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-   -   Non-Resistor Spark Plugs EJ25? (http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201349)

qiman 02-08-2013 06:03 PM

Non-Resistor Spark Plugs EJ25?
 
Does anyone know of any non-resistor plugs that fit a normally aspirated EJ25? This is in a 1998 Legacy GT 2.5 liter - 5 speed.

spooln30 02-08-2013 10:15 PM

Just get some NGK Platinum plugs and NGK or OEM wires if you need them, use some diaelectric grease and call it a day.

qiman 02-09-2013 12:34 PM

non resistor plugs
 
What is the resistance of your plugs from hv input connector to the center electrode?

And what is the item number for your plugs?

spooln30 02-09-2013 10:01 PM

Dude what are you trying to accomplish?

These are the plugs I'm running NGK # BKR5EGP

qiman 02-10-2013 01:38 PM

Thanks but an NGK plug with the letter R in the part number means it is a resistive plug.

I have a plasma ignition system that requires extremely low resistance through the whole ignition system. Any significant impedance and the impulse does not work.

spooln30 02-11-2013 12:00 AM

Cool, got you now. Email ngk and see if they my a plug for your needs.

qiman 02-12-2013 04:36 PM

If anyone is interested in non-resistor plugs for the EJ25...

I wound up ordering the NGK R5671A-11, #6596 - it is the V-Groove racing plugs and they should fit perfectly. The total for 4 is about $15 delivered.
The response I got from NGK is that the only plug avail in the states for the EJ25 they make that are intended for a Subaru is the NGK BCP5ES, #7496 - that is a standard geometry non-resistor plug. These are only a couple $ a piece too.

Both of the above can be ordered through any local car parts store.

spooln30 02-14-2013 01:54 AM

So what's the deal with this Plasma ignition system? What engine and mod are you running?

qiman 02-14-2013 12:55 PM

I have it on my jet engine and leave it running even after it is up to temp - its more efficient. I also have it on my gas generator and it can be run in ultra lean conditions without any heating - it actually drops the temp. With this form of plasma, the more compression/air you cram onto the gap, the bigger the plasma grows - completely opposite from conventional sparks that will get snuffed out.

I'm putting in the non-resistors in the EJ25 and some 0 resistance plug wires and will move towards putting the plasma on the Subaru, leaning it out and doing those tests.

Plasma jet ignition circuits have been around for 40+ years but the plugs don't hold up. They need to be pure tungsten on the center electrode AND the ground. But it still works. NASA, Princeton, and all auto manufacturers have patents on it but they all use secondary power supplies to get the effect. My patent pending method is the most efficient and I made the need for secondary completely obsolete.

Anyway, I'm just surprised that it is so hard to find non resistor plugs for these Subarus.

Osei 02-14-2013 02:00 PM

[ ...... My patent pending method is the most efficient and I made the need for secondary completely obsolete. ..../]


More power to you.

O.

qiman 02-16-2013 02:26 AM

Thanks Osei.

@anyone interested - I just received these plugs: NGK R5671A-11, #6596 and they're the lowest ohm non-resistor plugs I've seen. Measured from 0.00 ohms to 0.3 ohms each so these are absolutely perfect for the plasma.
Even if you don't use the plasma ignition, there will be an automatic increase in combustion efficiency.

Normal Kettering spark ignition can be 0.01 (yes - 1/100th of 1% efficient) and the reason is because most of the energy that leaves the coil is lost in the line resistances in the ignition cables and spark plugs. This has been known and documented for ages. With only non-resistor plugs as an upgrade, you drastically increase the spark efficiency even if you keep the same cables. Plugs are commonly 5000 ohms or more! That's ridiculous.

I'm now waiting for my custom made ignition cables. I've seen the popular "performance" cables that claim to be low resistance at 300 ohms per foot. To me, that is crazy high resistance. The ones I'm having made will be close to 0 (ZERO) ohms per foot. So basically, with those and non-resistor plugs, I will have spark efficiency of around 99.xx% or so. That is 9900 TIMES increase above a typical Kettering Spark ignition that is commonly around 0.01% efficient.


If you use a scope to measure the voltage difference across a resistance of 6000 ohms, which would be minimum for a normal plug and cable series, that will tell you how much current you're getting. If the coil is 20,000 volts, you will have x voltage difference between the input end of the able and the tip of the spark plug electrode.



That current available is the electron current that moves from the ground electrode towards the center hv electrode in the opposite direction - that is the case if the HV polarity is + and opposite if it is negative. You can see that the left side of the Subaru ignition coil terminals get corroded but the right side to not, they're opposite polarity. Anyway, with 6000 ohms of resistance, the current available is pathetically puny.



Imagine taking the same voltage difference across a plug and cable set that is almost zero and you divide that voltage by even say 1 ohm compared to 6000 ohms, you have WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more current there for a spark and it will be tremendously more bigger than normal all from the same silly old stock ignition coil.



No magic, just plain and simple ohms law.



Of course you won't think you have nitro or anything, but you will be getting almost every bit of spark energy to the air/fuel mixture that you're paying for. It makes me cringe to see people spending $1000 on a fancy coil and CDI/MSD type system only to put it on a car with high resistance cables and high resistance spark plugs. They spend that money just to throw a serious portion of all that energy down the drain and they don't even know it.

Anyway, I'm just glad to have found some non-resistor plugs for the EJ25 that should work perfectly. I'll post results later when I get time to change my plugs.

spooln30 02-16-2013 03:22 AM

So your saying I could run a non-resistor plug on my stock ignition system Subaru engine to improve its ignition efficiency? I get why they would be better and I understand that a resistor plug is to help with interference with onboard electronics. But to make that system be 100% effective I would also need a ultra low resistance wire as well. This is from NGK's website. " In fact, using a non-resistor plug in certain applications can actually cause the engine to suffer undesirable side effects such as an erratic idle, high-rpm misfire, engine run-on, power drop off at certain rpm levels and abnormal combustion"

DOHCEJ22E1 02-16-2013 01:33 PM

This thread now has my attention.
$15 & a more complete burn can be had?

I have one of those "fancy MSD coils" so I'm wondering how that would affect these non resistance plugs that you speak of (coil puts out 40k volts but amps I am not sure).

So what is the type of metal that these plugs have so that the electrode at the ends do not get eaten away? I have copper plugs & my MSD is chewing on them like you wouldn't believe.

Also, if there is too much of a spark, I would think that would mean an increase in octane so that the combustion chamber would stay cooler to avoid detonation but if anything I am saying is not making any sense, please let me know.

I'm just working off my basic understanding of how spark, air, & fuel come together for combustion.

qiman 02-16-2013 03:37 PM

non-resistor plugs and RF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by spooln30 (Post 4296662)
So your saying I could run a non-resistor plug on my stock ignition system Subaru engine to improve its ignition efficiency? I get why they would be better and I understand that a resistor plug is to help with interference with onboard electronics. But to make that system be 100% effective I would also need a ultra low resistance wire as well. This is from NGK's website. " In fact, using a non-resistor plug in certain applications can actually cause the engine to suffer undesirable side effects such as an erratic idle, high-rpm misfire, engine run-on, power drop off at certain rpm levels and abnormal combustion"

Yes on the improved ignition efficiency and the non-resistor plugs are about the same cost. The NGK v grooved racing plugs I got were about $15 for 4 of them and that included shipping.

The resistance/suppression is supposed to reduce RF intereference. In the last 15 years, this Subaru is the only car where I left in resistor plugs for this long - all the other cars - Civic DX, 200SX with the v6 3 liter, 240z (no computers of course, but still), Kia Sportage (2001) and I have never heard a buzz on the radio or had any problems with the electronics. If anyone finds they have issues, they can always change back to resistor plugs. They're cheap enough to find out.

Here is my perspective on RF. Almost every big of RF is generated at a spark gap. If you use an oscilliscope and look at the gap, you will see that although you start with HV DC, at the gap, you actually get a high frequency AC waveform. That is where interference comes from. If you have that plug sitting on the bench, you will see your normal volt meters, etc... glitch because of a mix of the EMP and the RF at the gap.

A lot of materials absorb RF like metals, various plastics, etc... for example, if you have an antenna in both the UHF and VHF ranges for the purpose of mixing frequencies (heterodyning), you don't want to house those antennas in metal, various plastics, etc... because those absorb the RF. If you have a piece of ABS plastic and put it next to a glass of water in a microwave over and turn it on for a minute, the ABS will NOT heat up because that particular plastic does not absorb RF. So, ABS is a very good material to house the antennas in.

Since metal does absorb a good amount of RF, when that RF is created in the gap, the fuel/air mixture absorbs some of that RF but so does all that metal that is surround it - the head and engine block - one giant sink for the RF. I have never seen that the RF is an issue with electronics in that situation.

Will you have RF interference? You could, I can only speak for my own experience, but the fact is that a non-resistor plug will allow a bit higher voltage (because of less voltage drop from the resistance) and that lets higher current move over the gap so permits a bigger spark.

When doing bench tests with my plasma method, the impulse is so strong, the EMP (electromagnetic pulse) was interfering with electronics 20 feet away, but that is out in the open. I was creating plasma balls on a spark plug and some were larger than a golf ball, literally. You can see the third one below - but blasts that big will destroy your plugs, valves, etc... those blasts were nothing but tap water. The impulse is so strong that you don't have to electrolyze water - with simple water vapor, the impulse rips the molecules apart to their atomic state and then instantly burns the hydrogen. The Lorentz force is an electromagnetic field that is produced upon these impulses and launches the plasma off of the plug into the combustion chamber to burn everything.

http://ignitionsecrets.com/images/boost2.jpg
Ground strap in normal position
http://ignitionsecrets.com/images/boost1.jpg
Ground strap in vertical position
to open up the gap really big.

http://ignitionsecrets.com/images/boost3.jpg

Anyway, yes, non-resistors will increase efficiency and yes there is possible interference so I can't guarantee it won't give you interference, I've just never seen it with the plugs in an engine because I believe all the block and head metal are instantly grounding it out so it is a non-issue. For stereo's, there have been RF filters on those for ages and almost nobody ever gets buzzing on their speakers when revving up the engine anymore.

qiman 02-16-2013 04:18 PM

spark efficiency
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DOHCEJ22E1 (Post 4297157)
This thread now has my attention.
$15 & a more complete burn can be had?

I have one of those "fancy MSD coils" so I'm wondering how that would affect these non resistance plugs that you speak of (coil puts out 40k volts but amps I am not sure).

So what is the type of metal that these plugs have so that the electrode at the ends do not get eaten away? I have copper plugs & my MSD is chewing on them like you wouldn't believe.

Also, if there is too much of a spark, I would think that would mean an increase in octane so that the combustion chamber would stay cooler to avoid detonation but if anything I am saying is not making any sense, please let me know.

I'm just working off my basic understanding of how spark, air, & fuel come together for combustion.

Yes, more complete burn.

40kv is more than that MSD 33000v one some people are putting on their Subaru's that are meant for the Neon and Eclipses. What is the coil you're using? Is your engine similar to a EJ25 wasted spark ignition?

The outcome of coupling that non-resistor plugs and your higher voltage ignition is that the spark will be stronger at the plug.

With the plasma, the plug material is much more important. Ideally, it would have tunsten at BOTH the center electrode and the ground. Tungsten was common back in the early 1900's - search ebay and you'll see that. Plug manufacturers won't make them anymore because the plugs will outlast your engine and they won't sell very many. Most of the exotic metal plugs are just distracting people from going back to the basics of what always works best. Tungsten is inert and is a great catalyst for chemical reactions - doesn't add to or take away from the chemistry and it won't corrode.

But for performance ignition coils, cdi's or msd's, most normal racing plugs metals work fine. They won't have as long of a life compared to stock ignition coils and resistive wires/plugs. Beryllium/copper is a good alloy that we've tested and some places make them avail. They brisk yttrium a-line non-resistors with the 4 ground electrodes last pretty good. The "torquemaster" plugs now know as Extreme Spark last a long time. I don't have specific experience with those and Subaru's so I'm on a learning curve here and am just starting with the v groove racing plugs from NGK.

This isn't the exact numbers, but or example, if you put in 12v and 1 amp into your ignition coil, it will fire at HV when the switch is turned off (inductive collapse or radiant spike). 12v at 1 amp is 12 watts input - I don't know how much a stock subaru coil draws per spark. But this is the idea. If there is 10% loss in the autotransfomer windings (the coil is a small Tesla coil) - you have 12 watts minus 10% loss = 10.8 watts available.

10.8 watts divided by your 40,000 volts output = 0.00027 watts. You traded low voltage and high current for high voltage and low current. If you find how much current your coil draws per pulse, you can then use the above math to figure out the current. Imagine that small of current most of it destroyed in cable and plug resistance. It is no wonder a stock spark is like a fine spider web at the gap of a plug.

Here are some comparisons.

http://ignitionsecrets.com/images/1s...nition200x.jpg As you can see, the standard Kettering Spark Ignition can be as low as 0.01% efficient in converting power to a spark at the gap, which runs almost every gasoline powered engine in the world. http://ignitionsecrets.com/images/1p...nition200x.jpg Peaking Capacitors are MASSIVELY more efficient at converting the standard spark ignition power to a spark - upwards to 50% efficient! Notice that is 50% and NOT one-hundredths of one percent. That is quite a difference, but is all the hype justified? http://ignitionsecrets.com/images/1c...nition200x.jpg Capacitive Discharge Ignition systems have a separate power supply and are the prime choice for serious results. The dense blue ball at the gap is substantially more powerful than the peaking cap but it is hard to tell from the picture. http://ignitionsecrets.com/images/1m...nition200x.jpg __________ IGNITION method uses the SAME amount of power as the CDI system but is so much brighter and more powerful that it is beyond words. It isn't even a spark or an enhanced spark - it is in a category all by itself - it is a bright white ball of wonder!
I deleted my name because I'm not here to plug my stuff - pun intended. lol

Kettering is normal spark ignition. Peaking caps are a capacitor in parallel across the gap of a plug. For example, Pulstar plugs are nothing more than peaking caps built into the plug and the Nology wires are just capacitance built into the wire to do the same thing - they're just discharges slower so the spark lasts longer. CDI is normal capacitance discharge like any CDI or MSD - MSD of course just being more CDI discharges per cycle.

Now, for the EXACT same energy that the CDI takes and you can see the CDI is really not that much different than peaking caps, I get that supernova at the spark plug gap - SAME ENERGY! I just know how to manipulate electricity to do what I want. But that effect won't happen if there is any significant resistance in the plugs and cables.

Anyway, you say your MSD is chewing up your plugs, but it is an actual MSD or is just an MSD manufactured coil? If it is just the coil and it is 40kv output and your plugs are getting chewed up, I'd say the plugs are junk. With plugs I've used throughout thousands and thousands of hours of bench testing ignitions, I've never seen an ignition coil chew up plugs and I'm used to using a Mallory Promaster that is about 70-80kv!

With octane, actually if you have a more efficient ignition, you can use a lower octane. A better ignition doesn't necessarily mean hotter temperature either. For example, with the plasma ignition, (real plasma like I show above and not just bigger normal sparks), the engine temperatures have shown to drop up to 100F or more! AND, that is even with leaning out the mixture.

There is a huge misconception about lean burn and engine temps. If you lean it out a little and haven't compensated for a way to burn that lean mixture more efficiently, then yes, you can get hotter temps. However, you can take it so lean and with plasma for example, the engine runs cooler and cooler.

Just look at the famous story about Charles Lindbergh -

http://www.charleslindbergh.com/wwii/

You can read the whole story if you want, it is a fascinating bit of history about a famous lean burn method.

-------------------

Nervously the pilot told Lindbergh that he had only 175 gallons of fuel left. The civilian told him to reduce engine rpms, lean out his fuel mixture, and throttle back. When they landed, the 431st driver had seventy gallons left, Lindbergh had 260. They had started the mission with equal amounts of gas.

Lindbergh talked with MacDonald. The colonel then asked the group's pilots to assemble at the recreation hall that evening. The hall was that in name only, packed dirt floors staring up at a palm thatched roof, one ping pong table and some decks of cards completing the decor. Under the glare of unshaded bulbs, MacDonald got down to business. "Mr. Lindbergh" wanted to explain how to gain more range from the P-38s. In a pleasant manner Lindbergh explained cruise control techniques he had worked out for the Lightnings: reduce the standard 2,200 rpm to 1,600, set fuel mixtures to "auto-lean," and slightly increase manifold pressures. This, Lindbergh predicted, would stretch the Lightning's radius by 400 hundred miles, a nine-hour flight. When he concluded his talk half an hour later, the room was silent.

The men mulled over several thoughts in the wake of their guest's presentation. The notion of a nine-hour flight literally did not sit well with them, "bum-busters" thought some. Seven hours in a cramped Lightning cockpit, sitting on a parachute, an emergency raft, and an oar was bad, nine hours was inconceivable. They were right. Later, on 14 October 1944, a 432nd pilot celebrated his twenty-fourth birthday with an eight-hour escort to Balikpapan, Borneo. On touching down, he was so cramped his crew chief had to climb up and help him get out of the cockpit.


The groupís chief concern surfaced quickly, that such procedures would foul sparkplugs and scorch cylinders. Lindbergh methodically gave the answer. The Lightning's technical manual provided all the figures necessary to prove his point; they had been there all along. Nonetheless the 475th remained skeptical. A single factor scotched their reticence.

--------------------------------------

Anyway, despite their skepticism, the engines actually ran cooler, they used less fuel and there was no fouling of the plugs. A historical fact.

I know someone that ran an engine with an air fuel ratio of 100:1 on a bench test (not pulling a load) using a form of plasma ignition and the engine ran just fine to prove the point. For practical use, an AF ratio of 25:1 on a V8 with plasma worked just fine. That completely rips to shreds everything anyone thinks they know about the possibilities of a lean burn engine.

For example, most cars are about 20% efficient. That means 80% is wasted in transmission losses, etc... and bad combustion. Because of that, that means there is HUGE room for improvement in the combustion chamber. If we were all getting the energy in the fuel that we pay for, then cars wouldn't need a catalytic converter. With lean burn past 14.7:1, conventional wisdom is 100% wrong that you can't burn it. You can. It is a matter of using the right kind of ignition to release the energy from the fuel. That plasma instantly disassociates the hydrocarbon molecules on contact so it is almost like cracking heptane into propane, methane, etc... and suddenly you get more BTU out of the fuel. It isn't magic.

Anyway, I'm waiting for my custom cables and will look at upgrading my coil and adding a CDI that I can then modify to give me plasma. The NGK's won't last incredibly long but it is a test until I have some custom tungsten's modified.

Then, the path is to lean out the EJ25.

40MPG in the EJ25 on the highway with my 5speed should be a no brainer all the while, the engine runs cooler, no plug fouling, etc... I get 29MPG on the hwy with this 160,000 mile engine right now with a few simple things so 33% increase above that should be easy.

Mine is a 98 so is the last year with a MAF before they went to MAP. Does anyone know of a MAF modification to lean it out that doesn't including putting tape over the wire sensor or using a potmeter? Or, does anyone have the actual schematic so I can just build a new circuit?


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