Alignment can't be set to specs

I took my then-brand-new 2007 LGT Spec. B to a tire shop last December to buy a package of snow tires/rims. As part of the package, they gave me a free 4-wheel alignment. They gave me the computer printout of the pre- and post- alignment results. 7 of the 14 measurements were out of tolerance ranges, which I found very odd in a brand-new vehicle. The front came out fine (within specs) after the alignment, but the rear looked like this after alignment (all numbers in degrees; red number is out of tolerance range):

Left rear

Camber: -0.7

Toe: -0.02

 

Right rear

Camber: -1.6

Toe: -0.02

 

Total Toe: -0.03

Thrust Angle: 0.00

 

They told me that the right rear camber couldn't be adjusted, as it was already at its adjustment limit, but said that it wasn't off enough to worry about.

 

I then took my car to the Subaru dealer and spoke with the service manager, and asked him if I could get it fixed to within specs under warranty. He told me that they couldn't do anything until my car had 1000 miles on it, because SOA had told them that the alignment needs time to "settle in" before any adjustments can be made under warranty.

 

So I have two questions for you all: (1) Now that my car has almost 7000 miles on it, should I bring it back to the dealer and ask them to do another full 4-wheel alignment, and hope that they find something misadjusted enough to fix under warranty, so that I don't have to pay for the procedure? (2) Is the -1.6 degrees right read camber really good enough (and close enough to the left side) that I don't need to worry about it? The tolerance range was listed on the printout as -1.4 to 0.1 degrees.

 

Incidentally, the tire shop had to use the specs for a 2005-2006 Spec.B, because the 2007 specs weren't yet available (something that the Subaru dealer confirmed). I later found the basic specs right in my owner's manual though, and they don't appear to have changed much since '06.

Unfortunately, rear camber cannot be directly adjusted. Only rear toe can be changed. If you want rear camber to be directly adjustable, perrin makes replacement arms for the rear with camber adjustability.

 

The discrepency show just how much a car's build can range from the factory. it could be fixed by moving the rear subframe alittle but that is difficult to do. you can live with -1.6 generally, but its the total camber that you should worry about more. Unequal camber from side to side will cause a slight pull to the side with less negative camber.

Unfortunately, rear camber cannot be directly adjusted. Only rear toe can be changed.

 

Thanks, I didn't know that. I actually just pulled out the printout again though, and I see that the left rear camber did change pre- vs. post-alignment, from -0.6 to -0.7, respectively. The right rear didn't change at all. Should I assume that this is just random measurement error from one reading to the next, or could something have really changed?

 

you can live with -1.6 generally, but its the total camber that you should worry about more. Unequal camber from side to side will cause a slight pull to the side with less negative camber.

 

Do you think my observed difference between left and right (a difference of 0.9 degrees) will be enough to cause any problems? If so, is there anything that I can insist be done under warranty to fix it? I'm curious why they even bother to post the specs for rear camber in the owner's manual if it can't be adjusted (though I do believe you when you say it can't be!). I haven't noticed any obvious pull while I've been driving, but I haven't really been looking for it either (e.g. by seeing what the car does when I drive without my hands on the wheel).

......Do you think my observed difference between left and right (a difference of 0.9 degrees) will be enough to cause any problems? .......

 

What does your manual specify as the max camber difference between the left and right side? For MY2005, the max diff is specified as 45' (0.75 deg).

What does your manual specify as the max camber difference between the left and right side? For MY2005, the max diff is specified as 45' (0.75 deg).

 

Unfortunately there is no such specification in my manual. All it lists is the nominal value of the rear camber, which it lists as -0 degrees, 40 minutes (or -0.67 degrees, if my math is correct).

 

If MY '07 is the same as your MY '05, then it looks like I might have something to worry about.

What does your manual specify as the max camber difference between the left and right side? For MY2005, the max diff is specified as 45' (0.75 deg).

 

I went to the dealer today and had them print out the MY2007 alignment specs, which are more detailed than in my owner's manual. It lists the Cross Camber range as -0.8 to 0.8. From my numbers in my original post, if I understand the measurements correctly, it looks like my cross camber is -0.9 degrees, which is out of spec. My understanding is that this could lead to my car pulling to the left, and to problems with cornering.

 

I told the service manager what you told me, Whitetiger, about the rear camber not being an adjustable parameter, and asked him if there was anything that could be done for me under warranty. He said he didn't know, that he'd have to do a full 4-wheel alignment check and then call Subaru while my car was on the machine (he said he couldn't just call them before I went through the trouble of doing another alignment check, which perplexes me).

 

Anyway, if the camber is not adjustable, then do I have a defective part that is causing the out-of-spec rear camber? I don't imagine the frame would have been bent on a brand-new car, and I certainly hadn't done anything to it to cause it to get misaligned when the car was brand new.

Unfortunately there is no such specification in my manual. All it lists is the nominal value of the rear camber, which it lists as -0 degrees, 40 minutes (or -0.67 degrees, if my math is correct).

 

If MY '07 is the same as your MY '05, then it looks like I might have something to worry about.

 

For the 2005 sedan, my FSM shows the rear camber spec as negative 40min, plus or minus 45min. Or a range of -1.58deg to +0.083deg.

It's almost certainly not that your frame is bent or even that a part is defective. Rather I would guess that it's the result of build tolerances for various suspension pieces which add up. Measure the height of your car from side to side (ground to top of wheel well arch). I believe the lower side will cause more negative camber, other parameters being equal. At least if you have the issue documented at the dealer then if your tires wear quickly in an uneven manner you have some recourse.

At least if you have the issue documented at the dealer then if your tires wear quickly in an uneven manner you have some recourse.

 

That's an excellent point. Even if I can't have them immediately fix the issue, it sure couldn't hurt for the measurements to be on file.

The 07 Spec.B is heavier than the 06. Might that have an effect on camber especially if 06 alignment specs are used?

The 07 Spec.B is heavier than the 06. Might that have an effect on camber especially if 06 alignment specs are used?

 

It turns out that the '07 specs appear to be exactly the same as the '06.

 

Anyway, I thought I'd post the final outcome of this case, after I had another 4-wheel alignment done at the Subaru dealer yesterday... Comparing the alignment reports from the tire shop a year ago, versus the Subaru dealer yesterday, there wasn't a single measurement that was the same after 6000 miles of driving, and some were substantially different. I'm not sure if things really changed that much, or if the alignment machines were simply calibrated differently between the two shops, but the right rear camber that was previously out of spec range (at -1.6 degrees) is now squarely inside the tolerance range (at -1.1 degrees), even though nothing was adjusted on that wheel. I guess it fixed itself. A couple of other parameters (front camber, right rear toe) that were previously in range were now out of spec, so those had to be adjusted, but everything is fine now.

 

I'm not sure if the moral of the story is (1) to never believe an alignment report that you get from a single shop, or (2) that you need to re-align all your wheels once a year (or more) to keep things in spec. Maybe you just need to align all your wheels once, when your car is relatively new, after the alignment has had a chance to "settle in" (as SOA told the dealer might happen).

^ Glad you got it solved. :thumbup:

Did you have any more weight in your car at one point or another?

 

As soon as more weight is added, the whole thing changes. Like a full tank of gas vs.. almost empty?

 

The guy that did my alignment recently got on the car while on the machine, and all the measurements went out of spec, got off, and were back to spec.

 

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^I've mentioned b4 that some guys insist on sitting in the car while the alignment is done.

Did you have any more weight in your car at one point or another?

 

As soon as more weight is added, the whole thing changes. Like a full tank of gas vs.. almost empty?

 

The guy that did my alignment recently got on the car while on the machine, and all the measurements went out of spec, got off, and were back to spec.

 

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I haven't got the slightest idea how much gas was in the car when I had the initial alignment done a year ago, but there was about half a tank in it when I had it realigned this week, so half a tank's worth of gas (in either direction) is the most that the weight could have differed from last year. Other than the gas, the contents of the car were pretty much the same both times (no more than 10 pounds difference, I'd say).

 

As for the possibility of a mechanic sitting in the car while the alignment was being done, who knows. Unless you watch your car every minute of the hour-and-a-half it takes to do the alignment, there would never be any way to know. Interesting point though!

 

This all begs the question... how much gas/weight should be in the car when it is aligned? As far as I know, the alignment specs don't specify that the alignment must be done at a certain weight, so maybe it's best done at half a tank, if that represents the average gas load that is in a typical car (i.e., half the time, the alignment would be out of spec in one direction for any given car, and the other half the time, in the other direction)? Is it safe to assume that the tank was full at the factory the day the specs were being engineered? I don't really expect a single answer to those questions... just food for thought!

Car ship from the factory with no gas, just the bare minimum.

 

It was interesting to see the measurements change as the guy was doing the alignment. I was there while he did it.

 

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Car ship from the factory with no gas, just the bare minimum.

 

If that is the case (and that makes perfect sense), then I wonder if it's safe to assume that the tank was also empty in the test vehicle that the engineers were using to design the specs... or would they have set the specs under more realistic driving conditions?

 

This would make a very interesting experiment, to do an alignment check on a machine with an empty tank, and then put a full tank's worth of gas in the trunk (centered over the actual gas tank) while it is still on the machine, and see what happens.

 

Anyway, even if my tank was more or less full a year ago, that should not have made the camber go out of spec on only one side of my vehicle, as I think the tank is evenly centered from side to side, if I am not mistaken. The left rear camber hardly changed at all from last year to this one (0.1 degrees), but the right rear camber (the one that was out of spec) changed quite a bit (0.5 degrees).

^I've mentioned b4 that some guys insist on sitting in the car while the alignment is done.

 

A very good idea.

ok sorry i dont want to hijack but, lets say the alignment is bad from the factory, and tire noise has developed because of bad wear? if they align the car under warranty, would they also replace tires under warranty? i have a 08 2.5i and 3k miles, and theres noticeable tire noise, and the tires are cupping. what should i do?

Tires have a separate manufacturer warranty. Bring it in, tires should not wear in 3K miles.

 

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