Legacy/Outback Reviews & Articles List

If we keep all of USDM reviews in one place, it will be easier to keep track of which ones we have, or have not read. Subdriven: [url]http://www.subdriven.com/artman/publish/article_177.shtml[/url] National Post (Canadian): [url]http://autos.canada.com/national/buying/story.aspx?id=D188457F-5C81-4BA8-B196-A877D0EC1FD8[/url] Toronto Star: [url]http://thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1083881408915&call_pageid=972403873938&col=972403874481[/url] Edmunds: [url]http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/firstdrive/101838/article.html?tid=edmunds.h..reviews.rightbanner.1[/url] Mprezya: [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=556879[/url] MSN: [url]http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4022499&src=Home&pos=Edit2[/url] Canadian Driver (Outback review): [url]http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/ly/05outback.htm[/url] Autoweek: [url]http://www.autoweek.com/search/search_display.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=reviews&content_code=03920136&Search_Type=STD&Search_ID=2136955&record=1[/url] Various: [url]http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX?14@43.rfkmch8xALe.1@.ef16f98/2034[/url] MSN: [url]http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/jedlicka.aspx?modelid=11212&src=vip[/url]

No need to bump it now. :)

appreciate...

Another one here: [url]http://www.newcartestdrive.com/printversion-review.cfm?Vehicle=2005_Subaru_Legacy&ReviewID=1564[/url]

OK, here is ateixeira's (aka juice) reports his trip to Vegas and drive of the new Legacy's and Outbacks. [quote]#20418 of 20442 Where do I start? VDC... by ateixeira May 19, 2004 (7:43 am) First off, a special thanks to SoA, for caring enough about their customers to allow the Subaru Crew the luxury of an insider's look at what is truly a fantastic line of vehicles. I'm getting spoiled with the red carpet treatment! I'll summarize first, because there is enough to talk about for weeks! First drive was a VDC. Yowsah. Makes the Volvo S40 I just drove seem like an econobox! Near silence at idle. The H6 was already quiet, now the whole vehicle is better insulated. Dual zone climate control (un-HAL like) with heated seats, aah. Settle in and get comfy right away. Driving off, the biggest improvement is the tranny. 5 ratios work wonders to keep this engine in its sweet spot. It's still not the torque pig down low, but the tranny is brilliant, HUGE improvement, much better than the F-XT I sampled. Perhaps this one had more time to adapt to aggressive driving. It kicks down smartly and quickly, though it's so smooth you have to look at the tach to know it's shifting. Second impression is the ride - wow, like a magic carpet. Very nicely insulated. Surprisingly a good handling balance, too, it did not feel tippy or lean as much as, say, the Volvo XC. We drove on an off road section, a rocky dirt trail, and it didn't miss a beat. Over crests it never bottomed out, we didn't even have to slow down! But I *have* to go back to the tranny, I was so impressed. It has 3 modes, Drive, Sport, and Manual. Drive strives for economy, and with instant mpg on the on-board computer you can measure it real-time. Sport impressed me, though, kicking down with any sudden throttle input, and I mean RIGHT NOW, no delay. Better yet, it would hold a gear longer. Interestingly both modes allow the engine to rev all the way to redline before shifting. Driven by guts inside. Manual mode was fun, quicker (by far) than Volvo or VW, but still not Porsche Boxster instant. As good as you can reasonably expect for a near-luxury car, though. Bob will chime in and rave about the smooth ride, which is what I think impressed him most. The VDC is not the boy racer's choice, but anyone else lucky enough to afford this will not be disappointed. -juice[/quote] [quote]#20420 of 20443 Legacy 2.5i Limited Automatic by ateixeira May 19, 2004 (7:53 am) I'll cover this before the GT (though we drove the 2.5i last), in an attempt to ramp up the drama. I'm cruel that way. :o) We hopped in a white sedan with a spoiler and took a long, leisurely ride on the highway. Not enough twisties to test the suspension, but the ride was nice. Silence. The biggest improvement from our 2002 Legacy L wagon is NVH control is hugely improved. We had to turn the radio off completely to hear some faint wind noise. Imagine driving the old model with ear plugs, and you get the general idea. The tranny here is a 4EAT, Sportshift again being a big improvement and the software is just so much better, it makes me think they switched from PC to Mac. ;-) Ride is better than our Legacy, impressive when you consider we were riding on 1" bigger rims with lower profile tires. The engine? Felt familiar, but somehow it seemed a little more spirited, my guess is the diet helped there. I'd have to guess 8 second range for 0-60, not bad for a base engine with automatic. Not lacking in any way, in fact it makes it harder to justify an upgrade (rats!). Combined with 22/30 (23/30 for a likely even quicker manual tranny) and this is the budget buy when gas prices are closing in on $2.50 per. I liked it, this would be the ideal car for my wife. She's been considering an automatic and complains that I didn't let her get a sedan, and the range would be excellent for her highway commute. That's what any reasonable person would think. For the rest of us, read on... -juice[/quote] [quote]#20422 of 20443 Legacy 2.5GT Limited by ateixeira May 19, 2004 (8:17 am) We approach the infield track at Las Vegas Motor Speedway and my heart beats rapidly, adrenaline already pumping. My eyes are almost tearing up with anticipation. I'm speechless as we walk up to a whole gaggle of GTs. My mouth is dry. Actually, it was dry all the time, this is the desert! ;-) I strap on the helmet and get in one of the very first cars to go out. This is a 5 speed manual sedan, Limited. I let into the clutch and immediately was impressed by the new dual-mass flywheel, it's so smooth that I think they must have used BMW's supplier. Best clutch and tranny combo I've ever tried in a Subaru. By far. We slowly make our way to the infield track, the expert co-driver gives me the green light to merge onto the track and I'm off...YEEEEEHAAAAAW! I'm instantly familiar with the car, but the track is all new to me, so I'm learning the line on the first lap. 2nd lap I'm getting up to speed, and just when I feel like Ayrton Senna it's time to pull in to the pits. Don't tease me! :o) No way, that's not enough. Don't care if I have to bribe someone, I'm going again. Luckily there is time, this time I get in a wagon, Sportshift. We were asked not to use Sportshift on the track, bummer, but that's OK, I can concentrate on the driving a little more, after all I am inexperienced. The auto is just fine, thanks, very smart, in fact I don't think I ever noticed it once, and that's a good thing. It was just always in the right gear, and never shifted mid-turn. The wagon feels no different, to be honest. The catch? This time the co-driver was baby-sitting, asking me to back off, interfering too much with my driving. Ugh. Frustrated, I feel like I can't get the full impression I want, after all this is The Mission. Sorry to be rude, but a Man's gotta do what a Man's gotta do. I get in line for a 3rd ride, apologies to anyone offended by my determination. The Crew would not be let down. Back to a sedan, manual. This time I tell the co-driver that I've done the track twice, know the line, and want to get a feel for the car at the limits. "All righty, Mate" YES! I time my entrance to the track so that I have plenty of room ahead of me. As I merge onto the track my smile was so wide that for the first time ever I saw the gums beyond my wisdom teeth. This turbo is blisteringly quick. I mean stupid fast. Your lap times are certainly not limited by the power available. Handling is neutral, the car drifts all 4 wheels as you hit that apex and accelerate out of it, no lag. The steering, ah. Wonderful. Tight and hefty feel, I checked the brochure later and sure enough, 2.8 turns lock to lock, nice and quick ratio. I was able to keep both hands on the wheel for the entire lap, and it was easy to clip each apex just where you wanted it. The brakes? I thought I was a jet landing on an air craft carrier. My eye balls popped out of their sockets at the end of the straight, in fact I scrubbed off too much speed and hit the corner a little slow. Still no problem power sliding out of the turn. :o) The track was fun, it had wide turns, but still short. On the straight I redlined 3rd and used 4th for a bit, so we probably hit 100+ I'm guessing. The car's behavior is impressive, smooth, neutral, it just didn't complain at all, no matter what you threw at it. 3rd time's a charm, I guess. I nailed it. The laps felt quick, in fact at the end I had caught up to the car in front of me and had to back off! No doubt I reached the limit of my skills FAR before the limits of this supreme automobile. I'm officially submitting a job application for Subaru Track Tester. This is way too fun. Yes, Ken, buy the GT, just don't rub it in too much, you promise? ;-) -juice[/quote] [quote]#20425 of 20443 Riding along on the Oval in a GT by ateixeira May 19, 2004 (8:36 am) You can't hit the speedway and not lap the oval. You just can't. I'd been to Walt Disney World Speedway and tried the Petty Experience, where you drive a Busch series around the track while following a lead car. It was fun, and loud, and I managed 122mph that day. That is the fastest I've ever gone. Was, that is. I strap in to the passenger seat, another GT sedan, manual tranny. Helmeted, of course. We accelerate down pit road and I get the first glimpse of a 5-60 acceleration run, with no clutch abuse. This car should easily be in the 5s, and under 14 seconds on the 1/4 mile. Can't say if it's quicker than the Forester XT, but they'd be close. We take a hard left on to the course like no Forester could (short of the STi). Still accelerating hard, once again the engine isn't nearly the limitation here, it's the tires. Turn one is gradual. Turn two is hard and part of it is banked. I brace myself like you do on a roller coaster ride. We come off the bank and accelerate towards the start line, hitting 120mph. Amazingly, the car is still quiet at that speed. I made less noise at 120mph than that Busch race car did at idle. The GT feels like she could go a lot faster with the right tires. We do a 2nd lap and pull in to pit row. The driver shows me the tires - the RE92s were shredding the outer tread blocks. V rated means 149mph, but in a straight line, not in sustained high speed racing conditions. Then I remembered I'd promised to try to video tape a hot lap. I was determined. I'll figure a way to upload it, today hopefully, so the Crew can watch. I waited until the entire group finished their laps, and then spoke to the SoA rep about my idea. No problemo, they put me in a car with newer tires, and informed the driver. I also told him I'd gone 122mph before. I think he took this as a challenge! Boy, I hadn't wet my pants since I rode along with Hutch... Just kidding. :o) The impressive thing about it is that even at 125mph (indicated), there is little drama. You feel lateral gs like crazy on the banks, especially on turn 2, my fave. There is some body lean, but this is not an STi, this is a car that has to be streetable. We pull in and I feel nothing but complete satisfaction. For your basic street legal Legacy GT to exceed the speed on an oval that I had achieved in a full blown race car boggles my mind. And with no drama, to boot. I hope the video captures 10% of what I felt, hopefully it will bring you all a good laugh at least. -juice[/quote] [quote]#20427 of 20443 Conclusion by ateixeira May 19, 2004 (8:49 am) My Kingdom for a Legacy GT Limited wagon! Subaru didn't have other cars along for comparison, but I can't help but try to think about this. On the low end, Mazda6? Size and styling are a match, but the engine has much less torque down low and even so manages to have nasty torque steer. It's also a lot louder, much less NVH control than the Subie. Sorry, nice as it is, it's not in the same class. Accord/Camry? Not in the same league of sportiness, sorry. Not even close. The overboosted steering makes these feel like school buses compared to the GT. Acura TSX? Haven't driven one, but look at the torque figures alone and you'll know. Audi A4 Quattro? I have not tried the current generation, but the last generation, even with a V6, might be a match for the base Legacy with a manual. Forget the GT. Handling, though, is reminiscent of my last Audi test. Passat? Well, compare the two and the interiors will seem familiar, with padded dash and head liner, upgraded carpets and trim, and good NVH control. But drive off and the Passat falls flat on its face, the Legacy GT will run laps around one. Volvo S40 T5? No way, sorry. It's slower, understeers, and the interior can only hope to compete with the Impreza's. BMW? Ah, the benchmark for sporty small sedans. But the last one I drove was an automatic 325i, and even at $32k it was not a match. I'd love to compare a 330i with the Sport package to a Legacy GT, though. Subaru seemed to combine the interior materials of the Passat, BMW's steering and clutch, Nissan VQ's torque, and Audi's traction, and wrapped in one heck of a car. Especially for the price, it doesn't get any better. -juice[/quote] Sorry for the long post, but I don't think linking them works because if you follow the link you are then logged in as me at Edmunds. Cheers! -Ian

Ok, here's rsholland's (aka Bob) report... [quote]1503 of 1534 Ride-n-Drive by rsholland May 19, 2004 (9:10 am) The Ride-n-Drive was divided into 5 sessions; actually 6, but more on that later. We all met around 8:15 in the morning, and boarded 5 tour buses that took us to Las Vegas race track. There were roughly 180 people taking part in Monday's Ride-n-Drive. I believe these were all district reps, SOA personnel, and guests like juice and I. Other invited guests included: Scott Putnum who has a dealer in Minnesota (he also rallys and was just competing at the Rim of the World event), Nick from nasioc, Alex from I-Club, Max from Carsdomain.com, Jacoby from subdriven.com, Jamie Thomas (aka Subie Gal), Dave from Legacycentral.com (I think that's correct?), and a few other guests too. Most of these folks were also at the Detroit event in January, so it was good seeing them again, and renewing friendships. Juice, did I miss anybody? Session 1 Outback VDC We all took the new VDC for about a 15-mile or so round trip. At the halfway point we switched drivers. I took the first leg, and juice took the second leg. This included roughly a mile excursion off road. I was ammazed at how well the Outback soaked up the rough gravel path we drove on. We did the off-road part at a a faster clip than I would normally drive at, and the Outback too it in stride. The only thing I was worried about was getting a flat. There were a lot of rocks, and the car came with street tires. There were perhaps 20 Outbacks in our group and nobody had any problems. I was very impressed. Out on the highway I was able to play with the SPORTSHIFT, and it worked as advertised. This new 5EAT is far superior to the old 4EAT. In addition to the manual mode, theres is a "sport" mode, which allows you fo rev much higher before upshifting. The power is much improved, but I still wish the engine was larger, if only to improve the low - mid range power. It is by no means a slug, but the VDC is a heavy car, and I think a 3.5 engine would be much appreciated. Session 2 Legacy GT Limited This was at the track, and included sedans and wagons. We were allowed to take the cars through the infield with a professional driver riding shotgun, and coaching us on driving. This was great. I was able to drive two 5-speed manuals, and one 5EAT. Folks this car scoots and handles! I think only if you own an STi, or something like that, would you be disappointed. I was able to get the car so that it was beginning to drift a little through some of the corners, and never felt as if I was going to lose it. I probably got it up to around 80 mph or so at some points through the infield, but I wasn't watching the speedo. Very impressive. Unfortunately we were not allowed to use the SPORTSHIFT mode on the automatic through this section. We then had a professional driver take us out on the banking, where we reached speeds of about 120 mph. I have some pics of the speedo at close to 100 mph on the banking corners. Juice made a video of that aspect! Session 3 Accessories This was a demo showing all the new options available. Session 4 Tech talk Another demo of the technical advancements made on the new cars. Session 5 Legacy i Limited This was a highway drive. It was an out and back drive on the roads highlighting the "livability" of the cars. Juice took the first leg, and I took the return trip. Even the non-turbo model is a very desirable car. It's very comfortable, has good power, and is very refined and quiet. Session 6 Off-road hill climb This was to be with the Outback, but unfortunately, they were still creating the off-road course. So we didn't get a chance to experience this, which was a real disappointment. From what I saw of the course, it looked pretty challenging; much more so than you would expect an Outback to handle. So that was the ride-'n-drive. It lasted perhaps 4 hours, and was a blast. Bob[/quote] Cheers! -Ian

[quote]#1511 of 1534 Other Stuff by ateixeira May 19, 2004 (10:24 am) Tranny has 3 modes, indeed. Drive is normal, but it shifts more quickly and smoother than the current models, IMO. I think it's tuned for efficiency, most of the time. Sport is cool, it holds a gear longer. Though even the regular Drive mode will take the engine to red line if you hold the throttle down. Sport mode was pretty smart in that it held a gear longer for passing. Then there's Sportshift, which responds more quickly than the 2.5GT I test drove last year. It's still not Porsche Boxster quick, but it beats VW's and Volvo's system for quickness. Nav is coming for sure, folks. I got scattered answers about which models. One guy said it would appear on the GT Limited, but then another said it would be offered on many models across the whole line up. So Nav fans should be pleased. I'd guess they'll show up about this time next year (May 2005). Compare auto to manual? They definitely closed the gap, the auto is much, much better now. It's smarter and shifts quicker, plus tends to pick the right gear and hold it. The 5 speeds are brilliant, and in fact make the H6 quicker because they keep it in the power band. However, the GT's dual mass flywheels is nice, you feel the clutch's smoothness. It's light, too, and engages smoothly, not one bit of a hint of chatter, in fact the feel was not even recognizable. So both are improved, but IMO the auto improved more, so it's closed the gap between the two. With the 2004, the 5MT was, to me, a no-brainer. Now it's a tough decision. Get the automatic guilt-free, if that's what you want. The GT auto is still blisteringly quick, and lag is non-extant. That plus the tranny picks the right gear. If I had to guess, I'd put 0-60 times at about: Legacy GT 5MT: 5.5 seconds GT auto: 6.2 seconds VDC auto: 7.0 seconds 2.5i auto: 8.5 seconds So each is quicker than its predecessor, and the turbos blow them all away. By the way, Subaru's official estimate for the Outback XT for 0-60 is 5.9 seconds, so even their conservative numbers hint at 60mph in less than 6 seconds. Plus, the Legacy is 100 lbs or so lighter, AND the tires have less diameter, making gearing shorter. It's quick, folks. -juice[/quote] [quote]#1512 of 1534 Driving Impressions by ateixeira May 19, 2004 (10:33 am) I agree with the comment above about the steering feel, it's tighter and not overboosted like Honda and Toyota tends to do. The Legacy GT has even quicker steering that felt wonderful. In fact this is what stood out most, since I'd experienced this kind of power in the Forester XT already. #1 surprise impression for the GT: steering. For the VDC? Smoothness. NVH is better, and it was already good. You have to look at the tach to see the shifts. It's quiet. In fact I opened a window and was shocked at the contrast. You barely hear a semi driving right by you in the next lane. The H6 still doesn't match the down-low torque of the turbo, but the tranny is so much smarter it might not matter. Base Legacy? It's quiet, too. Feels like a Passat on the inside, in terms of NVH and materials. It's not fast, but it probably shaves off about 0.8 second to 60mph because it's lighter. In fact it's such a reasonable performer that I cannot with a straight face say that I need more power. But I'd lie, cheat, and steal to get a GT. -juice[/quote] Cheers! -Ian

Ahh! I want to drive one! :o

I can't explain my excitement.. and the fact that I won't have to wait 3 months like I did for my WRX.. that was a nightmare.

A-freaking-men, Franz! :D

Okay, the fact that those reviews come from enthusiasts like us makes them even more exciting, and make me even more excited to get my wagon. Kevin

[quote name='Rsholland']...and I think a 3.5 engine would be much appreciated.[/quote] ;) Wow, what exciting reading material indeed. So with some better shoes the GT ought to get down under 5.5 and 14 .... excellent, excellent, excellent. Now to get 30 grand ... hmm ... any ideas? Anyone need any debt consolidation? :D lol!

UGH! Why can't I be ready to get one now?! This is killing me, and none of you guys even have one yet (U.S. anyway).

[quote]The wagon feels no different, to be honest.[/quote] ....good news everyone! :D:D

There was a short review in the Drive section of the San Jose Mercury News. There's not that much substance, but it is generally positive. [url]http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/business/industries/automotive/8721065.htm?1c[/url]

Mommy, I want one!!

:lol::lol: i understand how you feel.. completely!

Subiegal: [url]http://www.subiegal.com/images/events/05subaru_legacygt/05subarulegacy.htm[/url]

The Car Connection: [url]http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7169[/url] Kevin

another good one, pretty sure he got the weight specs wrong. tho. good to hear more about how great this car is! :P My fav quotables: [all from non-partisans :P ) "...if you want something that will make you look forward to driving from here to there, the turbo is for you. I was afforded the opportunity to put the Legacy through its paces on a variety of straight roads, curvy and twisty mountain highways, various elevations and even some roads that were rain and snow-soaked. The Legacy barely noticed the difference." -Al Vinikour of thecarconnection.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Legacy GT offers a superb blend of ride comfort and handling acuity ... the car was so entertaining in the corners and on the racetrack that the Subaru staff practically had to drag us away from it." - Erin Riches of Edmunds ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "These same roads also high-light the GT's taut, European-like suspension (firm but not harsh) on the sometimes choppy and chewed-up pavement... It's a pleasure to roll up significant mileage as we hug the shoreline and slip through sleepy little villages. Subaru's Symmetrical All-Wheel Driving System provides surefooted grip no matter how hard the rain comes down or how severe the kink in the road is." -Brian Harper of the National Post ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Legacy 2.5 GT has a definite sport sedan stance and feel, with a quicker steering ratio, lowered suspension, 17-inch wheels with 215/45ZR17 all-season tires, and larger front brake rotors. The 2.5 GT is fun to drive aggressively and feels firmly planted to the road thanks to the larger rubber. The quick turning ratio and three-spoke MOMO steering wheel make the 2.5 GT feel nimble and quick, especially in tight corners. The turbo power and the broad torque curve add to the car's athletic nature, with plenty of punch always available." - Mike Meredith of MSN Autos ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Driving along the magnificent roads surrounding Lake Tahoe, we noticed Subarus of all varieties and vintages appearing as if on command. A command from where, we hadn’t a clue, though as the voice in our head piped up one last time, we think we figured it out: “Just drive,” it said." - Tom Trace of Autoweek ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "With this engine, coupled to a notchy but satisfying five-speed manual transmission, the Legacy GT is a rocket, with virtually no turbo lag when stepping smartly away from stoplights and massive mid-range urge during highway passing manoeuvres. So while the base-model car goes after typical mid-size Japanese cars, like Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords, the GT's performance pitches it into more premium territory — lower-end BMWs, Audis and Volvos, which it seriously outguns in performance, despite its smaller displacement and lower cylinder count. The engine's basic architecture is shared with the STi, but has different tuning, with the turbo pumping out 13.5 psi of boost rather than 14.5. And lag? What lag?" -Laurance Yap of the Toronto Star ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Driving the turbocharged Legacy GT on a mountain road brought out the racer in us, accelerating hard out of the corners, down the straightaways, braking hard for the next corner as we set up for the next apex. Throw in some rain and the Legacy GT is unbeatable by anything in its class." -Tom Lankard of the New Car Testdrive

If anybody gets Road&Track, there's another very positive writeup in the upcoming issue. A friend sent me a scan, but there was no way to get that email over here. Kevin

[quote name='gtguy']If anybody gets Road&Track, there's another very positive writeup in the upcoming issue. A friend sent me a scan, but there was no way to get that email over here. Kevin[/quote] Kevin Can you provide us with high-lights, 0 to 60, 1/4 mile, etc. Thanks, Rex02

[quote name='REX02'][quote name='gtguy']If anybody gets Road&Track, there's another very positive writeup in the upcoming issue. A friend sent me a scan, but there was no way to get that email over here. Kevin[/quote] Kevin Can you provide us with high-lights, 0 to 60, 1/4 mile, etc. Thanks, Rex02[/quote] It was a first drive, so there was no instrumented testing, but comments such as "one of the best-handling cars in its class" were being bandied about. The reviewer also mentioned sub-2500 rpm turbo lag, which is something that nobody else has yet mentioned, and that people over 6' tall would have issues with the back seats. He also said that even though the car he drove was AWD, it really felt like a well-balanced RWD car, which is very cool. There was minimal body roll, fit and finish were far beyond anything heretofore seen from Subaru, etc, etc...the usual accolades. :lol: BTW, subjective evaluations of performance and comfort matter more to me than 0-60 times, etc., particularly because life isn't a 1/4-mile strip. Life is the highway, merging, long drives and general living with a car. This is also why I like long-term reviews much more than reviews. The reviews of the SRT-4, STi or Evo, for example, would have you thinking that you should just run right out and buy one. But the long-term tests paint a very different picture. Kevin

Long term STi tests have been very complimentary iirc.

[quote name='3.75L H6']Long term STi tests have been very complimentary iirc.[/quote] They have been as regards performance, not daily liveability. You can see, for example, in reviews of the R32 GTI, how every reviewer so far has said essentially, "Sure, this car is slower by a bit than the Evo and STi, but it isn't a pain in the butt to live with every day, either. We'll take it." :lol: Kevin