Cobb Accessport Concern

I just installed my Cobb accessport on my 2005.5 lgt and as i was backing into my parkspot at work and as i locked my steering wheel the car died. I unpluged the AP and the car started and i parked it. I had driven for about 20 minutes prior with no issues. My thought is that i accidently pulled the AP out slightly when i turned the wheel. If that isnt what did it, what else could it be. My car is bone stock otherwise with about 80000km on it.

Thanks for any help.

 

I took the car out for a second time and it died when i went in reverse, is this a bug with the accessport

You do not need to leave the AccessPORT plugged in for the tune to stay on the ECU. The AccessPORT writes the map directly to the ECU and it will stay there even if the AccessPORT is unplugged or the ECU is reset. The car will operate just like it did stock, just with nice bump in power!

 

Travis

COBB Tuning

Im aware of that, but would pulling it from ob port while running cause the car to shut off like it did, or is that more of a fluke.

Completely coincidental. The AccessPORT unit itself does not do anything to actively control engine function so if you unplug it, it won't shut the engine off.

 

Travis

COBB Tuning

thanks for your help i appreciate it, so far i am enjoying the added power. On a different note, will the cobb sf intake require a tune or will it work with the accessport. I know that cobb claims that no intakes should be used but im just wondering as its is a intake you produce.

You said you "just installed" the AccessPORT.

 

If what you mean, in-part, is that you just flashed the ECU to Cobb's maps, the reason why your vehicle "died" is because the car's still trying to re-learn some of its basic operating parameters, and during that time, it may or may not "catch" itself before it "dies," typically at or close to idle conditions, varying with things like weather, accessory usage, etc.

 

This is completely normal behavior, as-is that "delayed" starting/prolonged-cranking that comes right after such a reflash.

 

Basically, any time that you perform an ECU reset (or the ECU having lost power: i.e. pulling the battery negative and pumping the brakes until the brake-lights no longer turn-on to discharge the residual electrical charge) - which includes when you reflash the ECU with a different base map - this will happen, and it's completely normal and to be expected.

 

As your car re-learns the basic parameters, among other things, the idle will again smooth-out.

ya thanks i started to kinda assume that as i took it out for a drive today and saw no problems at all, this thread can end now

Question; if I take the vehicle to the dealer can I flash to stock settings with the AP?

 

Thanks in advance,

Buzz

^ You should actually unmarry your AP, just to be safe. That will prevent against the unlikely yet possible scenario of some over-enthusiastic tech. potentially reflashing your married ECU.

 

However, if you're thinking that you can somehow reflash "to-stock" so that Subaru won't know you've ever had a non-factory tune on your vehicle? Forget it - that's just not possible: even if you reflash-"to-stock" or unmarry the AP, there will still *ALWAYS* be tell-tale evidence that the ECU had, at some point, been reflashed.

 

This is the a very recent thread which directly referenced this concern:

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/early-engine-failure-08-2-5ti-129284.html

 

Start on page 5, post number 64.

^ You should actually unmarry your AP, just to be safe. That will prevent against the unlikely yet possible scenario of some over-enthusiastic tech. potentially reflashing your married ECU.

 

However, if you're thinking that you can somehow reflash "to-stock" so that Subaru won't know you've ever had a non-factory tune on your vehicle? Forget it - that's just not possible: even if you reflash-"to-stock" or unmarry the AP, there will still *ALWAYS* be tell-tale evidence that the ECU had, at some point, been reflashed.

 

This is the a very recent thread which directly referenced this concern:

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/early-engine-failure-08-2-5ti-129284.html

 

Start on page 5, post number 64.

 

We have never seen a dealer be able to know if an AccessPORT is installed after it has been uninstalled. There are no "flash counters" or otherwise indicators that a flash has been performed in the ECU once you return it to stock. Once you uninstall the AccessPORT, your ECU is returned to a 100% stock, OEM configuration.

 

Travis

COBB Tuning

We have never seen a dealer be able to know if an AccessPORT is installed after it has been uninstalled. There are no "flash counters" or otherwise indicators that a flash has been performed in the ECU once you return it to stock. Once you uninstall the AccessPORT, your ECU is returned to a 100% stock, OEM configuration.

 

Travis

COBB Tuning

 

Please further explain, because if what you said is true, that there's absolutely no way that Subaru (not just the dealer) can know that the ECU's been reflashed, and I'm getting an AP for the wife's leased '09 FXT, right now......

 

My understanding is that, simply, most technicians at the local dealership won't care/look deep enough within the SSM3 parameters, as whitetiger expounded upon, to give the AccessPORT (or otherwise reflashed) user any grief - but that it's still a good idea, nevertheless, to unmarry the AP so that it doesn't get overwritten (but if it is locked, per Leonardo's post http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/told-dealer-139313.html?t=139313&highlight=cobb , then that should hopefully prevent against that problem ).

 

However, regardless of that, Subaru/SSM3 will still be able to see that something isn't right, in terms of the ECU's checksum (Calibration Verification Number) - and that this will be a problem, if there's ever a more than minor powertrain related warranty claim:

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/subaru-select-monitor-3-test-accessport-finally-37498.html

- specifically, jon [in CT]'s posts, on page 4, number 54, and page 5, number 65.

 

And also, even more specifically, from Dan, on SubuarForester.org :

 

Greetings to all.

 

Allbread- As of now there is now there is no such thing as a flash counter nor flash limit in the Subaru ECU's. Our bench ECU's have been flashed countless times and still going strong.

 

When you install a AccessPort on the ECU it will download the Stock mapping and save it on the unit. That map is not accessible to anyone and it's stored away until you "Uninstall" the AP from the vehicle. Once uninstalled the ECU goes completely back to stock; and yes technically there's a way for Subaru to detect that any aftermarket flash has happened, although for standard warranty work they wouldn't go through that much trouble.

 

Cheers

[ REF: http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f95/protune-warranty-53239/index2.html ]

 

:confused:

 

That comes directly from Dan (highlight added for emphasis) - and by the date of the posting, should refer specifically to the V2 AP.

 

Please clarify.....

 

- or is what you said above specific only to a dealer level interaction: but that still, Subaru can/will know?

I will talk to Dan on this matter, but it has never been proven that the dealership can detect that an AccessPORT has ever been installed. The checksums, as you point out, will be 100% back to stock once the AccessPORT is uninstalled. There is no way for the ECU to track if it has been flashed etc. In addition, we find that most dealerships are more or less open to mild modifications. Your best bet is to talk to the service manager at your dealership to see what they consider to be a warranty-voiding offense.

 

That said, uninstalling your AccessPORT before any dealer visit will ensure that they are left in the dark as it were. There is a lot of rumor about this and we appreciate that you want to be certain that you will not be putting your warranty and your vehicle at risk, but like I said, we have never seen a previous flash be detected by a dealership technician plugging in to the car and saying "AH HA!"

 

If you have any concerns or questions you can contact us at 801-713-0035 or email us at tech@cobbtuning.com.

 

Travis

COBB Tuning

^ Thanks, Travis.

 

Please do post-back when y'all have a reconciled official and final/definitive stance. Like you said, there's a lot of rumor and misinformation floating around out there, and this has long been one of them.

 

A part of this, certainly, is dealer/service-level. But I truly think that the more important component is what can/cannot be "seen" by Subaru.

 

Basically, like whitetiger was able to prove in the SSM3 thread, the fact that the ECU has been reflashed should not be something that's outright obvious to any service technician, even upon SSM3 connection, provided that the ECU hasn't somehow been "locked" and access forbidden. So in terms of a routine oil-change or another small service, where there's little to no chance that any in-depth probing of the ECU were to occur, things should be all-peachy.

 

But what happens when Subaru looks for a tell-tale?

 

I can illustrate this story best by presenting my wife's leased '09 FXT as a theoretical case.

 

I'd love to "go Stage I" with the vehicle. I'm not looking for mad power gains, but the increased driveability as well as the added grunt certainly would be welcome, as would be the sheer usefulness of the AccessPORT as a multi-meter. My dealership, as you'll see below, is among the more mod-friendly, so I doubt that they'd have much problems with a "Stage I" vehicle.

 

But what happens when we turn the vehicle in, off-lease?

 

What we know in the community is that Subaru is rather uptight about ECU reflashes - look at what happened to viper8315 here: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/early-engine-failure-08-2-5ti-129284p5.html - a transposition of just two critical digits on a DEALER REFLASH as a part of a previous warranty/repair-related service of the vehicle, an honest mistake by his dealership staff, blossomed into ugliness - so this is crucial to many of us.

 

It's not that we (speaking as a community) wish to defraud the dealership or Subaru. I, for one, am among those who've put their money where their mouth is: I have two services for which even the dealership's Service Manager asked if I wanted to claim warranty - and on both, I elected to pay out-of-pocket, for I deemed the troubled components casualties of the power upgrades I chose to have installed. Rather, it is truly more to prevent trouble (i.e. avoid hassle) by being proactive.

 

Again, thanks! I eagerly await word!

*bump*

 

Wondering where this will net out....

I think the terminology about "unmarrying" the AP is confusing. The AP terminology is "Uninstall". I have been successfully switching between my 2 LGTs to tune Stage 2 for both cars with one AP - by "uninstalling" between vehicles.

/\/\ike

I think the terminology about "unmarrying" the AP is confusing. The AP terminology is "Uninstall". I have been successfully switching between my 2 LGTs to tune Stage 2 for both cars with one AP - by "uninstalling" between vehicles.

/\/\ike

 

^ ??? I thought the AP could only be registered to one ECU per "marriage?"

 

You're running two LGTs, two separate vehicles, both simultaneously flashed to "Stage II," with only one AccessPORT?

 

Or do you mean that you "install/marry" it to one vehicle, run"Stage II," then "uninstall/divorce" it from that vehicle (which has now "returned to stock"), and can then "install/marry" it to the other?

 

Of-course the latter would work, but the former?

The correct terminology is indeed "install" and "uninstall". I think what HDTurbo is saying is he just switches the unit back and forth depending on the car he is driving? The AccessPORT will only work on one vehicle at a time, so if you uninstall the AccessPORT off of one vehicle, the ECU is returned to 100% stock. The AccessPORT cannot be installed on two cars at once.

 

Travis

COBB Tuning

Thanks, Travis. That is my process. I have gotten some decent exercise standing on my head under the dash to "Please connect the green Test Mode Connectors". I don't drive the car without the appropriate Stage 2 map installed. I'm almost done Infamous tuning and while it would be nice to have an AP for each car, I've gotten used to the swapping process and am careful to double check map selections. The AP makes it safe and easy to swap (unsolicited compliment;)). I make sure the battery charger is on if either car has been 'dormant' for a while...and it only takes 10-15 minutes or so to Uninstall/Install. And "marriage" is not good nomenclature (or luck) for automotive enthusiasm.

^ Ah, now that makes more sense.

We have never seen a dealer be able to know if an AccessPORT is installed after it has been uninstalled. There are no "flash counters" or otherwise indicators that a flash has been performed in the ECU once you return it to stock. Once you uninstall the AccessPORT, your ECU is returned to a 100% stock, OEM configuration.

 

Travis

COBB Tuning

 

I disagree. It is pretty easy to tell if a V1 accessport has been used. All you need to do is look at the cal ID. By now most 05 cars which were only every stock would have been reflashed by the dealer with a later rom (probably revision 521 or 522). If you use a V1 accessport and unmarry it, the ECU may have a OEM image on it, but it will be revision 510. Also, most of the ECUs that were replaced because of a toasted low side driver for the cooling fan relay came with a newer image. All the dealer has to do is check their records to see that the car should have a newer rom and see that there is a 510 image on it to know that someone else reflashed the car.

@Travis:

 

How "accurate" is the virtual Dyno on the AP? My Stage 2 results seem remarkably high, despite how it was tuned and how strong it "feels"...

I disagree. It is pretty easy to tell if a V1 accessport has been used......

 

^ Agreed with V1 -

 

But what about the V2's specific "Return to Stock" feature?

 

That's where there seems to be conflicting claims, and where the discussion was headed.

 

We've got Dan saying that there's never a completely-without-a-trace reflash, which is what's thought to be true by the SSM3 exploration that whitetiger undertook and jon in [CT] supports - which is in-turn supported by what viper8315's rather horrible and trying experience with SoA would also seem to suggest.

 

But at the same time, Travis says that there's absolutely no traces to be found, and Cobb's various FAQs and other "owner's manual" type publications for the V2 AccessPORT seem to suggest the same.

 

So, what is the true official line? Why is the advice not consistent and reconciled within even the Cobb staff?

 

And if I reflash with the AccessPORT just to "Stage I," then return-to-stock and turn the car back in to Subaru at the end of my lease, and they're somehow able to detect that the car has been non-Subaru reflashed (i.e. from the AccessPORT), what kind of restitution will Cobb be able to offer to rectify the issue? will they buy-out the vehicle, based on what Travis said here, that the ECU should have been, and I again quote "returned to a 100% stock, OEM configuration"? or am I left on my own to suffer whatever consequences there may be, because the AccessPORT is a "use at your risk" aftermarket device?

I talked to our head Subaru ECU engineer this morning. As far as all current models, there are no flash counters or other methods that we know of currently, that could be used to detect a non-factory reflash had been done once the car is returned to stock. We can only comment on how our current hardware works and cannot make a blanket statement in regards to old hardware or other reflashes or products.

 

This is the case for all Subaru models that we currently support. I talked with Dan this morning and we are all on the same page on this issue. Now when it comes to issues like this, it behooves us to never say never, however, we have to this date not heard of an uninstalled AccessPORT being detected after the fact. The only times I have heard of dealers being able to "detect a flash" is by doing some snooping in the car for other evidence like, leaving the AccessPORT in your glove box, or other such smoking guns.

 

Still, we suggest you talk with your service manager and see how they feel about these kinds of issues. Remember, Subaru is the company that used to give out SCCA memberships with new WRX and STI purchases!

 

Travis

COBB Tuning

I talked to our head Subaru ECU engineer this morning. As far as all current models, there are no flash counters or other methods that we know of currently, that could be used to detect a non-factory reflash had been done once the car is returned to stock. We can only comment on how our current hardware works and cannot make a blanket statement in regards to old hardware or other reflashes or products.

 

This is the case for all Subaru models that we currently support. I talked with Dan this morning and we are all on the same page on this issue. Now when it comes to issues like this, it behooves us to never say never, however, we have to this date not heard of an uninstalled AccessPORT being detected after the fact. The only times I have heard of dealers being able to "detect a flash" is by doing some snooping in the car for other evidence like, leaving the AccessPORT in your glove box, or other such smoking guns.

 

Ah, thank you. It's good to have a reconciled and agreed-upon view. Honestly, Dan, thank you.

 

So, of-course with that, it then again begs the above hypotheticals:

 

And if I reflash with the AccessPORT just to "Stage I," then return-to-stock and turn the car back in to Subaru at the end of my lease, and they're somehow able to detect that the car has been non-Subaru reflashed (i.e. from the AccessPORT), what kind of restitution will Cobb be able to offer to rectify the issue? will they buy-out the vehicle, based on what Travis said here, that the ECU should have been, and I again quote "returned to a 100% stock, OEM configuration"? or am I left on my own to suffer whatever consequences there may be, because the AccessPORT is a "use at your risk" aftermarket device?

 

 

---

 

 

Still, we suggest you talk with your service manager and see how they feel about these kinds of issues. Remember, Subaru is the company that used to give out SCCA memberships with new WRX and STI purchases!

Yes, Subaru did use to give out SCCA memberships with new WRX and STi purchases, but that was a long time ago, when they were trying to promote the landing of the WRX and WRX-STi on our shores.

 

And even then, enthusiasts quite quickly found out that SoA's marketing policy did not mesh with the realities of modifying the vehicle either when it came to the dealership or with trying to claim warranty. Certainly, Subaru alone cannot be faulted: we've seen this time and again in the enthusiast community: Mitsubishi and Nissan are both very recent examples of this disconnect between marketing and warranty/service.

 

For me, the problem isn't my dealership - which, while not necessarily mod-friendly (i.e. they don't sell the AccessPORT, unlike some other more mod-friendly dealerships), they also don't go overboard with giving modified vehicles any hassles. My first introduction to the dealership saw about a half-dozen modified WRXs on their lifts, and in each case, as the then rising floor manager was able to show me (on an unprompted question), warranty services were being honored.

 

For me, the specific issue is the hypothetical that I bring up, above, which is actually very real:

 

I'd love to go "Stage I" on my wife's '09 FXT - the small power gain would not be unappreciated, but it's the increased driveability as well as the ancillary features of the AccessPORT (including the ease of install) that makes the product so attractive.

 

But what happens when we return the vehicle from its lease?

 

My dealership isn't the worry - it's Subaru, itself.

 

But in the larger picture, the hypothetical also applies to those who claim more comprehensive warranty coverage of the major powertrain components (again, not to defraud Subaru, but rather, just to avoid hassle) - as although the dealership is the first-line in terms of the warranty claim/denial-of-service process, the endpoint is Subaru. Again, it harks back to viper8315's situation - in which the dealership was actually in his corner. And again, it's Subaru.

 

So, do I get an AccessPORT, and reflash?

 

From the latest, reconciled, information from Cobb, via their chief Subaru engineer, it would seem that I should have no worries, at all.

 

But there's the open questions of the hypotheticals, and the catch of "never say never."

 

I'm sincerely not trying to be an ass about this. I truly am stuck in this hypothetical situation.

 

And while some would just say: forget it, if you're that worried, why bother? The truth of the matter is that our family will likely stick with the Subaru brand for some time to come, and what's more, we've always found the driveability of the vehicles, stock, to be somewhat lacking. Add that to the fact that the vehicle for my wife will *always* be a lease - well, I'm stuck.

 

Aw, hell, I should just stop being such a worry-wart, and man the F' up and AccessPORT her.

Aw, hell, I should just stop being such a worry-wart, and man the F' up and AccessPORT her.

You said it! :lol:

 

That's a signature worthy sentence there for somebody. I don't know you well enough so I'll let it go.