

MAF Calibration

Rev limits

Boost limits

3 tables - WGDC post fuel cut

About 10 tables - Closed loop

About 10 tables - Warmup and Post start enrich

6 tables on SI Drive cars - Throttle duty cycles and requested torque

 

 

Some examples/explanation:

On a stock or stage 2 car my initial settings for warmup and post start do not need altered during tuning. On a car that's more modded, they often do.

 

On a totally stock car of a given year and model I have an AVCS map B that I use on all say stock 05 LGT manual tranny cars. However, most cars are modded so this gets tuned. AVCS A can be left alone on most stock cam setups, but needs tuned on some of those and all non stock cam setups.

 

The 08 STI mapping has more tables which I alter and future LGT ECUs will too.

 

 

 

NSFW: I know some have this twisted view that paying for something when you don't "have" to makes the paid product and anyone that endorses it shady or talking BS, but this is misguided.

 

First of all, I tune both...whichever the customer wants.

 

Second:The facts are the facts. It does currently take about twice as long to tune without realtime tuning and that's very significant.

 

Third of all, if you think the shops that tune these cars sell Accessports and tune with ProTUNER instead of open source tools do it solely to make more money...think again. The money they get paid for the extra tuning time it takes with open source far outweighs the profit margin on the AccessPORT. Not only that, shops had to pay thousands of dollars to buy the ProTUNER software.

 

In terms of your comments that you trust your own tuning more than a professional's...that's a sad state of affairs. Someone calling themself a professional tuner should be able to do a much better job than you, but I know that's not always the case. I know people that have had situations where a professional tuner totally screwed them and I can totally understand this concern. It's all about finding the right person. The same goes for mechanical work. Some people have had horrible experiences with shops, including myself with my Subarus before I had my shop. Actually it still happens to this day occasionally if I'm having a tranny rebuilt at a specialist or something of that nature, and it's an awful feeling. You have to be able to trust whoever is wrenching on or tuning your car. If you're not within driving distance of someone you can trust, tuning yourself becomes far more attractive. This is not Cobb/open source specific.

 

 

lepich: A good custom tune performed on the car will always be better than an OTS map from Cobb or any tuner. That is not software specific.

lepich: A good custom tune performed on the car will always be better than an OTS map from Cobb or any tuner. That is not software specific.

 

 

With a custom tune, the car is tuned specifically to your car with you exact mods. No two cars are exactly the same and won't run the same. With a custom tune, the tuner adjusts everything according your how your car runs. OTS maps are generic maps that are uber-conserative so that they will work with every car and most aftermarket products (as even those affect your car differently). A cobb intake and downpipe will give you different results than a SPT intake and invidia downpipe (for example). In fact you could have one 08 LGT with cobb intake/dp will and another 08 LGT with the same setup and it perform differently. The tuner will adjust everything in order to get the car to perform at it's peak and the tune might be slightly different for one car vs the other. Then you add in location. A car in Texas will need to be tuned differently than a car in Colorado because of elevation and temperature. You might not want to be as aggressive with the tune on the car in Texas because of the heat, whereas you could do a little more with the cooler temps in Colorado. The OTS maps, don't do that. They adjust the same values in the same way no matter what your car is, what is has on it or where it is.

 

This is why having a custom tune is FAR superior to the OTS maps. The tuner gets to make an adjustment and see exactly how the car responded and then make a further adjustment. OTS maps are set and aren't adjusted from car to car (if they are, you have just received a "custom tune") and thus they need to be more on the conservative side.

 

Hope what I just wrote makes sense.

NSFW: I know some have this twisted view that paying for something when you don't "have" to makes the paid product and anyone that endorses it shady or talking BS, but this is misguided.

 

I'm not one of those people. I run lots of software that I can't take a look at, but I trust the people/companies who make it. And I don't bet lots of money on it, so it's easier to trust them. But there are very few people in this industry whom I would trust enough to bet my engine on their work. I've seen evidence of stupid tunes (and at least one dead motor) from tuners who have big fan bases over at nasioc too; there isn't enough information available for me to make that trust decision. Especially considering that I don't need to.

 

Second:The facts are the facts. It does currently take about twice as long to tune without realtime tuning and that's very significant.

 

Third of all, if you think the shops that tune these cars sell Accessports and tune with ProTUNER instead of open source tools do it solely to make more money...think again. The money they get paid for the extra tuning time it takes with open source far outweighs the profit margin on the AccessPORT. Not only that, shops had to pay thousands of dollars to buy the ProTUNER software.

I don't doubt any of those claims. But as a person who logs on the road, and "tunes" (makes changes) at home, real-time tuning is of very little value to me. It might have sped up my MAF and injector calibration a but, but for the most part I have no desire to make changes until I've spent some time studying logs. I can certainly see the advantage of real-time tuning when the tuner and dyno owner are charging by the hour, it's just not something that interests me as a person tuning my own car.

 

In terms of your comments that you trust your own tuning more than a professional's...that's a sad state of affairs. Someone calling themself a professional tuner should be able to do a much better job than you, but I know that's not always the case. I know people that have had situations where a professional tuner totally screwed them and I can totally understand this concern. It's all about finding the right person. The same goes for mechanical work. Some people have had horrible experiences with shops, including myself with my Subarus before I had my shop. Actually it still happens to this day occasionally if I'm having a tranny rebuilt at a specialist or something of that nature, and it's an awful feeling. You have to be able to trust whoever is wrenching on or tuning your car. If you're not within driving distance of someone you can trust, tuning yourself becomes far more attractive. This is not Cobb/open source specific.

With open source I have the option of verifying the tuner's work. With Cobb I might be able to verify some of it via logging, but I've heard that even that can be disabled now. I realize that tuners are concerned with protecting their intellectual property, but as a customer I am not comfortable with the lack of transparency.

 

Of course I realize that since I'm taking the time to learn about tuning I'm in the minority, and that Cobb still has a large addressable market. More power to 'em. But I'm glad to have the open source option.

Even if all a tuner does is edit the maps you've mentioned that's still hundreds of values being edited over and over unless they're lazy. It's still going to take twice as long without realtime tuning.

 

 

Not arguing that there aren't hundreds of cells being edited however its not as if you editing each individual cell independently(at times yes, but generally no).

 

Any tuner worth their salt would have a very good idea of where timing, boost/wgd%, and fuel should be for any particular setup(other than some blow-thru setup or some other unorthodox/non-standard setup or some odd fuel type).

 

My opinion is you are making tuning sound overly complicated, its not rocket science. You just need to have thorough understanding of what each map does versus what it does for the engine's performance.

 

Road tuning a STG2-ish setup using Open source generally takes me 2hrs or less assuming the car is mechanically sound(ie; no boost leak, gasket leaks, etc). In that time we generally put 30miles or so on the car, and taking 3 to 5 revisions of the map before its where I want.

 

I have tuned using Cobb Streetuner, I'll admit the Realtime features were nice however a knowledgable tuner having well tested self developed base maps will cut tuning time down a great deal. Its not as if we(tuners) start out each tune with a 100% OEM map, that would be crazy inefficient of the customers time, unless you are charging by the hour:eek:.