No 6 speed is a BIG mistake

I'm really interested in the new Legacy GT Turbo but the cars it is competing against in its class (A4, G35, 330i, Passat, V40) will all or already offer a 6 speed in 2004/2005. Even cars down a class in size offer 6 speeds (Mazda 6, Accord, Jetta, Golf, STi). Especially since the gearbox is already available, maybe a ratio change would be required versus the STi ratios. I would really like xenons but I could survive without if a 6 speed was available. Also free scheduled maintenance for 2/24000 or 3/36000 since atleast Audi/BMW/Volvo offer it. Just my 2 cents.

ugh.. more of this?? A 6 speed is not a big deal. Tell me exactly why you want it? What is the reason it's a mistake in your opinion? And "because these others do have it" is NOT a reason.

Free Scheduled Maintenance? Subaru's cost approx. 1/2 of what those other makes cost to maintan as in scheduled servicing. Trust me I owned a late model Volvo, brake pads at 15,000 miles :roll:

If a 6 speed is not a big deal then why will all other cars in the class offer a 6 speed. Lets see, maybe its because customers ask for it, the other companies have done the market studies. So Subaru should save the study money and follow suite. So because others have it is a perfect reason. BMW for one does not do anything unless it makes consumer sense so a 6 speed is absolutely required. A seperate point is a 6 speed gives them a better edge on fuel economy. Audi increased fuel economy 2-3 points by going to the 6 speed. If you want to upscale you need to offer things you've never offered before, the 6 speed is just one of many things they need to thin k of adding. I'll pay so money for additional options is no issue to me. Last but not least I like having 5 closer ratio gears and a crazy overdrive 6th for economy and lower revs while cruising. My 1993 Supra TT has a great 6th gear, makes the car a pleasure at cruise.

Free scheduled maintenance is a smart investment by a manufacturer so that the vehicles re-sale values stay strong and their pre-owned sales grow. It also forces lease owners to take care of the vehicles. Thus the cars are more likely to have a more trouble free life because of the extra care early on.

I can remember when it was a big deal to have a 5 speed as opposed to 4 speed, now a 5 speed isn't good enough. Will this ever stop?

[quote name='unorthodox']Free scheduled maintenance is a smart investment by a manufacturer so that the vehicles re-sale values stay strong and their pre-owned sales grow. It also forces lease owners to take care of the vehicles. Thus the cars are more likely to have a more trouble free life because of the extra care early on.[/quote] I agree with what you're saying, I guess I never really considered not following the maintenance schedule by the book. It would also help dealers sell used cars as "Certified Used".

Who will offer the first seven speed box :roll: I agree on a marketing point it's doesn't look good. Real world performance difference is marginal. But Subaru know that offering a 5 speed Auto was more important. We all know thats going to be the bigger seller. Plus if u are going to build an Sti Legacy a 6 speed box is an obvious upgrade over standard. It would give the Sti a point of difference.

If they are going to make a Legacy STi and it'll include a 6 speed thats great, I'm in on that.

Well I don't know if all your theory behind the 6MT is perfectly logical. Yes, the American public is very, they have more of this, so I want more of this. But is more always better? Would you rather have we gotten 125hp demotion instead of 250hp, would you rather the weigh increase another 100+lbs than decrease 100+lbs? Does it matter if there is plenty of torque? Yes it would be nice for a bit taller 5th or a closer ratio 6th with the 6th gear being a tall cruising gear. But, as noted previously, all those cars you list, are $5-10k or more with similar gear. Getting this car for $25-28k (price range its likely to inhabit), will be an absolute steal for what it will be. You have to overlook the engine and tranny alone, this is a true drivers car and will be able to likel outhandle all with grace. As for an STi or Spec B version, yes I would expect a 6-speed box with excellent ratios, LSDs, Brembos, a more powerfully and higher-sprung tuned EJ257, different wheels, and other things to really bring it over the top. Yes there is things they could have changed. I also was hoping for a 6MT, but the more I look at it, its not that big a deal. The ratios are pretty darn good, and the case is stronger. The only real difference I'd change is to add a front LSD (optional of course for price considerations) on the drivetrain side of things. In the 1/4-mile the Leg would have an advantage over the STi in that it would have to shift twice if the engine was tuned for the 7000rpm limit, but it will require 3 shifts. (Yes I have a full spreadsheet of digits if you want to see them.) The 1/4 isn't where these cars excel, but it still is fun to get pinned into the seat, regardless, making your statement about the more is better, would have helped the bench racers.

If you want a 6 speed then maybe you should look at one of those other brands. I just don't see the big deal and your post doesn't say anything to really argue FOR it. There is no real reason to "require" a 6 speed. It will make the GT heavier which is bad. Like Kevin has been saying it's only one shift to 60mph. These forums discussing the legacy has turned into a whine-fest (not so much here as some other forums I know ;)) about what everyone wants and requires.. it's funny how you compare Subaru to a BMW and Audi.. although that's what Subaru wants.. it's taking baby-steps towards that. I am willing to bet that the Legacy GT will TROUNCE anything within $10,000 (Luxo-sedan) either way in all weather conditions, 6 speed or no 6 speed.

As Tide said in another post.. The Legacy is more of a competitior of the camry and the accord.. maybe we should look at it that way.. then the GT kicks a whollatta tail :lol::lol:

[quote name='unorthodox']I'm really interested in the new Legacy GT Turbo but the cars it is competing against in its class (A4, G35, 330i, Passat, V40) will all or already offer a 6 speed in 2004/2005. Even cars down a class in size offer 6 speeds (Mazda 6, Accord, Jetta, Golf, STi). Especially since the gearbox is already available, maybe a ratio change would be required versus the STi ratios. I would really like xenons but I could survive without if a 6 speed was available. Also free scheduled maintenance for 2/24000 or 3/36000 since atleast Audi/BMW/Volvo offer it. Just my 2 cents.[/quote] I'd suggest NASIOC for grousing about what the new Legacy doesn't have. They're into it over there. :lol: Seriously, a 6-speed is marketing. Period. It has nothing to do with performance. It can help fuel economy, but so can a 5-speed with well-sorted ratios. Should Subaru keep up with the Jonses? No, the Jonses should keep up with Subaru. Which of the cars on that list can compete with the Legacy GT, performance-wise except for the STi, which isn't in the Legacy's class when it comes to being a grownup car. Subaru's bumper to bumper warranty even covers light bulbs (mine burned out about my license plate...they changed it...no charge). And I don't know of a Subaru dealer that doesn't give you free oil change coupons, really the only scheduled maintenance you need for the first 36K miles. Note that "unscheduled" or "wear" items aren't covered. The 6-speed isn't "readily available," either. It is in the STi, but that box is too heavy for the Legacy. There is supposed to be a lighter 6-speed in development, but that's just a rumor. I can't see enough MT cars being sold to justify the development costs, frankly. Also keep in mind that with a turbo car, top gear still needs to be near boost, for emergency maneuvers. If you need power to avoid something, having to take time to downshift could be the difference between avoidance and not. The STi, with another 50 hp and lb-ft over the Legacy can get away with it, but it still has a 3.9 final drive, which isn't overdrive at all. Finally, my suggestion would be to get over it. Why while? What value does it have? The Legacy GT is not going to have a 6-speed. Buy it, or don't, as is your wont, but saying "It would be a perfect car if..." is like saying "My life would be complete if I were dating [insert Hollywood star here]." That might be true, but it ain't gonna happen. :lol: Kevin

Read my reply to the other newer posting in this forum. Oh and by the way I'm sure the sahreholders of Fuji Heavy Industries would love to do anything they can do to minimize volume. Marketing is what sells cars or anything for that matter. If you don't offer the bells and whistles the competition offers than you will never gain on them or grow your business. These are just facts it has nothing to do with my opinion or other opinions, just cold hard facts. There is no whining going one and I will untimately buy the car that rides the best, accelerates the best, has the most upgradebility, and overall fuel economy and long term durability with the best dollar value. Thats all.

This has become such a touchy topic. The Subaru faithful don't want any dissenting remarks, and others just whine and whine and whine. This isn't necessarily here, but on various forums. There seems to be very little happy medium. I'm as tired of the extreme comments trying to squelch the whining as I am the tone of the whining itself. The Faithful argue that there is zero need for a 6 speed, and while I can't say that I agree entirely, I don't see 5 gears as entirely bad. I don't think that the points of "the dissenters" is wrong, but the arguments for a 6MT are usually poorly stated and in a very poor, almost ghostly ;) tone. Frustration on both sides tends to make us break down and lash out whether at each other or the situation or Subaru itself. If we got a 6 speed, would the Faithful be down that Subaru didn't stick with a 5 speed? I don't think so, and it's not only because of the trust in Subaru that they are researching market conditions and needs to the best of their ability. If a 6MT were such a bad idea, there would not be one currently in development. We have the 5MT because the 6MT wasn't finished R&D in time, not because it is a bad idea. It will come in due time. There are always going to pros and cons for the number of gears. Mercedes is going to come out with a 7 speed automatic, and it can probably make good use of it with their high horsepower and torque engines. Is it insane? Yes, but so are their 500+ hp engines. Would the gear ratios of the Spec B been preferrable over the regular GT for performance? Yes, the gearing alone helps the Spec B be a few clicks faster to 60. The problem is that the top gear ratio is way too short for US driving and tastes. Thus, putting a sixth gear would be perfect for a balance of lower gear performance and top end cruising rpms. The biggest concern of a tall 6th gear especially in a turbo engine is whether it will have the torque to accelerate when it is cruising along at say 65mph in top gear. For this reason, maybe a 6 isn't compable with 250hp, whereas a 350hp and the resulting torque would be able to use the taller gear in real world driving. Notice how the STi's 6th gear isn't all that tall. It just makes all of the gears really close in ratio which shouldn't be so necessary in a torquey engine. I don't entirely buy this preceeding logic because obviously other manufacturers have found it useful for one reason or another to put a 6MT, and Honda for one doesn't add another gear just to keep up with the Joneses. You don't see them switching to RWD or V8 engines. The bottom line is that we're getting a 5MT, but probably over 80% of the sales will be of automatics whether it is a 5MT or 6MT. Again, the Evo vs. STi is a good example of the number of gears not really being an advantage. It's not merely about the number of gears but the ratios chosen. For now, we can "deal" with the same transmission that helped win the Car of the Year in Japan. When a properly designed 6MT is finished, I'm sure they will be happy to introduce it. Kicking, screaming, and whining can't make R&D speed up any more. What's done is done, and a 6MT will be on its way later on. There are advantages seen for it by Subaru, but it's just not ready. Deal with it. When it arrives at the dealerships, test drive them and then form an opinion. In the meantime, just don't count it out because of the number of gears. Many people did just that with the Evo given its -1 gear and -30hp/-30tq. The rags didn't seem to mind one bit. Just keep that in mind. Now that I've had to take a dinner break from writing this, I'm sure there are other replies that probably repeated parts of what I've said, so forgive me. Let's all just stay level headed and talk about the pros and cons, but lets please try to stay respectful and watch our words to try to not incite a reaction from others.

Well put Preston! No go eat your peas so you can get desert. :D

"You can't eat your pudding if you don't eat your meat!!"

There are rumors that *if* the R&D is ready that we might see it at launch.. again more RUMORS.. WOOOHOOO!

one more thing.. JAPAN CAR OF THE YEAR! and you know they get all the good cars.. bacause they are JDM .. duh! :lol: This Legacy will rock!

That is a good note on the JDM COY, there were quite a few good vehicles in the mix and I hear there is generally a bunch of persuading of votes, however, minds were truly made on all the value and fun the Leg offers. The turbo Legacy's have been the bar most others have been compared to in Japan for a number of years now. That must say something as well. Where's Hansen when we need him. :D

[quote name='PPower'] Let's all just stay level headed and talk about the pros and cons, but lets please try to stay respectful and watch our words to try to not incite a reaction from others.[/quote] The only thing that would keep me from buying a silver GT wagon is if the only transmission available were an automatic. I don't know if I would consider myself one of the "Faithful," as much as someone who is not entirely convinced of the benefits of an extra gear. I'll take whatever Subaru gives us, as long as I can row my own. :D And the excerpted part of your reply is particularly well-put. Kevin

I've heard (I know... blah, blah, blah) that Subaru isn't really against offering a 6 spd, but they're just too expensive at this time. The unit in the STi is, if I recall correctly what I was told, about a $7,000 piece of equipment. Their cost. That would put the Legacy into an undesirable price range in the eyes of Subaru. If they do their magic, and tweek as needed and get the cost down, then it [i]could[/i] become available at some point. Now, about the need for a six-speed. Eh... whatever. I think it's just kind of a 'gee-whiz' factor. I hope it becomes available for those that have to have it, but it's not a make-or-break item for me. A beefed up five-speed will work just fine.

Kevin, thanks. richeich, Subaru's cost on the transmission is unknown, but it could be that $7k is what it would cost for you to buy the tranny yourself. What is important is their increased cost over the regular WRX unit, and that can be difficult to guess because they have to somehow amortize their R&D dollars per unit sold. Given the limited numbers of STi trannies, it probably is quite high per unit. However, those R&D costs get shared by newer projects because things learned from its development will pass to other transmissions in development like the lighter 6MT currently being worked on.

I mentioned Japan COY first. :D ;) I don't want to triple post, so I'll edit: Yes, the Legacy turbo cars have been head of its class. But what are its peers there? Toyota Caldina(?), Mazda 626 (now 6), JDM Accord (TSX), and others. The fact that the Legacy has been a Japanese benchmark of sorts is true, but it further shows how different the US market is from there. As I said elsewhere, the Legacy turbo performs so much better than those other cars in its JDM class that it compares better to higher priced European cars in our market. I see Subaru of Japan/Global wanting to move the brand up and more premium towards European competitors, but I feel left a bit worried as to the direction SoA takes. I get the impression that dealers want to sell the car as an Accord competitor which could water down the car in the future. I'm prepared to send in plenty of opinions to these new brand managers.

I personally think that the 6 spd MT should be SAVED for a STI or any other performance variant of the Legacy in the future for the U.S. market. I think a very well sorted package at a lower price point is EXTREMELY great marketing to boost initial sales by Subaru for their GREAT new Legacy. They are doing the right thing here IMO, why load the car up (6 spd MT, HID's, NAV/LCD, Factory Body Kit) and blow the price up to $36,999 plus. The Legacy GT Limited will still leave room in the future for Subaru to build two additional Legacy variants, first a highline edition (3.0 H6, HID's, Bluetooth, NAV/LCD, Wood Dash Trim...yuck), and then a performance edition (STI Power, 6 spd MT, HID's, Tuned Suspension, Factory Body Kit). This is pretty simple IMO...If you really want the 6 spd that bad, then wait a while and you will get it...patients! :lol: