What hardware is required to run E85 (4thGenTurbos 05-09)

I would like to put a solid thread together using members with solid information, regardless if they currently/previously use more that 10% ethanol in their LGT/Spec.B.

Questions to be answered might start with which stock fuel components need to be replaced and with what brand of aftermarket parts are for the most part guaranteed to be E85* compatible.

Next may be equally as important as the components: How much E85 can we use when filling the tank? (The full tank, 1 gallon, 2 gallons, 3 , 4...)

Tuning. Someone is going to chime in eventually and say that you must tune for the higher ethanol content.

Question is, Full tank of E85=probably need full tune, but a couple gallons mixed with some 89-93Octane=?? will the ECU "learn" a suitable map if one was to fill up the same way-everytime??

Finally, what about the person that CANNOT fuel up with any amount of E85 on a regular basis. The driver like me who, has for the first time, found access to the fuel locally; however, what seems like everywhere else they drive it is nowhere to be found....

Is there a button to press, a map to upload, another $$tune to get$$, what do you do when you just have to fill up with regular gas?

I live in Pittsburgh PA and recently we've had SpeedWay gas stations built in numerous locations, it has only been recently that they now offer E85 fuel. I decided to install a DW65 and DW850'z during my stage 2 to stage 3 build and I personally could benefit now(before completing my upgrades) with some insight as to what else, what precautions, what common overlooks could hold back a vehicle from using this fuel???

*really any fuel containing more than 10%(E20,E30,E85,etc...)

Regarding hardware, the 2 main parts required are upgraded injectors and fuel pump, which you already have. I suggest at least 1000cc injectors, but 850cc can work too depending on turbo choice. Just watch your injector duty cycles in any case - you don't want them to max out or you'll go lean. You can adjust your tune to taper boost (if you must).

Optional, but helpful is a FPCM/wiring upgrade to keep your fuel pump running at full potential.

Although this isn't hardware, the tuning portion of this is huge. I'm sure an expert tuner could set you up with a great e85 tune. I opted to do it myself with romraider/ecuflash based on experiences shared here and elsewhere. Getting a nice cold start is challenging - otherwise e85 is a really forgiving fuel.

For me, it's either a full e85 tune, or a 93 tune - I have no in-between. If you switch to an e85 tune with a little 93 left in the tank, it will simply run richer than it should, which is generally safe. Just don't bother optimizing your tune until you're running straight e85 or you'll just be wasting time.

Thanks, I have a Tomioka 18G and personally I would want my tune to be conservative. I am not looking for the highest numbers on the road, just simply strong reliable power that the family and I can drive around with for many years to come.

Also, does the factory center console Xknob still work with either of your tunes, if so, how?

Say you didn't have your laptop and had to fill up with 93 while tuned E85...outcome?

As for the fuel pump wiring, where can I find something like that??

Thanks in advance!

I would contact M_Sprank at Infamous, they usually can get you some pretty killer deals if you order packages like that. Another option as well is ordering the stuff through SPN Performance, it's a smaller company that I work for but if you want, PM me and we can get something worked out for you.

EIther way, E85 is liquid gold in my opinion there is almost no downside to it. good luck!

Here's a good thread about FPCM/wiring upgrade, which was done on a 2005, not sure if there would be differences on your 08.

Maybe others will chime in regarding switching back/forth between E85/93, but for now mine is very intentionally on E85. If I had to switch back to 93, I would need my laptop, and a near-empty tank.

I agree. Liquid gold. Did you know Henry Ford originally designed his engines to run on alcohol NOT oil?

It is big oil and trillionars that changed that. Imagine what commerce would be like if everyone could profit from some thing in some way...

I have little battery left on my tablet so essentially I'm replying thanks early, but I will check out the links and research them. From what I gather one would need to stick with the fuel that the current time is for, otherwise change the tune.

I wanted to also ask a question still regarding the "smart,sport,sport#" knob. Can this "knob" be what's the word, tuned, programmed,? to store say: smart=I don't know yet,,, Sport=93 Octane tune WITH the stage X custom dyno tuned tune,,, Sport#=E85 custom tune. ?????? Is this possible? Whoever understands what I mean, please chime in...

Basically, and w/o a laptop, one could chose a tune with the click of their wrist.

I agree. Liquid gold. Did you know Henry Ford originally designed his engines to run on alcohol NOT oil?

It is big oil and trillionars that changed that. Imagine what commerce would be like if everyone could profit from some thing in some way...

 

I have little battery left on my tablet so essentially I'm replying thanks early, but I will check out the links and research them. From what I gather one would need to stick with the fuel that the current time is for, otherwise change the tune.

 

I wanted to also ask a question still regarding the "smart,sport,sport#" knob. Can this "knob" be what's the word, tuned, programmed,? to store say: smart=I don't know yet,,, Sport=93 Octane tune WITH the stage X custom dyno tuned tune,,, Sport#=E85 custom tune. ?????? Is this possible? Whoever understands what I mean, please chime in...

Basically, and w/o a laptop, one could chose a tune with the click of their wrist.

No you can't do it that way. The I,S,S# aren't individual tunes.

However, if you have an AP you can get one tune for 93 and another one for e85. That way if you can't find e85 you can just quick reflash the 93 tune on so can fill up.

That's what I'm doing. Already have 2 maps started. Waiting for a few more things to come in to finalize everything.

StreetLegal thanks for the reply. That is what I mean, I would not only like to spread around knowledge but learn at the same time.

I like your idea about using the AP on the fly but what if......?(AP/cable not with you, breaks) can you or anyone for that matter elaborate on the " I, S, S# Knob " please?

I read the entire thread on the wiring upgrade. good read, massive work, would probably buy a prefab kit unless I wanted to spend freetime there. I would dont get me wrong, but i'm the guy who if I'm gonna do it, I do it right, correctly, and all the way throughout. stable voltage while very VERY good to have, will eat my time and I have other responsibilities right now; lucky my Spec.B gets a few hours here n there....

You need a pump and injectors and a tune. You can run up to 25% e85 mixed in 91/93 and the ecm will adjust. Not necessarily recommended as you wont see any power gains and your fuel economy will decrease. But it will reduce knock if you picked up some bad gas.

Flex Fuel is now available via EcuTeK and Cobb.

My memory is that one of the members around here did some studies mixing E85 and pump gas and found he had pretty good luck with knock suppression even at (please don't quote me on this) something like 58% EtOH.

However, for me, especially not always knowing whether my local station has E85 or something as low as E70, I'm also an all or nothing guy. Used to use a laptop to reflash but then changed to an AP for convenience.

I also do not recommend trying this at home, but because only one station in the greater Portland area has E85, I've gotten by with adding a gallon of 92 to my couple gallons of remaining E85 if I'm afraid of running out of gas on my way to the station (let's just say this has already happened twice so I've now learned my lesson). I've been very impressed with the ECUs ability to immediately adjust and haven't had any knocking or other issues as long as I baby it on the mix. YMMV.

Flex Fuel is now available via EcuTeK and Cobb.

^ I believe Mike already commented on how that is achievable. But yes a sensor to measure ethanol content would be needed. However, as of my most recent research, Cobb had not finalized an offering for this so that is news to me.

http://www.zeitronix.com/images/ECA/FlexSensorFlowThrough_250.gif

Its not through Cobb. We figured it out in house. But we have the kits available with free OTS maps for Cobb users now.

"e85" can be as little as 52% ethanol and as much as 82% by law. We have found a few local pumps putting out e90+ (WOOT!!!) Mixing anything more than 25% on a car not tuned for it is playing with fire. I blow up my own shiznitch so you dont have to. Do as I say, not as I do, LOL.

Its not through Cobb. We figured it out in house. But we have the kits available with free OTS maps for Cobb users now.

 

"e85" can be as little as 52% ethanol and as much as 82% by law. We have found a few local pumps putting out e90+ (WOOT!!!) Mixing anything more than 25% on a car not tuned for it is playing with fire. I blow up my own shiznitch so you dont have to. Do as I say, not as I do, LOL.

What is all included on the OTS map for it? Does the map just run with the stock fuel system?

Also, does that sensor then allow the map to automatically adjust all the parameters based off og the ethanol percentage it detects?

The sensor is just that, a sensor. It measures ethanol content and outputs a voltage. We have a device that interprets the voltage and sends a signal the ECM can use. We use OEM wiring (existing plug connection), no cutting/splicing or running cables through the firewall. Our device also contains a bluetooth chip and we have an android app. So, you can read your live ethanol content on your smart phone.

You will need aftermarket injectors and pump. We have OTS maps built for specific injector and pump set ups. The Cobb OTS map is used for pump gas (the tune has been modified for the larger fueling) and we have implemented adjustments based on fuel content. The map will "auto adjust" based on ethanol content.

This is a very basic explanation. I can only say so much as I must protect our investment. 2 engineers and 1 mechanic figured out in a few months what Cobb has yet to figure out. Flex Fuel is now avaialble for EcuTeK and Cobb users.

You can check out two of the new kits here:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Infamous-Performance/734986976553829?ref=hl

and here:

http://www.delicioustuning.com/flexfuelcobb

Its not through Cobb. We figured it out in house. But we have the kits available with free OTS maps for Cobb users now.

Ah, now that is innovation. Hopefully people are realizing that this is a pretty big deal.

The sensor is just that, a sensor. It measures ethanol content and outputs a voltage. We have a device that interprets the voltage and sends a signal the ECM can use. We use OEM wiring (existing plug connection), no cutting/splicing or running cables through the firewall. Our device also contains a bluetooth chip and we have an android app. So, you can read your live ethanol content on your smart phone.

 

You will need aftermarket injectors and pump. We have OTS maps built for specific injector and pump set ups. The Cobb OTS map is used for pump gas (the tune has been modified for the larger fueling) and we have implemented adjustments based on fuel content. The map will "auto adjust" based on ethanol content.

 

This is a very basic explanation. I can only say so much as I must protect our investment. 2 engineers and 1 mechanic figured out in a few months what Cobb has yet to figure out. Flex Fuel is now avaialble for EcuTeK and Cobb users.

 

You can check out two of the new kits here:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Infamous-Performance/734986976553829?ref=hl

 

and here:

http://www.delicioustuning.com/flexfuelcobb

You sir have a message

The sensor is just that, a sensor. It measures ethanol content and outputs a voltage. We have a device that interprets the voltage and sends a signal the ECM can use. We use OEM wiring (existing plug connection), no cutting/splicing or running cables through the firewall. Our device also contains a bluetooth chip and we have an android app. So, you can read your live ethanol content on your smart phone.

 

You will need aftermarket injectors and pump. We have OTS maps built for specific injector and pump set ups. The Cobb OTS map is used for pump gas (the tune has been modified for the larger fueling) and we have implemented adjustments based on fuel content. The map will "auto adjust" based on ethanol content.

 

This is a very basic explanation. I can only say so much as I must protect our investment. 2 engineers and 1 mechanic figured out in a few months what Cobb has yet to figure out. Flex Fuel is now avaialble for EcuTeK and Cobb users.

 

You can check out two of the new kits here:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Infamous-Performance/734986976553829?ref=hl

 

and here:

http://www.delicioustuning.com/flexfuelcobb

The delicious tuning page doesn't mention LGTs/OBXTs. Can you comment on the availability for us?

Really!

Hrmmm, well then... that changes a few things for me then...

Previously, I was thinking an E85 tune made more sense to me than a turbo upgrade as the next step. Stock turbo economy on 91, and (relatively) big power on E85. Then I read about the variability of the ratio of E85, and saw it as a bit risky. I love the Delicious flexfuel concept, but didn't see any fitments for LGT, so I thought, never mind, I'll just get a little bit bigger injectors and start saving for something 16-18g ish...

But hold the phone.

FlexFuel: I'd commute all week on 91, then on Friday swing by the E85 station on the way home for some weekend fun. Doesn't matter if I have 1/4 a tank or half a gallon of 91 left to get some big benefits, right?

If so... gonna need to sell the DW 740s I haven't installed... and get some 1000s. Is the DW 65c big enough?

Are there any flexfuel (E85 ratio sensing) threads on LGT that I've missed?

This is a game changer.

The ECM will auto adjust for the content of ethanol seen by the sensor. No map switching/flashing/etc. It works like an OEM FlexFuel vehicle.

DW65c is just fine.

Before buying injectors I need to verify with Bill which brand and size he has scaled for his OTS maps. In our initial testing and R&D we were using DW BoschEV14 1200cc.

I do not know of any e85 sensing threads on this forum. Afaik we are the first to release FlexFuel for Cobb and the first to release FlexFuel for this many different applications. We started with the BRZ/FRS (EcuTeK) then worked from there. Our first working Cobb application was an 05 WRX.

We believe we found the solution for the 2015 WRX via Cobb as well and will be testing our new set up for that car shortly.

The ECM will auto adjust for the content of ethanol seen by the sensor. No map switching/flashing/etc. It works like an OEM FlexFuel vehicle.

 

DW65c is just fine.

 

Before buying injectors I need to verify with Bill which brand and size he has scaled for his OTS maps. In our initial testing and R&D we were using DW BoschEV14 1200cc.

 

I do not know of any e85 sensing threads on this forum. Afaik we are the first to release FlexFuel for Cobb and the first to release FlexFuel for this many different applications. We started with the BRZ/FRS (EcuTeK) then worked from there. Our first working Cobb application was an 05 WRX.

 

We believe we found the solution for the 2015 WRX via Cobb as well and will be testing our new set up for that car shortly.

Just here to answer a couple questions for the Legacy crowd in regards to Flex Fuel for the Cobb AccessPorts.

As far as the Flex Fuel Kits for the Legacy / Outback we have the tunes for the Cobb OTS Stage Maps. What you will need to do in order to make this work is upgrade to at least DW1000cc Injectors and a DW300 pump or a DW65c if you so choose.

The Legacy / Outback Flex Fuel kits available will be complete plug and play kits, from the mounting bracket to hardware to wiring harness. Not cutting, splicing, running wires through the firewall, or any such thing. We do have to verify bracket fitment on the Legacy / Outback but besides that it is ready to be purchased and installed by Infamous Performance.

Cheers,

William Knose

Delicious Tuning