fast_5BE Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 A couple of quick questions (well, I'm sure there are long answers). 1. Strut tower braces: What's the difference between a $200 brace and the the $20 ones I see on ebay? Does anyone know if the ones on ebay are total crap, or are they made in china? Is a good brace going to significantly stiffen the front end? 2. As much as I'd love coil-overs, I can't drop $1500-2000 bucks right now, so I'm looking at beefier sway bars and some stiffer springs, preferably with about a 1" drop. Am I going to see a significant handling benefit with this? And yes, I do know tires are a big factor, I'm just waiting until the factory Potenzas are done to upgrade the rubber. I appreciate any advice you guys have. In case you're wondering, my 5BE wagon is stock, but running the SPT power pack (using Magna Flow cat-back as there is no SPT cat-back for the wagon) and the STI short throw shifter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Sorry for not following your format but I'd recommend a different approach: Swap out your tires for a really good A/S or dedicated tire and save for the coilovers or a quality spring/damper set. The swaybars should be addressed after you have established the suspension stiffness if the need still exists. The tower brace should come even after the swaybars but is so cheap (relatively) that it is appealing to do early... Save for the better suspension bits, in my opinion. You can keep the RE92's as a nice back-up pair or you can sell them on here to make some of the cost back. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 always do tires first, then dampers, then springs, then swaybars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleBlueGT Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 People here hate the RE92s. They are not that bad, better then many tires out there on economy cars. I don't like them either (sold mine the first day) but they have more performance then many AS tires. Full tune of 68HTA, KSTech 73 MAF, Racer X FMIC and ID1000s................by the DataLog Mafia!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluechipbmw Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 always do tires first, then dampers, then springs, then swaybars. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 always do tires first, then dampers, then springs, then swaybars. Listen to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Sorry for not following your format but I'd recommend a different approach: Swap out your tires for a really good A/S or dedicated tire and save for the coilovers or a quality spring/damper set. The swaybars should be addressed after you have established the suspension stiffness if the need still exists. The tower brace should come even after the swaybars but is so cheap (relatively) that it is appealing to do early... Save for the better suspension bits, in my opinion. You can keep the RE92's as a nice back-up pair or you can sell them on here to make some of the cost back. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsme Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 I had and front and rear tower brace. I got rid of the rear because I didn't like the way the nuts wouldn't go all the way down on the bolt. Didn't feel an improvement. The other of mods on my wagon: 1. I got new wheels and tires 19"x7.5" w/225/35/19. Made the car grip better and not as skiddish. 2. Whiteline front and rear adj. swaybars(set on soft) and with stock endlinks. Really controls body motion did not hurt ride. Cut out alot of the body roll. 3. H-tech springs. They lower @.9" all the way around. Close to stock ride nice stance. Will keep stock struts till they go out. What's next for me 1. Superpro poly lower control arm bushings. I will have these installed when I get my car serviced this month. To replace the big rubber tennis ball we have and to take play out of front end. 2. AVO rear sway bracket. Just in case. 3. Cusco F&R lower control arm braces. I plan on keeping my car and I want to keep the body stiff over time. This is how low the H-tech drops a wagon. Racer X FMIC for '05-'09 LGTs, '08+ WRX and '10+ LGT,'14+ FXT, and '15+ WRX TMIC Racerxengineering.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fast_5BE Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 always do tires first, then dampers, then springs, then swaybars. I think you're right, the only problem is I don't want to spend the money on tires until mine wear out (I could sell them, but I'll just wait it out), and new dampers wont lessen the ugliness of 2" clearance between the tops of my tires and the fender line! I've got a set of iON performance springs on the way, then next will be tires, followed by dampers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 oh, so your priority is looks, not performance. trust me when i tell you that a car with crap tires and aftermarket performance springs will handle alot worse than a car with very nice tires and stock springs. Tires are THE MOST important suspension upgrade you can do to your car. but you seem to care more about getting rid of wheel gap than performance so springs is the obvious first choice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 trust me when i tell you that a car with crap tires and aftermarket performance springs will handle alot worse than a car with very nice tires and stock springs. Handle worse in what sense? And why? "Trust me" doesn't count for much, I have no idea who you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinlsb Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Tower braces are a waste of money. Better tires are great, but I'd wait until your old ones are worn out. Start with sways, stiffer springs and lowering are great until you hit bumpy roads or tracks for that matter. The idea is to maintain contact with the road. Lowering reduces suspension travel. Great on smooth pavement, dangerous in the bumps. (racing driver since 1964) EEEgads, I am a fossil:icon_bigg "Belief does not make truth. Evidence makes truth. And belief does not make evidence." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rougeben83 Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 Difference between a $20 strut brace and a $200 one? The more expensive one you can type proudly in your "mod list" on car forums May as well save up for wheels + tires. Wider, lighter rims, with wider, stickier tires; best bang for the buck for the overall performance of the car. Of course you don't have to follow this exact order; more importantly is that you have get them in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 whitetiger knows what he is talking about.. I do a lot of performance driving as well and we both do a lot of autocrosses and have seen MANY stock cars with sticky race tires can out run a fairly street legal suspension car with just street tires. We both agree that tires (and lightweight wheels) are the real concern first because that's the only thing that really between the car and the road. Having lighter wheels help as this allows the suspension to work more efficiently.. just imagine you holding a 5 lbs dumbell vs a 10 lbs dumbell, it's obvious that it's easier for you to control and swing your arm around with the 5 lbs than the 10 lbs one. Shocks and Springs can be done at the same time (in my opinion it SHOULD be done at the same time as they need to work together properly). Sway bars are next to see if you need to fine-tune the handling characteristics of the car.. remember, sway bars take away the independent suspension model so get your shocks and springs set up correctly as much as you can before you need to add a final touch of a larger sway or not. An alignment will do wonders more so than have a set of strut bars and brackets. Do the strut bars and support brackets last as soon as you get everything else done.. you might not even need them simply that you may not be driving that hard to begin with that would twist the chassis.. I know that I drive my cars that hard that I end up lifting wheels all the time during autocrosses using sticky tires, so it's nice to have the braces to keep the car as rigid as the rule books allow: (see rear right tire lifting in all 3 pics, including the last one in the rain): http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/2175/keefe1ep5.jpg http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/8186/keefe4sl5.jpg http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/6105/kelly2eo4.jpg My GT and the RS have two different setups, but both are not maxed out loaded to the brim with suspension parts.. i only buy what I need to make the car handle in a certain way that I need it to be.. Here's a quick run down of what I have on the GT and RS respectively: GT: Endless Zeal V6 Coilovers (8kg front springs/6kg rear springs) Cusco Vacanza Front 23mm Sway Bar Cusco Vacanza Rear 21mm Adjustable Sway Bar Cusco Rear Underbrace STi Front tower strut bar (it was a free gift) SSR Competition Lightweight 17"x7.5" wheels (12.5 lbs each) RS: Cusco Zero2R Custom Coilovers (10kg front springs/7kg rear springs) Cusco Rear 21mm Adjustable Sway Bar SSR Competition Lightweight 17"x7.5" wheels (12.5 lbs each) Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Handle worse in what sense? And why? "Trust me" doesn't count for much, I have no idea who you are. the term "worse" would mean that your grip level (amount of g-forces) didnt increase and your "window of grip" isnt that wide of a band.. the stiffer your suspension parts are when working with crappy tires, the easier it is for you to overdrive the limit of the tire's grip capacity.. this can easily happen by spinning or sliding on bald all-season tires (which is different compared to race compound tires where the rubber is way softer and can handle the heat better) and it's really easy to dial in too much steering where you can get a lot of either both understeer (lateral grip of the tires) or oversteer (rear tires do not have the grip level to keep the tires in contact of the road either by weight transfer, power-on acceleration, or also lateral grip). If you get to drive a real shifter kart (one that has a 20 to 30 hp motor that can do 0-60 in 2 seconds), there are NO suspension parts that you can adjust, the only thing that you can adjust are tire compounds and tire pressure.. that IS your suspension. Try to go fast in a car that uses no shocks or springs.. that's a challenge in itself.. In other words, Im using this exaggerated example to demonstrate "what if your GT's suspension is soo stiff that all you have to rely on for grip are the tires?" Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleBlueGT Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Nice write-up XenonK Full tune of 68HTA, KSTech 73 MAF, Racer X FMIC and ID1000s................by the DataLog Mafia!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 My bad... I misread the part about "crap" tires in whitetiger's post. I can certainly see how worse tires = worse handling, no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsme Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 So are you saying the the F&R lower control arm braces are not worth it? Racer X FMIC for '05-'09 LGTs, '08+ WRX and '10+ LGT,'14+ FXT, and '15+ WRX TMIC Racerxengineering.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 So are you saying the the F&R lower control arm braces are not worth it? at this point in time when you havent tackled the earlier and more important pieces (primary functions), I would have to say no, it's not a bang for your buck at all. If I had to choose between driving a completely stock car with awesome tires or a car that has every suspension part known to man but with crappy tires, I'll take the stock car with great tires. I have raced my GT in pure stock form with stock tires and another back to back autocross with lightweight wheels and tires... the difference is incredible. The car handles well for what it is in pure stock form (so long as you know where the limit of grip of the crappy all-season stock tires are). The moment I put on the Falken Azenis RT-615s street-compound "race" tires, the car was soo much better in all aspects, including braking as the ABS didnt kick in as early, allowing you to put in harder braking inputs. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 So what's you take on the lower braces... total waste? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 do them last in my opinion. There's no real need for them unless you are really beating down on your car. The car itself is pretty rigid as it is, but since the underbraces are tying into the pivot points of the control arms to the subframe, it's a nice addition to make sure those pivot points dont move/shift out of alignment.. if you drive that hard where you are lifting wheels and really put a beat down on your tires like I do (seen here), then it's a good idea to get them to keep the chassis from flexing too much over long periods of time where it starts to warp the chassis: http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6108/img0518a4rh.jpghttp://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2008/img0507a8ds.jpg Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 No, I definately don't beat up my car... Someone here was recommending them as a good measure to keep the car "tight" for extended period of time, i.e. worthwhile for someone keeping the car many years. Makes sense you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 usually, other things get beaten up way before something like would happen.. like I said, the chassis itself is stiff enough to take the beating.. unless you drive pretty hard like me, then it's just better off to take apart the car and just start seam welding every part of the car that wasnt tack-welded on. That would yield way more rigidity short of a full-roll cage. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinlsb Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 All I can tell you is the primary problem with the LGT wagon stock handling is body roll. And anti-roll bars fix that. Adding stiffer springs to address body roll is not the answer. Lowering the car with stiffer springs without adding shocks can make the car handle worse than stock. Unless you want to get really into suspension tuning, add roll bars (F&R) first. If you are into bling, then springs are a good choice. But remember that lowering the car changes suspension geometry particularly when the wheels are turned into a corner. Springs DO address the issue of dive and squat in the LGT. But unless you are talking about drag or Autox, it is not a big deal deal in daily driving (spirited type) Try to get a ride in car that has only spring upgrades and another that has only sways(F&R) You will be surprised!!! "Belief does not make truth. Evidence makes truth. And belief does not make evidence." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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