A Hypothetical on this Sport Model still coming...

So lets say they're looking at a sport model still in the works, what would you like to see it have over the 2005 2.5GT turbo models? Would you rather see this as an option package, or full new model? If you had to ask me, I'd probably say optional Sport Package. The features I recommend could probably be available in a sport pack: -Stainless Brake Lines & STi pads (the brake size and config is great, just a little more assurance, brake feel, and safety is nice) -STi Sport Springs & possibly uprated sway bars (the rest of the suspension really sounds pretty well done for our roads) -STi Short-Throw Shifter std along with STi Lightweight Flywheel & Clutch (should a bit sportier and all help nicely) -Front LSD to go with center and rear (I'm told the front one makes the most difference, particularly in spirited driving) -A bit more spirited level of tune in the EJ257, a bit closer to the STi though still with good spool characteristics, probably some 25-50hp increase I would like to see the Prodrive adjustable damping setup an option for MY06 if it pans. It would also be nice to see the seats upgraded to something like these available in Japan (leather stay leather, and cloth upgraded to this fabric as well in total black)... [img]http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/parts/blbp_legacy/largeimage/3-2.jpg[/img] Also leave as options the 18" BBS and 17" Rays wheels. [img]http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/parts/blbp_legacy/largeimage/1-3.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/parts/blbp_legacy/largeimage/1-4.jpg[/img] I would be happy to pad my check an extra $2000-2500 for such a package installed at the factory in place of original components. As you can see I didn't even add a 6MT to that. The ratios in the 5MT are basically perfect for sport driving with a 500rpm extra rev limit. I think the 5MT would be nice for less rowing and it would be able to keep the weight and costs down for a sport package. This would make it available in the 2.5GT Limited with leather trim, and the 2.5GT standard with cloth. However, if they made it a full new model, we could see that new DCCD-less lightweight 6MT along with Brembos and large wheels to accomodate the Brembos. Personally I think the Brembos are overkill for the brakes we will be getting. For the most part, a good set of stainless lines and pads with the 4-wheel vented brakes (11.3" in rear and near Brembo size up front at 12.3" by over an inch wide) shouldn't really have fade problems with the heaviest of braking foot. It would save a LOT of money with only a marginal loss in braking performance as I see it. Plus, we would have an enormous range of wheel options w/o the Brembos. You could even run the stock GTs! Much easier and versatile IMO (what the Legacy line is all about.) We all know the points on the 5MT versus 6MT statement so not much to add here. I wouldn't mind the 5MT as long as it has nice short-throw, not the rally-height shifter stock, and it gets a bit smoother for shifting (I could forget an aftermarket shifter if they do it right.) A good 5MT with 270-280hp could be just as fast as an STi with it's 300hp and 6MT. Adding an upgraded flywheel and clutch help in their own rights, while the clutch could be left stock, additional power may not be the optimal thing though no way to prove either way at this point. The lightweight flywheel helps engine revs and performance overall, particularly for sporty driving, why I'd have this package. As for engine tuning, that is how I'd have it optimally, probably in the 280 or so range with the extra 500rpm limit of tune, closer to that of the STi than the FXT, but still very linnear and responsive. Something on the line of a VF34 for characteristics would be excellent, particularly if it was a ball-bearing unit like the 34, but as this is still speculation, we really don't fully know how the stock unit reacts and its capabilities. In a package of this stature, we'd probably lose the up-pipe cat, and recieve a little more free-flowing exhaust along with an upgraded ECU tune. I'd probably thumbs-up the dual-pipe exhaust, except the price appears to surpass $1000 just for the mufflers alone! Maybe they can have a cat-back made by Bosal like they have for the WRX which is available for around $400. :) I'd just love to see this an option pack over another full model. Its only mean't for those who really want to burn the rubber over status symbol and for those who realize it. I couldn't see a better value had. The Brembos, BBS wheels, and 6MT would just really bloat the pricetag and make an STi tag a requirement along with potentially not offering this to Wagons at the same time, also making the stable 10 full models if was offered in a wagon. 12 if they wanted a 3.0R model. That's just way too much in my book. The Legacy line is the bread and butter, lets keep it that way, and simplfied. Option pack with the extra goodies would be subtle yet ferocious.

Isn't that just a matter of semantics? Where any other company has an optional luxury/premium package, Subaru has a separate Limited model which accomplishes the same thing. It's 6 or a half dozen either way.

Personally, I think its a bit deeper. Looking at the legacy line over the last several years, the Legacy has had some 5-6 models on average (that includes BOTH sedan and wagon models.) The OB line has averaged closer to 8 or so though their friendly little map appeared like more or so it seemed on their site. What I am getting at is, we have 8- 2005 Legacymodels already between wagon and sedan. Lets say sometime in the near future they want to bring out an H6 model (which I think is a rather important point for the American market), they could be sitting at 10, if they wanted to bring out a superior performance Legacy, it might be 12! That's way too many in my book. Thus I raise the question: should a performance model if not full-on with Brembos and a hot-shot 6MT and the other parts that seriously upgrade the price and make the manufacturing a bit different than the std model, should it be a package that either 2.5GT or 2.5GT Limited buyers can choose from, or should it be an entirely new model? Looking at companies like BMW and the upper echelon automakers which this line seems ever closer compared to now, I see performance and luxury packages, and you can even get your BMW with Dinan parts as I'm told with a warranty when you pick it up. I think the way to drop some of the confusion about whats this, whats that is to simplify and make packages versus whole lines, but that's just my take. I think having the 2.5i, 2.5GT, and 3.0R with available premium pack for all, sport pack for the GT and possibly 3.0R for even better performance, and so on down the line is nice. Essentially 6 easy to choose from models. Simplify and option-out. Dealers would automatically pick the most wanted configs for inventory. I like conciseness and treeing out from there, but as I said, personal opinion. If it's a slight uptune from the factory, like the Spec B is in Japan, does it warrant a whole new model designation? :?: What are others's takes on this? :?:

As PP says it is all in the name. Personally if i have bought a car with all the trick sport bits - it's nice to put a name to it. The Impreza has a long history of RA models and the latest spec C designation.

6 or a half dozen. It's making a mountain out of a goose bump, but what else is there to talk about?

How's the weather in Panama?

Symantecs=marketing. Thanks guys for the excellent conversation. :roll:

Getting hot once again. I'm flying to Costa Rica in a few hours until Monday night, so the nice valley weather in the 70s will be much appreciated. So, what new with you? :lol:

[quote name='SUBE555']Symantecs=marketing. Thanks guys for the excellent conversation. :roll:[/quote] It's "semantics". ;) Marketing isn't just dealing in semantics though I see what you are saying that at times it is because it can be a matter of the spin you put on it. 6 or 1/2 dozen does the same thing. A 1/2 dozen makes you think of a two digit number (12 hopefully), so it can psychologically seem more. It's similar to pricing everything at $X.99 but for the intent to seen like a lower number. Fact is that Subaru doesn't seem to believe in option packages. Just look at the bazillion Outback "models" offered, or at least they are laid out to seem like different models. :roll: I personally find it more confusing, but it makes it seem like there is a greater variety. The precedent has already been started, and there is no reason to expect a change. This is the same as going to an ice cream store, and they say: We have 12 kinds of ice cream: chocolate in a cup chocolate in a sugar cone chocolate in a waffle cone chocolate in a cup with sprinkles chocolate in a sugar cone with sprinkles chocolate in a waffle cone with sprinkles 2 scoops of chocolate in a cup 2 scoops of chocolate in a sugar cone yadda yadda yadda A separate model conceivably makes it easier for that individual "model" to help move up more premium or sporty because it isn't associating itself as closely with the base model. The only for it to truly be a different model would really be to not use the Legacy name, but that won't happen. So it's not really a separate model, but it's not an option package to select either. Just like the ambiguous nature of who the true competition of the Legacy is, they are ambiguous as to whether they want these to be seen as separate models or just options. Is this the automotive equivilant to a gender bender?

The reason I brought up the topic originally was just contemplating if they intended to add an H6 model and a performance model to the Legacy lineup more than just the simplified groupings. Which looks cleaner in presentations: -Legacy 2.5i Sedan -Legacy 2.5i Wagon -Legacy 2.5i Limited Sedan -Legacy 2.5i Limited Wagon -Legacy 2.5GT Sedan -Legacy 2.5GT Wagon -Legacy 2.5GT Limited Sedan -Legacy 2.5GT Limited Wagon -Legacy 3.0R Sedan -Legacy 3.0R Wagon -Legacy 2.5GT STi Sedan -Legacy 2.5GT STi Wagon (assuming Premium Pack std feature on a 3.0R designated model) [b]OR[/b] -Legacy 2.5i Sedan -Legacy 2.5i Wagon -Legacy 2.5GT Sedan -Legacy 2.5GT Wagon -Legacy 3.0R Sedan -Legacy 3.0R Wagon (assuming Premium Pack available for both 2.5 models and a std feature of 3.0R model w/ the sport pack available on 2.5GT and 3.0R less any engine tune variation in the 3.0R) Now just think if a Coupe model is added to the line as well further making the selection bigger. That many models I think (6+2 for the latter stradegy, 12+4 possibly) would require the toned-down way to not look overcluttered. I guess its just semantecs, but I hope we could be able to pick our interior with an even more performance-minded model. The first lineup just looks way complicated if you ask me. In Japan, I believe it runs like the latter. I don't see anything about premium models, just premium options. Yes, I know they are 2 different markets, but what is so wrong with this approach or even discussing it? The current method works fine, but what if another 2 designations each of sedan and wagons get introduced? Would it then be a bit much with 4-6 Impreza's, 5 Foresters, 4-8 Outbacks and [b]12-16[/b] Legacys. Just a bit set out from the crowd if you ask me.

I don't really care overmuch for the specific nomenclature but I would like to see performance options available. I will try to address these specifically. 1) Brakes. It seems to me that the OE units will be fine. Of course I'd have to drive one to know for sure. Upgraded pads and lines at most would be required, I would think. However, there could be an optional, stand-alone, Brembo package. There is such a package available on the rather inexpensive Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V ($800 IIRC). 2) Suspension. Again, without having driven one it is hard to comment; but I think that this is certainly within the realm of possibility. There is already a precedent here with Subaru (like the SPT suspension for the WRX); but it would be nice to see it offered as original equipment to prevent having to buy the same parts twice. Something like the adjustable Prodrive suspension is likely overkill as a factory option. If the car really does well with enthusiasts maybe this could be an option down the road. I just don't see it happening, though. 3) Shifter/Clutch/Flywheel/Transmission. A short-throw shifter should definitely be made available, as in the WRX. I get nervous with lightened flywheels and high-performance cluthces. I could certainly do without either and I think it unlikely that those would be offered. That is something I'd leave entirely to the aftermarket if I were Subaru. Those components may make life harder on the transmission and engine. So, a somewhat lightened flyweel might make sense...but this is a street car, not a race car. With regard to the 5MT vs. 6MT debate, I would suggest that all Legacy GTs will come with a 6MT in the not too distant future. It is becoming commonplace in this market segment, and is even available in a number of less expensive cars (Spec V, Focus SVT, etc.) 4) Front LSD. Not entirely necessary. I mean, the EVO has an open front differential and gets along fine. This is also something I'd likely leave to the aftermarket. 5) Engine. I think that certainly there could be a package with an extra 25-30 hp available. It would be sort of like the BMW 330i Performance Package. More on this later. 6) Wheels/Tires. I definitely think that there should be a performance wheel/tire option. Something in a 225/40/18 even. Those 18" BBS wheels in anthracite are pretty nice. So, in summary what I would like see done is the offering on a Performance Package (or whatever name you wish to give it, Performance Group, Competition Group/Package, Ultrasport Package/Group, etc.) much like BMW has offered on their latest 330i. Have it come with proper sporting seats, a revised (though non-adjustable) suspension, modified ECU tuning with an extra 25 hp or so (though I think the base GT should come with 275 or so anyway), upgraded brake pads/lines (which wouldn't add hardly anything to the price), and higher performance wheels and tires (Z-rated at that, and offer summer tires and AS tires, like they do on the G35). The car should also come with a beefy close-ratio 6MT (non-DCCD, just not necessary) and maybe a lower FDR, for people that will gladly give up 1-2 mpg for extra performance (like me!). Some of the milage can be had back by having a tall sixth gear for highway cruising. Oh, it should have some sort of (subtle) aero kit as well. I believe this package would add susbstantial value and result in a sub-$3k pricetag. Comments?

For those that don't know, here is what is included in the BMW 330i Performance Package for $3900. Mind you, the 330i is already quite the sport sedan in its own right. Upgrades include: a completely revised suspension; 18" wheels (18x8 front, 18x8.5 rear) from the M3 including 225/40/18 front tires and 255/35/18 rear tires; and aerodynamics package, matte stainless steel dual exhaust pipes, high-gloss 'shadlowline' trimi, 8 way power front sport seats with 2-way manual adjustable headrests with thing support, 3-driver memory for exterior mirror and seat positions, automatic tilt-down for passenger's side-view mirror when the vehicle is shifted into reverse gear; Alcantara/cloth upholstery; anthracite interior headliner; 'M' 3 spoke Alcantara-wrapped multi-function sport steering wheel with fingertip cruise, audio and accessory phone controls; aluminum 'black cube' interior trim, revised engine management with 300 rpm higher redline and more aggresive camshafts (though hp rating only up 10, to 235, from the factory which doesn't seem right considering the performance increase); a short, sport gearshift, and a lower (numerically higher) final drive ratio. The top speed limiter is set at 155 now (vs. 130 IIRC) This was thought to be a way to pacify those that were unhappy about the M3 being only available in the 2-door body style now. This package is not availabe on the 2-door. Many owners that have owned both an E36 M3 (240 hp, btw) and a new 330i PP say that they believe the PP is the quicker car and handles just as well. It is also offered in at least one color, Imola Red, that is not available on the regular 330i. I've never been a big fan of red cars; but it is really nice in person. EDIT: here's a review for ya'all. [url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=6978&page_number=1[/url]

Thanks for the input Jason. As me and Jason were talking this over, I think the most similarity of this would be to a BMW 330i with Sport Package versus jumping outright to an M3. Plenty of extra sport for not a huge additional cost. On Jason's points: Brakes: I think for a Sport Pack and not the outright STi, the upgraded lines and pads should work wonders for feel additional to adding a wider range of operating temps. As for the Brembo deal: I think it would be more on the lines of $1500 or so for a full package considering Nissan only replaces the fronts. The stock brakes have some massive meat to them. The fronts are about 12.3" by over an inch wide! Suspension: If people want the ultimate no-holds barred Subaru, that's what the WRX STi is for. I think the suggested changes should make a significant difference in themselves with minimal change in ride height (.5-1" max) and make it much more compliant while still being rather civilized. We'll find out when it hits lots though how much it really could be improved without taking away its civility and turning it into the race car that the WRX STi is. Drivetrain: The short-throw pack is almost a necessary thing no matter how you shake in my book for a performance car, which this is supposed to be. I was in a WRX yersterday with the short-throw kit and I don't understand why that's not a standard feature. As for the flywheel and clutch, Jason you're probably right on tha fact, and lets hope the dual-mass flywheel lives up to expectations. The stock clutch would probably be a bit easier on the tranny also. For really sport driving, I still see the front LSD as a very prudent piece of gear. I'm told it makes a much larger difference than a rear LSD. I can vy for that on ice as well as AutoX courses. It would be nice for slick conditions additional to sporty drives. Can't ever put enough power to the ground. Power: At least we're definitely in agreement here. With the gear ratios chosen, those levels of power and the elevated redline (probably due to change in cams and ECU tune mostly) would be able to really push this baby a noticeable amount faster, particularly with the rest of the gear set up. Some 275-280hp with the extra 500rpm of room is really desired for some. Would also definitely help in the magazine numbers to help sales. Wheels/Tires: Something should be done to set this car apart, though it would be nice to be able to use stock 17's for winter wheels perhaps (that's one of the main reasons I'm not favorable towards the Brembos which is the same problem Nissan SE-R SpecV guys are having I was already notified of.) I think the Speb B wheels would go great, but a couple of options would be great. I'd even settle for a different style 17x7 or 17x7.5" wheel. The option of either a pure summer tire or good AS tire (like a WR-rated RE950) would be optimal. Other mfgs offer the options. After all, this isn't a stock piece anymore so going for something a bit better is what the new owner would really want? Misc Aesthetics: The revision to the exterior trim to reflect the Performance Pack could be as simple as bumper covers and side skirts. Additionally, I will like to sit in the seats, but if similar to current, something more compliant for the real essence of sport would be very much desired. I rode in a Passat last night that the seat just suck you in. That was what I'd be aiming for. And they were very comfortable. More comfortable than anything I've seen from Subaru thus far. I think the 6MT will come in due time, but I think it will make it to all the turbo models sooner than later for the increased efficiency yet constant plenty of close-ratio sportability in the first 1-4 or 1-5. For now though, those 5MT ratios are almost perfect! I don't think $2000-3000 extra over a $25,000 to 26,000 base GT ($1000 more for wagon) is asking too much. Figure the Limited is an extra $1000-1500 because it virtually adds just power leather seats. You can still be comfotably sitting for the price range of an STi with similar performance, and a definite step up in cabin atmosphere. Plus, an option pack would make it available with or without Limited features like the power leather seats for those who don't want it. Again, Comments? :D

Jason, Yes nice car indeed, BUT.... For $43,000 you can buy a brand new 2004 "Sportdesign" IS300 for about $30,000 flat with the 5 spd MT. Then you can call Toyomoto (amazing tuners with Toyota products...especially the Supra which has the same I6 3.0L as the IS300...iron block and bullet proof!) and have them install a stage I turbo system for about $5000 complete and out the door. Then you can drive out and destroy any 330i with the performance package and hang with a new M3. Now if you want to KILL a new M3, then you will have to spend about $7000 for the stage II set-up...and then you still have $6,000 left over to take pictures of all those depressed M3 losers! :cry: :lol:

[quote name='SUBE555'] I rode in a Passat last night that the seat just suck you in. That was what I'd be aiming for. And they were very comfortable. More comfortable than anything I've seen from Subaru thus far.[/quote] I've owned a Passat and a GTi. The seats are fabulous, no doubt about it. The newer GTi (I had a '98 VR6) seats (Recaro IIRC) are downright awesome. However, the new Legacy GT seats at least look the part. Guess we won't know til we plunk our buns down on one.

[quote name='AMT4SWA']Jason, Yes nice car indeed, BUT.... For $43,000 you can buy a brand new 2004 "Sportdesign" IS300 for about $30,000 flat with the 5 spd MT. Then you can call Toyomoto (amazing tuners with Toyota products...especially the Supra which has the same I6 3.0L as the IS300...iron block and bullet proof!) and have them install a stage I turbo system for about $5000 complete and out the door. Then you can drive out and destroy any 330i with the performance package and hang with a new M3. Now if you want to KILL a new M3, then you will have to spend about $7000 for the stage II set-up...and then you still have $6,000 left over to take pictures of all those depressed M3 losers! :cry: :lol:[/quote] My point was that for $3900 you get a bunch of great stuff. I wasn't comparing the 330i to other cars. It was more a demonstration of what kind of option package I'm talking about. Also, I'm talking about stock cars with intact warantees. I've driven a stock IS300. It's handling was close to a 3 series, but it felt like it was stuck in mud. They are that slow people. Hopefully, they get a major hp boost with a (much-needed) redesign. I've certainly heard rumors to that effect on the IS300 board I check out.

Jason, Yes I know you were just talking about the sport package, and the reason it is only $3900 is that BMW has the 330i marked way too high to begin with (I was at the BMW dealer in Austin yesterday driving the new 5 series...no 545's in stock because they are selling like hot cakes...and boy did that new interior look ugly!!!). The BMW product line is so overpriced in every category because people are willing to pay the price to drive a BMW. The stock IS300 is about 6.6 0 to 60 with the 5 pd MT (325i territory) and the basic 330i is at about 6.1 0 to 60 at a price difference of at least $6,000. The IS300 buyers are also getting the most reliable car in the market segment for a discount to the BMW (the BMW does come with a maintenance plan which is good). With the IS300 SRT intake and chip/remap you can hang (0 to 60 times even) with the basic 330i for about $500 to $600 out of pocket. I drove the 330i when I bought my IS300 and I could never justify spending all that extra money for the BMW. Subaru should just make a separate car for the performance version IMO. This would actually help for resale value when you are ready for some other car in the future. Higher model levels (like an STI version) always have better resale than a basic platform (like the GT) with a "Sports Pkg" added. Whenever Subaru does make a performance version of the new Legacy (and they will!), I want them to pull no punches and have no compromise (make a great 6 spd sub 5 second car with great suspension and steering feel, mounted on 18's and with included factory ground affects 8) ).

Well, I think we want the same thing out of the car. The resale value point is one I honestly had not thought about. Heavily optioned cars resell for only a tiny bit more than base models, that is true. I certainly agree about BMWs pricing. I think that the G35 presents the biggest reason that BMW needs to reconsider pricing. The G comes better equipped, and matches or exceeds the BMWs performance in every category for thousands less. But, like you said, if people keep paying MSRP for them then there is no reason for BMW to start pricing more aggressively. When I went to a BMW dealer I was amazed at how few cars (3-series included) had manual transmissions. I was like 'I thought this was supposed to be the ultimate driving machine?'. It appears that, while it is one hell of a car to drive, it is big with the status-symbol types. Oh well.

Ive said it before and I'll say it again. Subaru - the more options you offer me on the Legacy, the more money you'll take from me when I get my next car.

Is that because you'll want more? :)

How about gold hood ornaments and plaid velvet upholstery? :lol: Steve

Aren't you forgetting something? Disco ball? (Oh crap, shouldn't encourage OT in my own thread. :D)