Dunlop Winter Sport 3D any good?

Originally Posted by dmp

^ The secret to traction on the ice is, there's no secrets. Chains or spikes FTW.

^ You won't get an argument from me, on that one :

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123392


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RE: Snobootz -

That's very neat...the pricing is up there, though. Might be worth it to keep in the trunk, just for true big emergencies, though.

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

..........But what I don't get is the 3Ds rather high ranking (correct me on this if I'm wrong, outahere , on ice, with the H-speed rated formulation, at least).

If that's the case, then I'd hate to be on ice, with any other "Performance Winter!"

But then again, this also goes to show just how variable ice can be, as a winter-surface.

Yep, relative to the other performance winters in the ADAC test, the 3D had the best ice traction score.

A few weeks ago I was going through a snow/ice covered traffic circle with my Blizzak LM25 performance winters, at 2000 rpm in 2nd gear, and the rear end was drifting out toward the curb. Part of that is because of the rear LSD, but these tires are disappointing on ice.

Folk may want to keep in mind the scores/reviews/times, etc they read about tires are only true for that test. Each road condition on each road at each particular time differs; that is to say, Tire X might not have done well in a test, but for the situation in which one finds themselves, it might be the best tool for the job - the opposite is true, too.

^ Completely true.

Each test is only a "snapshot" of the entire picture - as a result, the absolute test "ranking" is not as important as the nitty-gritty details of the comparison of how one tire did against another, in terms of individual breakdowns. But even there, one should still keep the above "snapshot" framework in-mind.

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Originally Posted by outahere

A few weeks ago I was going through a snow/ice covered traffic circle with my Blizzak LM25 performance winters, at 2000 rpm in 2nd gear, and the rear end was drifting out toward the curb. Part of that is because of the rear LSD, but these tires are disappointing on ice.

^ And in a throwback to summer tires - as well as the fact that, after what's likely a clutch that's been slipping for the past year, I'd finally gotten that addressed - I'd totally forgotten how easy it is to spin up all four of my 3Ds, in the first two gears, from an aggressive launch.

TSi+WRX, I read your response at NASIOC to Tirerack Luke about his statement "recent tests have prove that modern winter tires can out perform studded tires on the ice as well as on packed snow" and "Our testing yields different results as do many other tests. I am not saying the test you are basing your perceptions and comments on is wrong but, there are any variables in tire testing which do alter the results. information is good when it comes to tire testing but, no 1 test is the "gospel of where the rubber meets the road".

Luke has a promising career ahead of him as a politician

Based on a single test against a single studded tire, the ancient studded Winterforce tire, he concludes ""recent tests have prove that modern winter tires can out perform studded tires on the ice as well as on packed snow". And he ignores all the extensive test results over the last 5 years that demonstrate the opposite.

^ The problem is that his fingers are tied - his affiliations and interests are with TireRack, so he's bound to approach things via what will make their choices seem more appealing.

One of those previous posts "baited" the NordFrost3. I figured that by my reply to said post, I'd force his hand, and that's precisely what happened. He called me out, thinking that I didn't know better, and I played my endgame early, to prevent the thread from degrading (and also out of respect for Luke and TireRack).

Given that it is a TireRack sponsored Forum, and that's their thread, I've been trying to keep negativity to a minimum (I've contacted, privately, several of my locals, though, for whom I did not believe the automatic "Lake Effect = 'Studless Ice & Snow' tire x" was the appropriate response), but just I could not let that claim of "recent tests have prove that modern winter tires can out perform studded tires on the ice as well as on packed snow" slide, when there's so much other data to the contrary.

Still, to be absolutely fair, there is truth to the statement that each test is only valid within its own context, as highlighted by dmp - and thus, if he/TireRack wishes to base their recommendations based solely on their own testing results (however limited/biased a construct it might or might not be), I think that's a valid approach, regardless of what my personal thoughts/feelings are, to that.

I think that the smart readers/shoppers will understand the underlying problem of conflict-of-interest, as well as will realize, as now at least one major consumer-advocate tire-rating/ranking cite has cautioned, that some of TireRacks results flies in direct contrast with more than a few of other recognized and non-vested/conflicted tests, both from North American as well as international sources.

One thing that's definitely true in that thread is that the more discussion there is - and the more data there is - it's going to help the consumer make the better choice, and I think that what we've said here, in the last two posts, as well as what transpired on NASIOC there, with my posts/your info., proves this point.

Recent Tests have proven modern winter tires can out perform wooden wagon wheels, too.

^ Albeit square wagon wheels.

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

..........at least one major consumer-advocate tire-rating/ranking cite has cautioned, that some of TireRacks results flies in direct contrast with more than a few of other recognized and non-vested/conflicted tests, both from North American as well as international sources..............

Spill the beans! Are you referring to Consumer Reports?

Originally Posted by grim<sleeper>

+1
I run 205/50/17 Dunlop WinterSport 3D's on the stock rims for snowx and couldn't be happier with the predictability they give. All bets are off on straight ice, though.

I have the 3.0R limited, so my stock wheels are 18's. I just ordered the M3's in 215/50/17 with inexpensive Sports Edition CE wheels. I'm hopefully getting them installed Monday. I have a local Goodyear dealer down the street who was able to order everything, and I could check on tirerack to make sure they kept the price in line. He said he usually orders the Sports Edition CE wheels, which I thought looked pretty cool. Tirerack has a nice wheel view feature to show the wheels on the Legacy. My Legacy uses the sensors (not sure if all models have those), which I could do without, but I'm getting them so the light doesn't stay on all winter. My sensors on my stock wheels actually just went off, and tire pressure was maybe down to 28lbs on one wheel, so they are pretty sensitive. I'm hoping the snow stays away this weekend until my install...they were talking about a storm, but weather folks are usually wrong around here. I will let folks know if they run as well on my Legacy as they did on my STI.

Originally Posted by outahere

Spill the beans! Are you referring to Consumer Reports?

^ No, not CR by itself, although they were talking about CR as the North-American source that differed fro TireRack's data - I'm referring to the "Consumer Resarch" website, which points to this discrepancy, and itself seems to favor the results coming from our more snow-bound, and better-experienced, overseas brothers and sisters.

What I find rather disappointing is that TireRack, when "called," seems to either divert (latest) or retract their public statements (i.e. the Xi2 "recalculation"), rather than to provide reasoning which backs up their claims. As a scientist, if know that if I have data which I believe to be valid and correct, I'd fight to the skintooth to prove myself....

...but you aren't a scientist trying to sell a product. Businesses yield to avoid anything which might cost them a sale.

^ Exactly.

The best class I've ever taken was my 7th grade "Mass Media" class, taught by my Gym Coach.

It taught me to critically analyze mass-media, and truly opened my eyes as a consumer.

Might do the board a service if you were to make a thread about 'buyer beware' - fill it with hints and reminders about reading and listening to the claims of somebody with an agenda. To narrow the scope, perhaps a winter-tire buyer's guide? something like that? You seem to write well, and have a broad knowledge base on the subject.

^ I'm a far cry from a good writer. I'm flattered that you think I am, but it's far from true. My wife's actually got a degree (with honors) in writing, and she calls my writing "diarrhea from a keyboard." It's true.

Also, I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as you think I am - I'm merely able to remember the information that guys like outahere and others have posted, and managed to clobber them together in a semi-understandable way. I truly am not capable of holding my own, in a protracted and in-depth debate. I lack the depth/fund of knowledge required for such. Whereas those guys don't post much, I'm the postwhore who takes what they've posted and run with it, that's really all.

I've been contemplating making a "mini-FAQ" posting about speed-detection countermeasures, but even there, I still fear that my knowledge isn't complete enough.