Do Common Mods Negate Your Warranty?

I'm sure I'll get flamed hard for this question that has probably been asked and answered a hundred time before. But I looked through the titles of several pages of threads on the Warranty topic and did not see anything obvious. As a newbie Subie who is jazzed about the idea of more power for my LGT, I wanted to know what experience veterans have had on having your dealer walk away from warranty claims because it's obvious you've done mods. Mods that come to mind include [b]Uppipe, Downpipe, Cat-back exhaust, Turbo-back exhaust, Pink Springs, ECU Reflash.[/b] Will any or all of these mods kill your chances for making Warranty claims? I'm sure a common answer will be how "mod-friendly" your Subie dealer is. But I was looking for something a bit more concrete. Does Subie North America publish a "black list" of mods that we automatically void a warranty claim? If so, I guess most of us will have to wait until 36K miles passes by.

All removals of CATS are in violation of federal laws... but its hard to get caught unless the dealer sees that. It could be grounds for warrenty denial on any engine / exhaust work ECU reflash could be a biggie... Springs -- no.. unless the dealer really wants to be an ass about suspension work

I remember a story about a WRX wagon with the STi suspension package that got denied warranty work on his power window that went out- dealer claimed the rougher suspension was vibrating it loose.

[quote name='LandShark']Mods that come to mind include [b]Uppipe, Downpipe, Cat-back exhaust, Turbo-back exhaust, Pink Springs, ECU Reflash.[/b] [/QUOTE] Up-pipe. Yes Downpipe. Yes Cat-back. Depends on the dealer, most no. Turbo-back. Yes, usually. STi springs. No. ECU reflash. Oh, hell yeah! :lol: Think of it this way. If you change the fundamental way that your car operates, should that change be warrantied? Jedimaster cites a seemingly crazy example, with the suspension/radio thing, but dealers can deny warranties any way they see fit. The denied party can seek redress from Subaru of America, if they are so inclined. But in reality, though Magnuson-Moss protects modders in that it has to be demonstrated that the aftermarket part caused the failure in question, with many things, that is easy. If a clutch or transmission goes out because of an up-pipe, warranty can be denied because of the added power. Heck, even suspension work can be denied because of extra power, based on the fact that more power to the wheels, under hard acceleration, makes the car lift more, which places more stress on the struts and springs, which...you get it. It's why my belief when it comes to mods is fess up, and if there's a bill that's due, pay up. Anyone who can't deal with that should leave their car stock. Complicating matters is that dealers are all over the place on mods. Some are very mod friendly, witness Another B4's dealer, who treated his post-coilover alignment as a warranty claim. That's VERY cool. Other dealers won't even touch a car with coilovers on it. Unfortunately, there is no real, "official" policy from Subaru of America. Some dealers even sell modded cars themselves, which further complicates things. I would say, talk to your dealer, rather than doing the mod, then acting outraged when it isn't covered. Kevin

My understanding is that it's not up to them to prove that your mod did "X" to your car, but that it's up to you to prove that your mod did [i]not[/i] do "X" to your car...

Oh, no - the burden of proof is on the dealership/manufacturer. They frequently try to act like it's your problem. If they pull it with me, they'll get to meet my lawyers that afternon. The warranty isn't something that's treated as a whole. The only thing legally jeopardized by a mod is the component(s) involved in the mod. If I did all the exhaust mods and kept getting a CE light as a result, it isn't their job to fix it. If I install a giant turbo and the dome light quits working, they'd better be in there fixing it! Install exhaust and the radiator leaks? They'd better be working on it. It's the people who blow up a car, return it to all stock, and then try to get a new engine under warranty that cause all the problems to start with. If you break something be man enough (or woman enough) to pay for it yourself! Mitsubishi was caught trolling the 3si.org website and making a database of owners, locations, and their mods so they could deny future warranty claims. This was further proven when they accidentally leaked a partial list to one of the members. Mitsubishi also went to drag strips and documented any Evo's that were racing, making note of their VINs and sometimes snapping a pic showing the license plate. Since we already know Subaru has been reading this site, I would like to mention to them that I have insurance that covers any and all legal expenses so if I have any warranty problems due to mods I mention on this site, it will end up in court very quickly. I expect Subaru to live up to their responsibilities and if I break something that's my fault I won't try to stick Subaru with the repair costs.

Dickin with the ECU is probably the easiest way for them to void your warranty. Thats if you get caught...:lol: Get sneaky if you have to. :p

From a previous post here: [quote]The fact is that once you modify your car in any way (and I've known people who have had problems just because they installed high performance tires), you open the door to a dispute, which is never pleasant. No matter what the laws are and no matter how "freindly" you dealer is, when it hits the fan you never know what is going to happen. Some people have highly modified cars repaired with no questions asked and some run into a wall with mvery minor mods. Even people with completely stock cars have problems from time to time based on the perception that the caar was "abused".[/quote] I'd love to there what kind of insurance you can buy that will pay for litigation to enforce the warranty.

We can all talk about what the Magnuson-Moss Act says, and who has the burden of proof, and whether your mod actually caused "X," but this theoretical discussion ignores what happens in reality. If your dealer does not want to make a repair under warranty, and your car has been modified, be prepared to either pay for the repair yourself or endure a long and nasty fight. Fact is, the dealer holds almost all the cards on this one. The consumer does have rights under the law, but the problem is, how do you enforce those rights? Basically, you need to be prepared to take your dealer to court to enforce your rights. But think about the practical issues: 1) do you have an attorney on retainer? The dealer will, and their attorney will have defended these types of cases before; 2) do you have an expert witness ready to disprove the dealer's claims, and if so, are you prepared to pay them? The dealer certainly will; 3) can you afford to be without your car (or to pay for the repairs yourself) while you wait for a court date and a decision? The dealer can easily afford to drag this process out and will do so as long as possible. Finally, do you have the emotional stamina to deal with all of this? If you are the type of person who is argumentative by nature and lives for controversy, you might very well enjoy this whole process, but the rest of us... If you want to mod, go ahead and do it. Its your car and you should do what makes you happy. But mod with the knowledge that doing so will make it very difficult, if not impossible, to get extensive warranty work done.

[quote name='John M'] Mitsubishi was caught trolling the 3si.org website and making a database of owners, locations, and their mods so they could deny future warranty claims. This was further proven when they accidentally leaked a partial list to one of the members. Mitsubishi also went to drag strips and documented any Evo's that were racing, making note of their VINs and sometimes snapping a pic showing the license plate. [/QUOTE] Word on one of the other Subaru Forums was that local Subaru dealers were patroling the local drag-strips & doing the same thing. I cannot see how this can really hold up in court, but this is a little scary.

[quote name='gtguy']Up-pipe. Yes Downpipe. Yes Cat-back. Depends on the dealer, most no. Turbo-back. Yes, usually. STi springs. No. ECU reflash. Oh, hell yeah! :lol: Think of it this way. If you change the fundamental way that your car operates, should that change be warrantied? Jedimaster cites a seemingly crazy example, with the suspension/radio thing, but dealers can deny warranties any way they see fit. The denied party can seek redress from Subaru of America, if they are so inclined. But in reality, though Magnuson-Moss protects modders in that it has to be demonstrated that the aftermarket part caused the failure in question, with many things, that is easy. If a clutch or transmission goes out because of an up-pipe, warranty can be denied because of the added power. Heck, even suspension work can be denied because of extra power, based on the fact that more power to the wheels, under hard acceleration, makes the car lift more, which places more stress on the struts and springs, which...you get it. It's why my belief when it comes to mods is fess up, and if there's a bill that's due, pay up. Anyone who can't deal with that should leave their car stock. Complicating matters is that dealers are all over the place on mods. Some are very mod friendly, witness Another B4's dealer, who treated his post-coilover alignment as a warranty claim. That's VERY cool. Other dealers won't even touch a car with coilovers on it. Unfortunately, there is no real, "official" policy from Subaru of America. Some dealers even sell modded cars themselves, which further complicates things. I would say, talk to your dealer, rather than doing the mod, then acting outraged when it isn't covered. Kevin[/QUOTE] Yes, they warrentied my alighnment and set a custom camber setting to boot. I told them about my coilovers and they said they would even check the install to make sure things are looking good. They drove the car and said it handeld great. My dealer is extreamly cool, and I have brought them business and this is my second car through them. So, it also helps to have a relationship with them. Now, I have a good relationship with my dealer. Will I stick them with the bill if I messed up my car myself..NO. I will own up and tell them. But, my coilovers are about the most intrusive thing I will do to it. Period. I took that into consideration when I did it. I am lucky to be in a good financial situation where I can absorb the cost of the damage to my car that mods may cause. Not every one is in that situation. But, I am also choosing things to do to it that are releatively harmeless. And I would advice all to do the same. B4

IT's been a few years I know... but what about today... My Subaru delaer has the Cobb AP (ECU REFLASH DEVICE) on display under the parts counter.

 

Could they void my warranty for using a product they stock on the shelf?

 

Same question for the COBB uppipe and other exhaust components they have on the wall.

IT's been a few years I know... but what about today... My Subaru delaer has the Cobb AP (ECU REFLASH DEVICE) on display under the parts counter.

 

Could they void my warranty for using a product they stock on the shelf?

 

Same question for the COBB uppipe and other exhaust components they have on the wall.

 

A few years?

 

SOA are the only ones that can deny a warranty claim due to mods.

 

Just because the parts dept sells it, doesn't mean the Service Dept or SOA should cover the repairs for you if that part caused the failure. You can buy parts for your car that can legally be sold but are illegal to have on the vehicle.

What is so funny...

 

 

the last post was from 2004... so now here I am bringing it back up in 2009.

 

I guess I will laugh too :lol:

 

But I laughed harder because there are three of them....

 

 

anyways... back when I did my stage 2 in 2006 the dealer didn't carry those components....

 

NOW in 2009 they DO!

 

My point is... the dealer would be insane to tell me that the COBB AP or my DOWN PIPE caused a failure when they sell and install those components themselves.

 

I know you work at a dealer and I hear what you are saying about denying the warranty. But the dealer doesn't need to tell SOA the car has modifications. It really is up to the dealer in my opinion on whether a car is covered or denied. (At least initially.)

 

SOA doesn't send a rep out to every dealer when a warranty claim is filed???? right?

 

Now that I think about it... I did have a recent failure that was probably DUE to the COBB DOWNPIPE.

 

I had a CV Boot crack due to high temps and proximity to the downpipe.

 

But they didn't even ask about the DP

 

 

 

 

 

 

A few years?

 

SOA are the only ones that can deny a warranty claim due to mods.

 

Just because the parts dept sells it, doesn't mean the Service Dept or SOA should cover the repairs for you if that part caused the failure. You can buy parts for your car that can legally be sold but are illegal to have on the vehicle.

What is so funny...

 

 

the last post was from 2004... so now here I am bringing it back up in 2009.

 

I guess I will laugh too :lol:

 

But I laughed harder because there are three of them....

I considered a few years like 2, not 4

 

 

My point is... the dealer would be insane to tell me that the COBB AP or my DOWN PIPE caused a failure when they sell and install those components themselves.

Not if they put a disclaimer in the repair order stating that. Just because they install a performance part doesn't mean it should be warrantied if it causes a failure. I install performance parts very often and I also tell the customer that disclaimer.

Subaru doesn't care what performance parts a dealer sells and/or installs. They do care that they are paying for a legitimate warranty claim.

 

I know you work at a dealer and I hear what you are saying about denying the warranty. But the dealer doesn't need to tell SOA the car has modifications. It really is up to the dealer in my opinion on whether a car is covered or denied. (At least initially.)

 

SOA doesn't send a rep out to every dealer when a warranty claim is filed???? right?

I can't say what each dealership does. What we do myself and my 3 techs, is we diagnose the problem. If we find the performance parts did not cause the failure, it gets covered. If we find that they could or did cause a failure, then I call SOA. Once we tell SOA, the ball is in their court, not ours. Actually the dealer does need to tell because there is also a form we fill out. Also if you give that power to every dealer, they will be denying your claims just because they see mods.

Sometimes we are required to take pictures and submit documentation, other times they come out to the dealership.

 

Now that I think about it... I did have a recent failure that was probably DUE to the COBB DOWNPIPE.

 

I had a CV Boot crack due to high temps and proximity to the downpipe.

 

But they didn't even ask about the DP

That boot will crack regardless because all FWD and AWD vehicles will have front CV boots crack and split. Subaru's are more frequent due to the passenger side exhaust being right over the boot.

I might have a warranty claim, I hear a high pitch noise on the front driver side when I am cruising 30mph+ and it dies down at a stop. And you can really hear it if you are next to a car or a wall. I know it is not the turbo. I searched the forum for this problem and it was the wheel bearing that was causing the high pitch noise according to the post that I have read.

 

my question is, can I bring it to any subaru dealer to have it checked, and if ever there is a warranty claim? or do I have to go to where I bought the car?

 

Also, I hear a loud noise when braking. I don't think a rotor resurfacing included in the warranty? is it? I have a 08 LGT 6600+ miles.

so weve determined that claims are up in the air and dependent on dealer then? i was hoping to use h&r sports and possibly some 10-15mm spacers on my 09. but if its going to void the warranty i guess ill have to live with the 4x4 status, lol.

im in the process of fighting a warranty denial. im going to be very general in my explanation since subaru has trolls on here.

 

exhaust and intake modifications on car

spun rod bearing in cylinder 4

dealer was going to honor the warranty i still have (at 42xxx on vehicle w/ 18000 to go)

rep showed up at dealer, saw cat back exhaust and immediately denied claim

saw other mods being stored in trunk to keep together and fired tech for "hiding them from him"

claim denied, i have to pay full price

1 week later tech rehired, i am now getting 10% coverage

call SOA back argue more get 50% coverage costing me $2400 for new block, not bad considering im not paying it

SOA tells me i also have to take car to stock

 

now tell me this? how can you directly determine an exhaust setup caused me to throw my rod bearings? rep also told me that there are signs of the engine running lean... show me, he cant...then prove it, "i dont need to, you dont have a cat" lie, if you knew what youre looking at its right in front of you. you dont have 2 cats, it passed emissions testing with flying colors, no CE or other signals. so tell me know SOA the burden of proof is in your lap. wheres the evidence? suck my balls

All the folks who modify their cars and then have warranty claims to fix problems that they created just make the cost of the cars more for everyone else. It's a shame folks don't take personal responsibility for their actions.

 

Personally, I keep my cars stock til the warranty is out or I accept the fact that I will have to pay for repairs on my own.

 

-mike

 

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you say that, then tell me how a turbo back exhaust spun a rod bearing? im not taking responsibility for an issue that has been documented more than a few times on stock cars

Playing devils advocate here...

 

A Turboback increases power output of the engine. The car has been tested as stock and warrantied in stock form. This increase in power could have caused the rod bearing to go. It's different than say denying a claim for say a strut if the car has aftermarket stereo in it.

 

-mike

 

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i know what youre saying but, if you really think about it, its a far stretch man. that engine was tested with more power than what it comes with in stock form. add the fact that its anything less than a rare issue

A downpipe will definitely make things harder for you. A catback is no issue. No modification to the factory emissions control systems and Subaru did sell a 3" catback through SPT.

ESX had a Subaru's that were sold through the dealers that were warrantied.

ESX had a Subaru's that were sold through the dealers that were warrantied.

 

They actually weren't fully warrantied. They were warrantied by certain dealers who billed ESX back for them. There aren't a whole lot of these cars out there either.

 

-mike

 

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