member to member selling issues

Hey guys,

 

I seem to be having a problem with one of my sales. Perhaps you guys can help me out.

 

Mods if this is in the wrong place please move it.

 

A while back I bought the 07 Spec B interior from PhoenixLegacy. I bought the seats and the door panels. I decided not to install the door panels because I already had carbon fibre trim on my door panels. Here is the link to the sale thread of the door panels:http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56630

 

And to our emails:

Godwin Chen wrote:

 

> Tom,

>

>

>

> I was very disappointed to read what you wrote to me

> in your private

> message. I am disappointed because before I decided

> to let my brother pick

> up the panels for me, I checked your iTrader ratings

> and you had great

> reviews. Also, you seem like a very honest and

> upstanding person on the

> telephone. Honest to the point that I was

> comfortable with you holding $300

> for the time being, as we discussed in our

> conversation earlier today.

>

>

>

> You described to me that these panels were "brand

> new", and I quote that

> from what we both have in our private messages. The

> reality of the matter is

> that these are far from "brand new". My brother did

> describe the condition

> to me over the phone, but I cannot judge them

> without seeing them for

> myself. You never sent me the photos as I requested.

> I was under the

> impression, after my brother told me that you would

> be willing to work with

> me, that if I was not satisfied you would help me

> resolve this. What that

> meant to me was if we can't find another buyer, you

> would be willing to give

> me a refund.

>

>

>

> What that means to me right now is if we do not find

> another buyer, I am out

> $300. Please understand why I feel like I'm being

> passed the buck. I was not

> negligent, I did not protract the time from date of

> purchase unreasonably. I

> regret the fact that I couldn't have been there

> myself, I hope my brother

> communicated that to you as I instructed him to.

>

>

> Either way, I will not let myself be the judge of

> this situation if it does

> not end amicably. It seems to me that you have made

> a decision, I hope you

> will reconsider and change course.

>

> Concerning the time line...

>

>

>

> - If you make any corrections, please type

> in *boldface* any

> additions you make.

>

> - If you would like to remove anything you

> believe to be false,

> please *strike through and boldface* instead of

> deleting them from the

> document.

>

> - Please save a new, dated copy of all the

> changes made instead of

> saving over the original document, as shown in the

> name of this file.

>

>

>

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Godwin Chen

 

Godwin,

 

I'm sorry to hear that this has been a poor experience for you, but hopefully both of us can walk away learning something. I do have a good i-Trader rating, and I am an honest person. My i-Trader rating is high because I have an understanding of the type of transactions that are going on on the board. There is a significant difference between individual to vendor transactions and individual to individual transactions. The panels were 'brand new' when I spoke to you via PM, however they were brand new takeoffs. Meaning that they had been taken off a brand new car (This could mean glue, foam, popits or other securing aspects may be used or have wear and tear) Also, the panels received the indents and blemishes ON THE WAY to meet your brother. When I took the panels out I was just as surprised to see the indents as he was. If you can not judge them for yourself and were unaware of your satisfaction with the panels, then your brother should not have bought them for you. Also, at the time of the transaction there was no mention of any kind of refund policy. Your brother asked me after his phone conversation with you, after he had the panels and I had the money if you could CALL me with any QUESTIONS. This does not imply a refund policy, or any obligation on my part to ensure that you are satisfied beyond your current level. I am doing my best to help you find another buyer, but as I said before these are your panels, and your responsability. I do understand that you feel that this is not your fault. However, you did authorize a purchase for goods that you knew were not in 'brand new' condition. If this is not the condition you were looking for you should not have authorized the sale. And if you did not trust your brother to be a good judge of the product, then you should not have sent him to buy them from me, you should have come yourself! Also, if there was a concern about the condition of the panels and you thought that you may have wanted to return them, then you should have discussed this with me over the phone BEFORE your brother bought them, not a full day afterwards. Please understand that I have been where you are before. I have bought things from a member and realized that it either wasn't what I was looking for, or it wasn't what I expected. The best thing to do is to sell it and try to recoup your money.

 

I have read the timeline, but I don't feel comfortable making changes and sending them to you. Although I DO NOT agree with everything that is written there.

 

Please note that my continued involvement in this situation is voluntary, as these panels are now yours. I am doing this because I want to help you. I am just another member of an online community. Please try to be open minded about what is really going on here. Your not letting me 'hold' the money. You have purchased something from me. The product is yours, and the money is mine.

 

I wish you all the best in resolving this situation and finding another buyer. I will start a thread on LegacyGT.com so that perhaps you can draw on the experience of others to help you.

-Tom

 

So I'm trying to explain to him that if he knew they were not in prestine condition, he should not have instructed his brother to buy them for him. There are a couple of things wrong with the panels. #1 The styrofoam backing on one of them is ripped, but I'm guessing that happened taking them off the Spec B. Thats how I got them, and I'm sure that the professional staff at Phoenix Performance Tuning, who build race cars for a living, did the best possible job. The styrofoam is glued on. #2. Godwin says that somebody tried to take just the alcantara panel off the door panel and tried to reglue it on. I really can't speak for this. I didn't see that on the panels when I had them and I didn't do that. I think that perhaps the panel came loose and they are originally held together with glue and popits #3 there were some indents on the door panels that happened on the way to meet his brother while the panels were in my trunk. His brother John called him and told him about this before his brother John bought them. I'm trying to explain to him that I am not a store and I don't have refund policy. If he didn't want them, he shouldn't have bought them. If I felt that I did something wrong, I would give him his money back. Any input from others would be appreciated.

Personally i think you both screwed up. You said brand new, not brand new before i rip them off the car. It is not the buyers fault that your shop messed up the uninstall etc. However he should have never bought them at that point. I think that you should refund some of his money back to him and let him keep the panels and do what he wants with them. If he had pay paled u the money and then you shipped them this way, pay pal would side with him because you misrepresented your product. Its like me selling you a car, and me scratching the paint taking off my plates, its my fault so i should either take some of the price off or he should not buy it. It sounds like somehow the brother had no idea what they should to look like or did not describe them, but i still feel that you owe this guy some money. Also just because the shop screwed up taking them off, its not the buyers fault, you also did a poor job taking them to him.

 

Basically you feel that just because his brother got them for him you are off the hook for all the stuff you messed up on a "brand new" piece. I think the best thing would be for you to either take them back and resell them yourself and take the hit because YOU messed them up (You also inculeds your shop, you can deal with them yourself if you feel u can) or you can pay him some of his money back for the damage and he can do whatever he wants with them. IMO you owe the guy some money, i hope you work it out, because by posting this up here everyone will know what kind of seller you. You can either be a stand up guy and work something out with him, or be a shady guy and screw the kid over for some of your mistakes. I know personally what will happen to my thoughts of you if you dont help him out some.

^^^

+234

 

A reduced price on the goods should satisfy the buyer. There was mis-representation on your part as to what exactly you were selling. Plus if the product was damaged somehow in shipping, you should have packed it up better.

 

If you continue to hold on to your position and tell him 'tough shit, that's the way it is...' you will get chastised on this board.

 

 

 

Other members have even offered up full refunds to buyers who didn't receive goods due to the Courier company screwing up and losing the package... that is going over-and-above the standard of resolution, but if a reputation is on the line, people will do what is needed.

I considered making this a public matter on the forum, but decided against it in hopes that we would solve this without involving everyone. Now that this has been made available to the public, I am forced to defend myself.

 

My brother did look at the panels for me at the time. According to what he said to me, I decided that the panels were acceptable. Upon looking at them myself, I realized new damage, that was more substantial than previously known by Tom and my brother. Tom expressed that he did not have prior knowledge of this damage before, and neither did my brother. That is why I am seeking a refund.

 

Had the panels only suffered the minor indentations as identified as my brother, I would not have objected. But it was apparent to me that someone had tried to remove the blue inserts in the panels, then decided against it halfway through and "glued" it back on. That insert it poorly attached and is loose. There is also foam deadening that is missing, and was obviously ripped off in the attempt to remove the blue panel. This fact was never brought to light until I found them myself, contrary to Tom's assertion that my brother made this knowledge available to me at the time of transaction. Tom expressed surprise in our telephone conversation when I brought up this finding.

 

At this time, I will proceed with this transaction in good faith and await a buyer for these panels. I was going to consult with Tom on how to advertise these panels, since I will not allow myself to advertise them as "brand new" knowing the condition that they are in. It will be hard for someone to pay the price I did for these. This is all I will say for the time being, for the sake of preserving the relationship that still remains.

 

edit: Tom, I wish you would have consulted with me before posting this thread. My message was intended for you, and you only.

Moderators, perhaps this should be placed in the classifieds section. That is where this thread can serve it's purpose most effectively.

I see mistakes on both sides.

 

1) "Take-offs" are not "brand new"

 

2) always send pics

 

3) buyer should always educate him/herself on the product. What looks fine to someone else (even your brother) might not look fine to you...get there or get hi-res pics.

 

4) I would not send any money back because buyer was not educated/ hastily purchased.

 

5) Going public without notification is not cool.

 

Simple solution:

 

You both walk away with gained knowledge for future sales.

Godwin,

 

I am sorry that my posting has upset you. If I thought it would, I would not have done so. My only hope was to help clear this up.

 

I am also glad that we have gotten to the heart of the matter. It seems that the indents are not a problem, so lets put that aspect of the issue to rest.

 

From your statements I can gather that the real issue surrounds the blue panel on the rear door. I was completely unaware of this issue until you spoke to me about it on the phone. I can only take your word that it is true, and that indeed someone did try to glue the panel back on, and ripped some foam off in the process, and that this happened before they left my possession. Neither your brother, nor I recognized this at the time of the transaction, and thus can not confirm this.

 

What I can say is this. In reality, this is probably both of our faults. Your brother did not notice this upon his inspection of the products, and I did not speak to you on the phone to ensure your satisfaction.

 

Here is my offer:

The total cost for all four panels was $300. The issue is with one of them, therefore the prorated cost of the issue is $75. Since we seem to be unable to agree upon who should be to blame for this I suggest that we split the cost of the panel at $38.50 each, meaning that I will refund you $38.50. I think this is a fair compromise and I hope that it will be acceptable to you. (This is providing you don't sell them for the same amount or more)

 

I would prefer to keep the remaining aspects of the resolution public. I have seen too many threads where people have confused the facts because they have tried to explain something long after it has happened. This thread only has 5 posts and people are already misinterpreting things.

Godwin,

 

I am sorry that my posting has upset you. If I thought it would, I would not have done so. My only hope was to help clear this up.

 

I am also glad that we have gotten to the heart of the matter. It seems that the indents are not a problem, so lets put that aspect of the issue to rest.

 

From your statements I can gather that the real issue surrounds the blue panel on the rear door. I was completely unaware of this issue until you spoke to me about it on the phone. I can only take your word that it is true, and that indeed someone did try to glue the panel back on, and ripped some foam off in the process, and that this happened before they left my possession. Neither your brother, nor I recognized this at the time of the transaction, and thus can not confirm this.

 

What I can say is this. In reality, this is probably both of our faults. Your brother did not notice this upon his inspection of the products, and I did not speak to you on the phone to ensure your satisfaction.

 

Here is my offer:

The total cost for all four panels was $300. The issue is with one of them, therefore the prorated cost of the issue is $75. Since we seem to be unable to agree upon who should be to blame for this I suggest that we split the cost of the panel at $38.50 each, meaning that I will refund you $38.50. I think this is a fair compromise and I hope that it will be acceptable to you. (This is providing you don't sell them for the same amount or more)

 

I would prefer to keep the remaining aspects of the resolution public. I have seen too many threads where people have confused the facts because they have tried to explain something long after it has happened. This thread only has 5 posts and people are already misinterpreting things.

 

It hasn't upsetted me, it was a surprise to see private correspondence on a public forum. I see your reasoning, but I feel it's a deviation from the key issue; that is, I was buying four (4) panels completely intact, save a few blemishes. A set of four (4) panels, where one has a substantial damage, doesn't do me any good. I can't have three (3) new panels and one (1) old.

 

These panels were not meant to be taken apart, as they have been. The damage is permanent.

 

From now on I will only use this thread for clarification purposes. I will not let it get muddied into personal attacks. My issue is with the events that have transpired, not Tom himself. I have my own point of view on certain details, but I feel they will only degrade this dispute to a point requiring external intervention. For that, I will hold my tongue.

 

I will continue to wait for a buyer as we agreed.

It hasn't upsetted me, it was a surprise to see private correspondence on a public forum. I see your reasoning, but I feel it's a deviation from the key issue; that is, I was buying four (4) panels completely intact, save a few blemishes. A set of four (4) panels, where one has a substantial damage, doesn't do me any good. I can't have three (3) new panels and one (1) old.

 

These panels were not meant to be taken apart, as they have been. The damage is permanent.

 

I will continue to wait for a buyer as we agreed.

 

I see your reasoning as well. However, the fact that the damage was not recognized by anyone until one day after the transaction was completed, even upon inspection by your brother (who you authorized as your agent) concerns me. Had this been recognized at the time of delivery I would have taken responsability, however I won't take the blame for something we aren't even sure happened while I still had them. If the damage is so substantial, perhaps you can identify the reason neither your brother, nor I noticed it during the transaction and ispection.

 

My offer still stands. Please clearly identify if you are willing to accept the prorated refund or not in your next post.

No. Let's wait for a buyer.

I see your reasoning as well. However, the fact that the damage was not recognized by anyone until one day after the transaction was completed, even upon inspection by your brother (who you authorized as your agent) concerns me. Had this been recognized at the time of delivery I would have taken responsability, however I won't take the blame for something we aren't even sure happened while I still had them. If the damage is so substantial, perhaps you can identify the reason neither your brother, nor I noticed it during the transaction and ispection.

 

My offer still stands. Please clearly identify if you are willing to accept the prorated refund or not in your next post.

 

The damage was recognized the day of the transaction, four (4) hours after the purchase. I called you the day after. I didn't feel it was appropriate to call after 10:00PM.

My take... it seems the panels were advertised and sold in "new" condition when they were infact take-offs, used, not new, ect. That fact was misrepresented by the seller, and insufficiently investigated by the buyer.

 

I have bought/sold a number of private sale items on this board as well as eBay. If I was the seller, I would take them back to protect my reputation as a seller. If I was the buyer, I would have insited upon hi-res pictures or picked them up myself for proper inspection.

My take... it seems the panels were advertised and sold in "new" condition when they were infact take-offs, used, not new, ect. That fact was misrepresented by the seller, and insufficiently investigated by the buyer.

 

I have bought/sold a number of private sale items on this board as well as eBay. If I was the seller, I would take them back to protect my reputation as a seller. If I was the buyer, I would have insited upon hi-res pictures or picked them up myself for proper inspection.

 

Thats pretty much what i was saying. Both of you screwed up, the question is whether the seller will man up about the problems or just ignore it. Maybe you can just buy him that one panel? Personally from what i have read on here, as a seller, i would try to make things right.

The issue that I see with this is that the reason that he wants a refund is 'severe damage' However, neither I nor the buying agent (his brother) noticed this damage. How do I know this didn't happen after he had them? Why didn't anybody notice this before he got them? I'm not saying that it is impossible that the damage occurred before he got them, but I think it is a little fishy that two people handled these things and neither of them noticed this 'severe damage' even upon inspection. This is why I agreed to split it 50/50. I can not control what people think about me. A reputation is only worth the person it represents. I have tried to offer a fair compromise and have made every attempt to do what I think is right. The fact that I continue to get positive feed back from other people will speak for itself. You live and you learn. I will no longer deal with peoples brothers, cousins or friends. If YOU want it then YOU come to buy it. No phantom damage hours or days later.

I gave my brother specific instructions on how to transport the panels. The sides of the panels that are visible when installed were to be lain facing each other, so there would be no scuffs or marks. When I arrived home, I found them all leaning against a wall in a way that the face of the panels had no direct contact with anything. As of now, they are carefully placed in a closet that is not used.

 

If you would like pictures of what I am describing, please ask me. If you are making an accusation, please say so.

 

You still haven't advised me on how to advertise these panels.

 

edit: I have gone ahead and uploaded the pictures. There are also deep scratches on the driver door handle, but that can be replaced. Please consider whether I could have reasonably glued the panels as shown between the time of transaction at 6:15pm and my phone call the next morning.

 

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6521/dsc00276mz6.th.jpghttp://img341.imageshack.us/img341/2905/dsc00274gs1.th.jpghttp://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5475/dsc00275fh6.th.jpghttp://img178.imageshack.us/img178/693/dsc00272on3.th.jpghttp://img405.imageshack.us/img405/9461/dsc00282oh3.th.jpghttp://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4577/dsc00281as7.th.jpg

 

Picture 1: Seperation of panel and alcantra insert.

Picture 2: Glued alcantra insert.

Picture 3: Alcantra insert as it should be installed.

Picture 4: Removed foam.

Picture 5: Cosmetic damage, already acknowledged during the transaction.

Picture 6: Cosmetic damage, already acknowledged during the transaction.

I haven't made any accusations. What I'm saying is that it is strange that nobody noticed the damage during the inspection (which I can see is fairly obvious now). Please try not to jump to conclusions. What I AM saying is that since nobody noticed this damage during the time of inspection, and the first time I was notified about it was one day afterwards it is equally likely that it occured while the panels were in your possession as it is that the damage occurred while they were in mine.

 

You DO seem like an honest guy, but I've spoken to you on the phone maybe two or three times. It's really not enough for me to make a good judge of your character. Also, you called me at 11:06 the next day, I think 17 hours is enough time to glue something. I AM NOT saying you did this. All I'm saying is that since it is uncertain whether this happened while I still had them, or while you had them we should share the blame. This is why I suggested a 50/50 split.

 

I have told you previously to advertise these however you feel comfortable. You do what you feel is right. I am not a classifieds advisor. I've tried to offer you a settlement regarding our transaction and it was turned down. I will continue to direct buyers from the board to you if they approach me. I'm sure that you have gotten some PMs already. Good luck with your sale.

 

 

Also, you still haven't explained why your brother did not notice this damage and report it to you. Please explain how such severe damage went unrecognized during the inspection. It does seem pretty clear to me that some styrofoam has been ripped and there was some gluing. I don't understand how neither of us noticed this, despite the apparent obvious nature of the damage.

I haven't received any PMs yet. The only reason I can give for why neither of you spotted this damage is that it's on the backside, not the front. When inspecting a panel for damage one would mostly be concerned with what is visible when installed. Regardless, I feel the evidence is overwhelming that these panels arrived in my posession as you see them. I am also in a position to make accusations.

 

My family operates a parking lot and I spent the bulk of Saturday and Sunday plowing and manually breaking ice.

 

When did you offer a 50/50 split? The only deal that I'm aware of is a $38.50 refund.

I am also in a position to make accusations.

 

What does this mean?

 

When did you offer a 50/50 split? The only deal that I'm aware of is a $38.50 refund.

 

I offered a 50/50 split on the damaged product. The one door panel that you say is not up to your standards. I offered that we split the cost of it.

 

The 'evidence' you've offered to overwhelmingly support your claim is that your brother didn't inspect the panels properly and that you didn't have enough time to glue something in 17 hours because you were working most of the time. This is hardly evidence. The fact is that the only thing we have is your word, and frankly I've just met you and the only interaction I've had with you is negative. You have no iTrader feedback.

 

All I'm saying is that I am not certain that this happened before I gave your brother the panels. This is why I'm saying we should split the cost of the defective panel. A 50/50 split on that panel. I'm doing my best to try to compromise with you, but your not budging.

 

Recognize the fact that if this happened before you got them, then since your brother didn't notice it at the time of delivery, and I had never noticed this damage before, that I can't be certain that you didn't do it. I'm not saying that your a bad guy, or that your brother is either. All I'm saying is that there is no proof that this is the condition your brother received them in. And therefore, we should split the cost.

 

I'm trying to be as accomidating as possible, but I'm not a business. If you want customer service go to a vendor. If you continue to argue with me and refuse to work with me, at some point I'll give up and tell you that you can deal with the panels and your brother on your own.

I haven't refused to work with you, I am still pursuing an amicable resolution in good faith. I turned down your offer because I could not cure the problems with the door with $38.50. I am still open to other possibilities.

 

I am a buyer, my responsibility is to deliver the $300. You are not a vendor, but you are a seller. As a seller you have the responsibility to deliver what you have described. I found out that the panels had blemishes for myself, and then the other defects after.

 

If you would like to see some feedback, you may ask PGT. I bought his P1's a long time ago (before iTrader) for $900 and worked with him through some delays on his part, though they were no fault of his own. You can also check my eBay rating at "En1ight7."

 

What I meant by "I am also in a position to make accusations" is that you could have tried to remove the alcantra panels to save on shipping to another buyer, then realizing it would not work, you glued it back on. I can also say since you were negligent in transporting the panels to me, you could have been negligent in inspecting the panels yourself when you purchased them. But I'm not going to since, as you said, it's your word against mine. So let's just keep it simple.

If the seller and the brother were so fixated on the "front" of these door panels, how come no one saw the damage in the 6th picture in post 15? Someone is blatantly lying about this situation or everyone involved has vision problems. I would have to call the panel in the 6th picture "poor" or "damaged".

 

I could see some prople missing the damage in picture 5 (from the left). I have no idea what I am supposed to be looking for in the other 4 pictures.

 

Someone needs to fess up...brother maybe?

If the seller and the brother were so fixated on the "front" of these door panels, how come no one saw the damage in the 6th picture in post 15? Someone is blatantly lying about this situation or everyone involved has vision problems. I would have to call the panel in the 6th picture "poor" or "damaged".

 

I could see some prople missing the damage in picture 5 (from the left). I have no idea what I am supposed to be looking for in the other 4 pictures.

 

Someone needs to fess up...brother maybe?

 

I have edited that post to explain what you're supposed to be looking for. If you read the rest of the thread, you will see that I've already accepted the damages in picture 5 and 6 as part of the deal. As I stated before, I gave my brother very specific instructions on how to transport the panels.

I would think getting some styrofoam and copying what the blocks are supposed to look like (get some packing material, use a bread knife and glue it in place), would take care of that issue (it doesn't cover the whole backside of the door panel does it?

 

Is the one Alcantara panel permanently deformed that it can't be glued or otherwise fastened back into place? I would think a shop thay does custom auto upholstery could deal with this issue. Someone on this forum had this panel redone with leather (car came with cloth), so I know it can be done.

 

I could not live with the cosmetic damage if someone gave the panels to me at no charge.

+1 those aren't even close to "brand new" condition. The seller admitted to having the panels beaten up in the back of his truck. You need to make things right dude. Really shady stuff.

I could not live with the cosmetic damage if someone gave the panels to me at no charge.

 

+1 that one panel is junk

 

Does the brother wear eyeglasses? Should he?

He wears glasses and he just got newly prescribed ones.