November 2004 Consumer Reports Review

Legacy GT Lmt Vs: the Acura TSX, the Audi A4 and the Volvo S40. The Legacy came in a close third, while the Volvo drew up the rear...way down there. I thought it was a good review. Here was the reason it was rated lower than the other two: "The GT would have scored higher in our Ratings except for its unimpressive 18-mpg fuel economy and a tendency for the rear end to slide if a driver charges into a corner too quickly and suddenly lets up on the accelerator." (Does anyone actually get that bad of gas mileage???) They did like the engine and the "nicely finished interior", "Comfortable ride" also. The Legacy also scored a "quick pick" from Consumer Reports which is a big plus.

Depends on how hard you drive.. first gear at WOT get's 1 MPG according to the trip comp :) Of course, who's going to granny the GT around? I'd recommend another car in that case.

[quote name='frontrangeSubie'] "The GT would have scored higher in our Ratings except for its unimpressive 18-mpg fuel economy and a tendency for the rear end to slide if a driver charges into a corner too quickly and suddenly lets up on the accelerator."[/QUOTE] haha maybe they should learn a thing or two about performance driving.

Here is Consumer Reports Ratings on "Sporty Sedans" (in order of ratings) 1. Acura TL 2. BMW 330i 3. Volkswagen Passat GLX v-6 4. Lexus IS300 5. Honda Accort EX V6 6. Mercedes-Benz C32- 7. Lincoln LS V6 8. Acura TSX 9. Audi A4 1.8 10. Subaru Legacy GT Lim. 11. Audi A4 3.0 Quatro 12. Cadillac CTS 13. Nissan Maxima 3.5 SE 14. Nissan Altima 3.5 SE 15. Saab 9-3 16. Infiniti G35 17. Jaquar X-Type 3.0 18. Mazda6 V6 19. Volvo S40 2.4 20. Volvo S60 2.5 21. Pontiac Grand Prix GT

The VW is sportier than the A4 1.8 which is sportier than the LGT which is sportier than the A3 3.0? Also the Honda beats the Acura.. ermmm. I declare that list null and void.

[Quote]a tendency for the rear end to slide if a driver charges into a corner too quickly and suddenly lets up on the accelerator[/Quote]They drove the automatic version didn't they?

[quote name='Th3Franz']haha maybe they should learn a thing or two about performance driving.[/QUOTE] I disagree. It's a quality of sport-oriented Subarus. Many a WRXer put their car into the weeds thanks to lift-throttle oversteer, and 1st-year STis had that same tendency. If you know it's there, it's very easy to control. But if you don't know that it's there, or if, like 99.9% of the front-wheel-driving public, you learn to get out of the throttle right NOW when you get in trouble, that characteristic could bite you in the butt when you're at the limit. CR, I've heard, has good drivers run these cars through their paces. It's certainly a credit to the Legacy's close-to-neutral state of suspension tune, which we all like. It's just on the understeering side of neutral, which is pretty amazing. But at the limit, lift throttle oversteer is definitely there. It's one reason, I can only speculate, that the WRXes, for example, were reined in with smaller swaybars at the rear. Kevin

Why would anyone take the opinion of Consumer Reports seriously when it comes to cars? Afterall, they test and rate hair dryers, refrigerators and toasters. Lipstick, TVs, heaters, ad infinitum ad nauseum. A tendency for the rear end to slide if the driver lets off the gas in a turn? OH MY GOD!!! Better put a FWD car in first place! I don't know about you, but it's pretty hard to throttle steer unless the rear can step out. CR doesn't know a damn thing about cars. By the way axis008, what does an automatic transmission have to do with understeer or oversteer? NOTHING.

[quote name='STG']By the way axis008, what does an automatic transmission have to do with understeer or oversteer? NOTHING.[/Quote]The automatic Legacy GT has a power distribution of 45/55 front/rear, so it induces oversteer more easily than the manual Legacy GT which has a power distribution of 50/50. I wasn't bad mouthing the automatic, if you're assuming I was. I was just wondering if that's what they drove, giving them those results.

Just a quick thought for you guys when you are discussing “lift-throttle oversteer.” The automatic Legacy is less likely to oversteer due to the lifting-off the throttle because more power (and so more drag with no throttle) is going to the rear wheels. For the most part “lift-throttle oversteer” is as Kevin said, completely suspension related. Given a properly oriented suspension (roughly neutral), the reason this phenomena occurs is that you lift off the throttle and the FRONT wheels load up with drag due to the shift of weight forward, while the rear wheels lighten up, and the car rotates. It is actually easier to set-up a FWD car with this phenomena due to the fact that the “drag” from the engine is entirely directed through the front tires and the weight distribution is generally forward biased. The 50/50 AWD car is the next easiest, and last but not least, is the RWD car. To truly understand this, try driving a “good” compact FWD car like an old Integra Type-R. My Nissan SE-R is set-up this way so that I am neutral with even-power, I can understeer with too much power, (an LSD can only do so much with WWD) and I can bring the tail around by lifting off the throttle. This has also been mentioned by a few if you look around. You would be surprised what you can do with a properly set-up FWD. .. Ted I still like AWD and RWD better or I wouldn’t be purchasing a Legacy

lift-throttle oversteer is only caused by dynamic weight distribution. You can demonstrate it in any car, but especially ours, because you can put the power down to move most of the weight to the rear wheels, which means more weight is going to come down on the front and off the back when you let go. In a FWD/RWD car it would be much harder to unsettle that much weight. This is not a subaru thing.

[quote name='frontrangeSubie']...a tendency for the rear end to slide if a driver charges into a corner too quickly and suddenly lets up on the accelerator.[/QUOTE] Hillarious. I consider this a positive attribute. ;)

[quote name='STG']Why would anyone take the opinion of Consumer Reports seriously when it comes to cars? Afterall, they test and rate hair dryers, refrigerators and toasters. Lipstick, TVs, heaters, ad infinitum ad nauseum. A tendency for the rear end to slide if the driver lets off the gas in a turn? OH MY GOD!!! Better put a FWD car in first place! I don't know about you, but it's pretty hard to throttle steer unless the rear can step out. CR doesn't know a damn thing about cars. By the way axis008, what does an automatic transmission have to do with understeer or oversteer? NOTHING.[/QUOTE] Consumer Reports is, when it comes to cars (and everything else for that matter) as reliable, if not more so, than any other publication. Why? Right...Car & Driver gets a Legacy GT for review. They take it out, gas it up, make sure it's okay, and off to the test. If they're first in the nationwide reviewing chain, that's awesome. If they're somewhere in the middle...well, okay. But if they're at the end, that car is hammered. Newspaper auto journos get that a lot, being at the end of the food chain. CR, on the other hand, buys a car, just like you, me, or anyone else would. It's a real example, vs a possibly juiced tester, which has been known to happen. Also, CR doesn't take advertising which, I don't care what anyone tells you, can affect how a publication views a product. CR also does real-world testing. It's cool that magazines take some cars to the track, but really, how many people take their cars to the track? I would bet less than a tenth of a percent of the overall populace. Most people buy a car, drive it to work, go out for Sunday drives, or otherwise get the wind in their hair. CR's test is far more rigorous than anything the average consumer will put the car through. And CR rated the TSX more than the GT, just like that bastion of enthusiast hooliganism (and one of my favorite magazines, I might add) Car & Driver. What does that mean? That C&D is also worthless? Road & Track preferred the GT to the TSX, so those seeking affirmation can read that publication. What CR is saying about the tail coming out is "Hey, we simulated an emergency situation, and our drivers all had this thing happen, and in our context, we don't think that's cool." As far as the tail coming out, I never understand why people think that's cool. It can be fun to induce, and we've all done it, but it shouldn't be there unless the driver calls for it. I remember being a hotshot wannabe at Skip Barber, and asking "Why aren't more cars set up for neutral handling," and my instructor laughed and said "Trust me, you don't want a neutral car. WE don't even want neutral cars for driving around town." I've never forgotten that, and have always liked cars on the understeering side of neutral. The GT is slightly on the understeering side of neutral, which accounts for its fine handling. But that proximity to neutral is also what accounts for the characteristic that CR observed. Their observations are as valid as anyone else's, as except for the instrumented testing, EVERY auto magazine is subjective, rather than objective. Further still, Consumer Reports' tests are even MORE valid for the average driver (enthusiasts comprise a miniscule percentage of the motoring populace) than any other publication out there. That's why people read it, and pay attention to it. CR is like a Bible for many consumers, because their methodologies often ensure a high degree of probable statistical accuracy. They're as reliable for cars as they are for hair dryers, washing machines or VCRs. Finally, the GT doesn't have enough power to throttle steer in most conditions (excluding rain or snow, or exceedingly worn tires), which is why tail-out folks have to lift throttle to induce such behavior. My apologies for the length. Kevin

The tail coming out is just fun as you said, but I agree that the average driver shouldn't have that creep up upon them without them knowing. As for the car not having enough power to throttle steer...maybe I'm doing something wrong but I can get into this situation at will and often do.

[quote name='Deer Killer']lift-throttle oversteer is only caused by dynamic weight distribution. You can demonstrate it in any car, but especially ours, because you can put the power down to move most of the weight to the rear wheels, which means more weight is going to come down on the front and off the back when you let go. In a FWD/RWD car it would be much harder to unsettle that much weight. This is not a subaru thing.[/QUOTE] Actually, I didn't say it was a Subaru thing, I don't think anyone really did. This is going to be really long, but necessary. Yes it is "Dynamic weight distribution," but more than that, it is the combination of the [B]suspension set-up, the static weight distribution, the drivetrain lay-out of the car itself, and the dynamics of the action[/B]. I will assume LSDs for all vehicles below… [B]1. Suspension set-up:[/B] The more understeer the suspension is tuned for, the less likely lift-throttle oversteer (LTOS) will occur. This is because as the weight shifts forward due to immediate deceleration, the front wheels push instead of holding their line. When they push, the tail stays put and follows along. A more neutral suspension (not necessarily stiff, extremely stiff suspensions can actually have less LTOS vs. an equally neutral softer sprung car, but this will be discussed in the static weight section) allows the front tires to track and hold their line. When the deceleration occurs, the “weight” increases on the front tires creating a larger contact patch and greater ability to transfer force, (more friction) and the “weight” lessens on the rear tires reducing their contact patch and ability to transfer force. It takes at least a near-“neutral” suspension for this to occur, and it becomes really easy if you are on the oversteer side of neutral. (drivetrain independent) Also, the more the car is allowed to “dive” onto its front tires, the more weight can be transferred. [B]2. Static weight distribution:[/B] (Assume the near-neutral suspension from above) Given the above suspension discussion, a car with a low center of gravity (CG) that is set-up 10/90 (F/R) will be very hard to LTOS. The deceleration due to lifting off the throttle will only shift a small portion of the weight off the rear tires and onto the front. If you reverse that distribution, the rear tires will rarely have any grip and will always be loose in the corners. When the CG is higher, the moment is greater and more “weight” shifts forward during deceleration. This can be affected by the stiff vs. compliant suspension from above. Obviously most cars stay between 60/40 and 40/60, but the static weight distribution and CG can have an affect and cars with a front weight bias are more sensitive to LTOS. [B]3. Drivetrain lay-out:[/B] The drivetrain lay-out of the car itself (FWD, RWD, AWD, front-engine, mid-engine, rear-engine) has two ways which it can affect LTOS. First, it effects static weight distribution. A FWD front-engined car (> 75% of the cars on the road in the US) is more likely to have a front biased weight distribution. A RWD rear-engined car (Porsche) is more likely to have a rear biased weight distribution. The other combinations of lay-out can have anything in between with mid-engined cars easiest to make 50/50, especially mid-engined AWD. Second, the choice of drive wheels affects how the force is transferred to the ground. A FWD car transfers force through the front tires. If there is drag due to the engine, it only affects the front tires. Applying the same theory to AWD and RWD cars, it is easy to see why on equally weight-biased, equally suspended cars, a FWD is more likely to LTOS. This is not saying it can’t happen on the AWD and RWD, it obviously does, it just means that the FWD needs less help from suspension and static weight distribution to create LTOS. [B]4. Dynamics of the Action:[/B] As you are turning, given the neutral suspension and 50/50 weight distribution from above the load is even front to rear with no + or – acceleration. Because the CG of a car is not on the ground, if you accelerate, the dynamic load will shift to the rear of the car, increasing the contact patch of the rear tires and their ability to apply force. (Actually, if your suspension, tires, links, etc. were infinitely stiff, weight transfer could not occur and this whole discussion would be moot) The front of the car lightens and the car would want to understeer given high enough acceleration. When the car decelerates, the opposite trends occur, tending to oversteer the car. Now, applying all of this, the Legacy is a front-engined AWD car with a 56/44 (?) weight distribution and a near-neutral suspension with that is not too stiff. Applying all of the above, the only thing that LESSENS the Legacy’s LTOS is its AWD. This happens for two reasons. One, the differentials needed for AWD shift more weight to the rear. Two, the rear tires are providing drag also. Luckily, (for spirited drivers anyway) Subaru provided enough of criteria 1 and 2 for the dynamics to allow LTOS. This allows for quicker track times as long as you know it is there and how to use it. (Actually, I guess if you make no mistakes, you wouldn’t need it at all and the neutral suspension is perfect.) Hope this helps everyone understand a little better… Ted Oh yeah, also, in case you didn’t completely understand what was said above, a front-engined [B]FWD WILL LTOS EASIER THAN A RWD OR AWD [/B] with less suspension tuning. BUT, and this is the reason most think that FWD is so bad for performance, car manufacturers tune suspension for understeer from the factory. Because a FWD has a natural bias towards LTOS due to weight distribution and the drivetrain, FWD suspension is generally tuned softer from the factory than RWD or AWD suspension. Your everyday person driving a FWD car will have less chance of a wreck if they don’t spin out when they go too fast through a corner and lift-off the throttle. With a few generalizations, here is an example of the 50/50 neutral suspension car. A race car with FWD will go into a curve fast, hold even power, and hit the throttle at about the 80-90% point. If they are over their line they can use LTOS to pull them back in (rotate the tail), if they are under their line they apply throttle to push out. Steering input stays even. A race car with RWD will go into a curve fast, hold even power, and hit the throttle at about the 80-90% point. If they are over their line they apply large amounts of power or use LTOS to pull them back in (rotate the tail), if they are under their line they apply enough throttle to lighten the front wheels but not rotate the rear. Steering input stays even. A race car with AWD will go into a curve fast, hold even power, and hit the throttle at about the 60-80% point. If they are over their line they can use LTOS or heavy throttle input to pull them back in (rotate the tail), if they are under their line they apply throttle to push out. Steering input stays even, but you can use the front wheels to “pull” you to your exit point. As you can see from above, [B]GIVEN EQUAL SUSPENSION AND WIEGHT DISTRIBUTION, the AWD is the easiest to drive fast, next is actually FWD, and last is RWD [/B] because of the fine line you have to walk between power-on oversteer and power –on understeer. BUT, most factory FWD cars do terminally understeer. Again, try out a well-setup car in each of these categories and you will understand. Or, ask Paul or some of the others who might have done this. Or, go on believing RWD is the fastest way around a track no matter what…

Hey Ted, I agree with you - I also have a Sentra SE-R that's set up for racing, and when you get it nice and neutral it handles really well and it is easy to drive. I personally love hanging the tail out in a FWD car, it's a lot of fun.

Personally I think that the new sus. setup that allows the rear to slip has dramatically improved the handling that I used to get from my Impreza. I find that as mentioned I can corner more aggressively due to the knowledge that the car generally understeers a little less than before. Parousia

The problem is the suspension is too soft for a neutral car. Its just right for an understeering pig like most cars with a soft ride. But the legacy isnt set up to do that. Therein lies the problem with inexperienced drivers and it may be downright scary for experienced drivers. I took a left turn at an intersection at 50 mph in attempts to make a yellow light. (I know Stupid, but I was exhausted and hungry and i wanted to get home, sorry wasn't thinking.) I Let off the throttle and the rear started stepping out. Luckily I got back on the throttle mid apex and exited the turn at the top of 2nd gear around 60 mph. If I hadent had known this and just paniced and let off the throttle or even BRAKED mid apex I would have spun out. It is a legitamate concern for consumer reports becuse they are reviewing a car for an audiance whose first reaction is to brake hard when they are in trouble. When you lift throttle the suspension compresses too much this causes a violent transfer of weight to the front of the car unloading the rear. If the suspension were a bit stiffer it would be less prone to have a excessive degree of weight transfer and front end dive which inevitably unloads the rears. A stiffer suspension is unfortunately harsher on your bum but it will make the car more stable and predictable. I would like to stiffen the leggy suspension up a little bit I am eagerly awaiting some suspension options to become available for the car. I would definately like to get this done beofre adding more power. A 300+ WHP goal with the stock suspension is just asking for trouble.

[quote name='RobY']I would definately like to get this done beofre adding more power. A 300+ WHP goal with the stock suspension is just asking for trouble.[/QUOTE] It's going to be tough going in a straight line with that much power. It's already kind of astonishing how much the car will squat with 100 less hp..

One question for everyone about CR - What is your favorite beer? What, you didn't answer Old Milwaukee? CR says it is the best!! Don't ever forget that CR factors price into their ratings.....I don't know the weighting, but it is heavy enough to cause a really bad beer to be chosen as the best (mainly due to non-offensive taste and low price). Remember that next time when you use CR's recommendations to choose a product.

[quote name='RobY']I took a left turn at an intersection at 50 mph in attempts to make a yellow light. I Let off the throttle and the rear started stepping out. Luckily I got back on the throttle mid apex and exited the turn at the top of 2nd gear around 60 mph. If I hadent had known this and just paniced and let off the throttle or even BRAKED mid apex I would have spun out.[/QUOTE] You are aware, of course, that even as you call the GT a soft, understeering pig of a car, you took a left-hand turn at more than 50 mph, exiting the corner at 60 mph? Think about that for a second. :lol: Like the WRX, the Legacy demands smoothness. It's almost as if Subaru, in tuning the car, made it Darwinian. I remember letting this guy drive my wagon, and he had it understeering all over the place, with the ABS going off, and I said "Uh, pull over here." I then proceeded to go faster, more smoothly, with no dramatics. Weird how these cars are set up in that regard. Having learned smoothness (with no implications about the lack thereof of others, mind you), I am astounded at how fast the GT is. When you get out the throttle on a Subaru, there is weight transfer, and the diffs do their thing. I remember one day getting off the throttle in my WRX sufficiently hard that the front end got light and suddenly, it was almost an RWD car. Suffice it to say, as it was raining, getting back on the throttle caused a bit of (temporary) consternation. :lol: Kevin

GTGuy you misunderstand me... :) I was saying most cars set up with a suspension as soft as the LGT understeers like a pig (not talking about the LGT). To compensate for the panic braking mode most drivers do. HOWEVER The LGT isnt set up to understeer. Thus making it more prone to oversteer in throttle lift conditions. I attribute this to the soft suspension that allows greater wt transfer. I am suggesting that most cars that handle neutrally are sports cars with stiffer suspensions. Thus to combat ovesteer we should have a stiffer suspension too.

[quote name='RobY']GTGuy you misunderstand me... :) I was saying most cars set up with a suspension as soft as the LGT understeers like a pig (not talking about the LGT). To compensate for the panic braking mode most drivers do. HOWEVER The LGT isnt set up to understeer. Thus making it more prone to oversteer in throttle lift conditions. I attribute this to the soft suspension that allows greater wt transfer. I am suggesting that most cars that handle neutrally are sports cars with stiffer suspensions. Thus to combat ovesteer we should have a stiffer suspension too.[/QUOTE] Aha. Gotcha. A firmer suspension option would have been nice, but I wonder how many people would have opted for it? Keep an eye out for the pink STi springs on the USDM dampers review. Those might be just what you're after. Here's what's weird about the LGT's suspension. It's firm at the dampers, but soft at the springs. So it feels softer than it drives, which is weird. Then when you hit a sharp little bump, "Wham," because you're getting damper, instead of damper/spring. This is at the core of my supposition that the pink STi springs will be the mojo for the USDM cars. I think that everyone is waiting for Keefe's report on the ride and handling qualities of that setup. Kevin

Yeah keefe stop slackin :D

From reading several of them I would say that Comsumer Reports really prefers the sedate family car and is probably out of their element trying to assess sportier vehicles. Just look through their best pick cars sometime - it's a real hoot.