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-   -   Sedan vs Wagon struts (http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203139)

watchdoc 03-08-2013 07:11 PM

Sedan vs Wagon struts
 
I have been reading threads for days now and I can't find a definitive answer. KYB only show one part number for struts for both sedan and wagon when ordering replacement struts.

I have read several "guides" for using Impreza struts on the BG/BK Legacy and they mention over and over to interchange impreza sedan with legacy sedan and impreza wagon with legacy wagon.

When it comes to Impreza struts, there are separate part #'s for sedan vs wagon struts.

So my questions are;

Is there a difference between Legacy Sedan and Legacy wagon struts?

If there is a difference, where can you get actual wagon replacement struts since KYB doesn't show wagon part #'s?

watchdoc 03-08-2013 08:25 PM

Quote:

The next issue that comes up is the alignment. The GD has a wider track than a GG, which comes from longer lateral links and control arms. This changes the geometry slightly and the angle of the mounting holes on the bottom of an 02+ Impreza sedan strut. This basically means that if you put Impreza sedan struts in a Legacy, there will be less negative camber. The most camber available seems to be about -1 degree in the front and it will be about half a degree positive in the rear. However, the difference between the cars is not simply an issue of track width. There is also a slight difference between a GG and the Legacy, so the angles of the holes on the flange on BC, GD, and GG struts are all different. I suppose it's all close enough to get away with switching things. I'm sort of working on figuring out the exact differences.
This is one of the closest references I could find but it doesn't really address BG/BK wagons.

wish 03-09-2013 11:48 AM

I think the struts are the same for wagons and sedans, but wagons have stiffer rear springs

Sludgeroo 03-09-2013 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wish (Post 4331598)
I think the struts are the same for wagons and sedans, but wagons have stiffer rear springs

Yes, this is true IIRC.

The eibach or H&R springs are high enough rates it would support both a BD or BG/BK

watchdoc 03-09-2013 01:28 PM

ok, so this sort of debunks the previous theories about using sedan with sedan and wagon with wagon when swapping impreza struts.

Next question is.

Which Impreza strut is closer to legacy struts? Wagon or Sedan?

johnegg 03-09-2013 03:06 PM

what are you trying to accomplish?

what car are you working on?
year?
miles?
trans?


there is lots of experience here. and it is possible someone has done or at least thought about doing what you are considering. but it may take a long time for you to get all the info you need if you only ask specific questions with out telling us what you want to do.

and what happens if you fail to ask a very important question and miss a very important piece of info?

Kennyfvholla 03-09-2013 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watchdoc (Post 4330799)
I have been reading threads for days now and I can't find a definitive answer. KYB only show one part number for struts for both sedan and wagon when ordering replacement struts.

I have read several "guides" for using Impreza struts on the BG/BK Legacy and they mention over and over to interchange impreza sedan with legacy sedan and impreza wagon with legacy wagon.

When it comes to Impreza struts, there are separate part #'s for sedan vs wagon struts.

So my questions are;

Is there a difference between Legacy Sedan and Legacy sedan struts?

If there is a difference, where can you get actual wagon replacement struts since KYB doesn't show wagon part #'s?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wish (Post 4331598)
I think the struts are the same for wagons and sedans, but wagons have stiffer rear springs

Quote:

Originally Posted by watchdoc (Post 4331655)
ok, so this sort of debunks the previous theories about using sedan with sedan and wagon with wagon when swapping impreza struts.

Next question is.

Which Impreza strut is closer to legacy struts? Wagon or Sedan?


I am setting ALL of the details straight, here and now....


Subaru Legacy rear suspension info:

1) All 95-99 L and GT models BOTH sedan and wagon, use the same rear struts.

2) ONLY 95 Outback models use the same struts as the 96 to 99 L and GT models.

3) All 96-99 Outback models use a TALLER strut than ANY other 95-99 Legacy.

4) All 95-99 sedans have a rear spring rate of 132 lbs/in.

5) All 95-99 wagons have a rear spring rate of 190 lbs/in.

6) ALL 95-99 GT and L models have one height of spring.

7) ALL 96099 Outback models have a taller spring than any other 95-99 Legacy.

8) ALL aftermarket OE replacement struts made are model specific.

9) They make a rear strut for the 95-99 L and GT models.

10) They make a rear strut specifically for the 96-99 Outback models.


Subaru Impreza WRX rear suspension info:

1) There are MANY differences in the WRX rear struts between sedan and wagon.

2) ALL 5MT sedans have a rear spring rate of 119 lbs/in.

3) ALL 4EAT sedans have a rear spring rate of 132 lbs/in.

4 ALL 5MT wagons have a rear spring rate of 132 lbs/in.

5) ALL 4EAT wagons have a rear spring rate of 144 lbs/in.

6) ALL 02/03 WRX have rear springs with a lower diameter of 150 mm.

7) ALL 04-07 WRX have rear springs with a lower diameter of 150 mm.

8) So, 02/03 springs have to be paired with 02/03 struts.

9) 04-07 springs have to be paired with 04-07 struts.

10) The BIGGEST difference sedan and wagon is the camber between the struts.... Sedans have more camber and sedans have less.

SO, WRX WAGON struts are CLOSER in design to the second gen Legacy struts than WRX sedan struts are... Anyone who says pair WRX sedan to Legacy sedan and WRX wagon to Legacy wagon is a complete MORON. ALWAYS try and pair WRX wagon struts to ALL second gen Legacy's. Just make sure that you keep the years paired between spring and strut. 04-07 WRX wagon struts are the best. They are closest in camber and have the highest spring rate of all the WRX models.

If that doesn't answer EVERY single one of your questions, let me know...

But, I have a question for you. And it's the same as John's.. What vehicle do you have now and what do you want to do with it?

watchdoc 03-09-2013 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kennyfvholla (Post 4331926)
10) The BIGGEST difference sedan and wagon is the camber between the struts.... Sedans have more camber and sedans have less.

SO, WRX WAGON struts are CLOSER in design to the second gen Legacy struts than WRX sedan struts are...

Thank you for such a definitive answer. I assume you meant "WAGONS HAVE LESS".

I do have one more question.

Do 02-07 impreza struts allow any additional clearance for larger wheels and tires?

I recently bought a 98 5spd LGT wagon. I am a long time subaru owner but new to legacies. Here is the suspension that I ALREADY OWN from a previous impreza.

Tokico D spec struts for Impreza Sedan
Sti springs
Whiteline Comp C top hats (add neg camber and additional caster)
Group N rear top hats (Sti style)
Crash bolts for the rear

It would appear all I would need is a pair of 3/8th rear spacers and I'm good to go.

I also have a set of 04 Sti Goldies with 235/45/17 Nitto 555 tires. They just barely rub the lower strut perch on the stock Legacy GT struts.

I had already posted in the photos section so I didn't wanna be a post whore or get yelled at for overposting. Here are a couple pics. Any feedback is welcome.

I would summarize my goals as suble subaru style with an emphasis on handling without sacrificing highway manners. I have tried A LOT of subaru suspensions over the last decade and D specs with Sti springs is the best budget suspension I've tried.

http://i45.tinypic.com/219dw1t.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/23jr9n6.jpg

Kennyfvholla 03-09-2013 07:18 PM

Yep, I meant wagons have less camber.

And yeah, 3/8th inch spacers and your all set to go with that suspension. Pick up some from Paranoid Fabrications.

You SHOULD have a more clearance over the stock perch with the Tokico's

Honestly, the way everyones views suspension comfort vs handling is very different. I just drove an 04 WRX wagon with Tokico D specs and STi Pink springs. It also have white line 22 mm sway bars and some poly bushings and upgraded Group N strut mounts. It was TERRIBLE. I hated it. Too stiff (not sure where the dampening was set) and it reacted weird. On center feel was terrible and there was way to much play before the car reacted.

Kennyfvholla 03-09-2013 07:21 PM

BTW, if you end up replacing the stock setup at all would you sell me the stock rear springs?

watchdoc 03-09-2013 07:36 PM

The D specs have a wide range of adjustability. Most people don't take advantage of this and simply set them really stiff and drive it on the street like that. I won the Tarheel Sports Car club street tire rallyx class with this suspension on a 02 2.5 RS. For rallyx, I was able to stiffen the rear to allow the car to rotate easier or soften it for additional grip at soft surface venues.

It sounds like that WRX wagon you rode in was in desperate need of trailing arm bushings, steering rack bushings, less squirmy tires, and maybe even a better alignment. I love how people throw parts on a car with little knowledge of how it will feel and what issue it will solve.

I also used the same car and suspension for track days at nearly full stiff and it performed excellent. Then you just dial it back to 1-2 turns for the drive home and it's comfy on the street.

Granted, it may suck in this application but since I already own it and I'm familiar with adjusting it for the performance I want, I'm gonna give it a shot. If it doesn't perform like I want, I will likely just order GR2's and use the stock springs.

Either way, I will be keeping the stock suspension and wheels so I can return the car to stock when I sell it some day.

camroncamera 03-16-2014 04:38 PM

Sorry to BUMP this year-old thread...

Watchdoc, right now I am looking into Tokico D-Specs with a Ground Control coilover conversion for our '98 Legacy BK (black GT wagon with 17" JDM wheels, looks very much yours pictured here, although mine is a 4EAT).

Did you proceed to put the GD-application (WRX Sedan) Tokicos on this Legacy wagon, and if so, how did you compensate for the extra positive camber of the sedan fitment?

Thanks for any info you can provide :)

Kennyfvholla 03-16-2014 05:26 PM

Camber bolts!

camroncamera 03-16-2014 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kennyfvholla (Post 4763038)
Camber bolts!

What about camber plates? I know next to nothing about them.

Kennyfvholla 03-16-2014 05:52 PM

You can use camber plates. That, along with camber bolts, is really the correct way to do the job 100%


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