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-   -   car won't start after turbo/fuel upgrade and timing belt? (

ernisill 10-04-2012 02:46 PM

car won't start after turbo/fuel upgrade and timing belt?
this is gonna be long, sorry in advance

this past weekend did the following:
timing belt, water pump, thermostat
dw650 top feeds, and 65c fuel pump
perrin tmic
cobb intake
trans cooler
ngk plugs (1 range colder)
infamous e tune with the cobb ap

everythings done and the car cranks strong, starts to pick up like it's gonna start, but never does.

we smell gas strongly, and can hear the pump priming

no fault codes being thrown at all

checked all the major fuses and relays

checked and triple checked the timing marks before ever cranking, and even after just to rule it out

no harnesses or plugs left unplugged, and the only ground we removed that was behind the battery, is back on firmly

pulled a coil and plug, cranked the car with it out, and it sparked but seemed kinda weak

had an odd problem with ap manager though, when i installed it on my desktop running windows 7 it somehow broke all my network drivers, wouldn't let me connect to the internet through hard wire, or wireless. dunno if there's any way it could have corrupted my tune, but uninstalled it and had to do a system restore to the day before to get my comp working again.

so tossed it on my laptop with xp instead, which that time it prompted me to update my ap's firmware, which i did, then deleted the tune off the ap, and copied back to it from the orig email infamous sent me.

called cobb about that weirdness and they'd never heard of it happening before.

i've tried flashing back to the ots stage 2 map i was running before the turbo upgrade but it still didn't start.

the battery never dropped below 12 volts during any of the flashes

pretty damn stumped for the moment! any help/info MUCH appreciated

leggyman17 10-04-2012 03:08 PM

Whats your fuel pressure? Do the plug look fouled out?

ernisill 10-04-2012 03:34 PM

don't have a fuel pressure gauge, just popped a plug out and it's plenty wet and a lil fouled looking

cranked it again with the plug out and this time it looked strong/normal

gonna open up the base map in ap race and see if maybe a duty cycle is way too high or something? maybe drowning the spark out on start up?

not that i doubt infamous's abilities or are trying to knock em in ANY way shape or form, we're just to the point of taking shots in the dark here

Max Capacity 10-04-2012 03:57 PM

I'm thinking to much fuel too.

I guess you did everything at one time.

I would have done the timing belt and drove the car then do the other work.

ernisill 10-04-2012 04:20 PM

yea that's what we were thinking but everything in the base map looks normal.

we're calling around for some 2nd opinions and honestly starting to worry that something either with the AP or tune file has tanked the ecm?

just emailed cobb and infamous to see if they know of anything like that happening

fingers crossed

m sprank 10-04-2012 04:20 PM

If the spark is weak outside the cylinder chances are there is no spark in the cylinder. Spark should jump at least a 1/2" gap outside the cylinder. When inside the cylnider there is pressure (compression) and oil and fuel (moisture). It is much harder to make a spark in a cylinder than in free air.

Coil connectors (white and black) have a specific position. White is cyl 1 and 2. Black is cyl 3 and 4.

Timing, spark, air, fuel, compression. You played with timing, spark and fuel. Lots to check.

ernisill 10-04-2012 04:40 PM

i forgot the first time when the spark appeared weak, we had actually just popped the coil off and stuck an old plug in it, just now when we pulled the new plug out and tested it, it seemed fine.

the white coil plugs are on the front cylinders (closest to the bumper) and the black ones on the rears (closest to the firewall)

m sprank 10-04-2012 04:54 PM

Just because timing marks on cam gears were correct when installing belt does not equal a car in timing.

You can spin the cam gears the incorrect direction to reach timing marks at tdc. Doing so will make it look right, but it is not. Motor is interference too. So, doing so could cause valves to hit pistons.

You did a lot of work. If OEM tune wont start car either it is not the tune. If ECM is communicating, allowing reads and writes it is not bricked.

ernisill 10-04-2012 05:02 PM

didnt know about spinning the cam gears a specific direction to reach the marks, but we did spin the crank by hand 360 degrees to make sure nothing hit. plus we checked all of the tooth counts from the vacation pics manual.

if a valve was able to hit a piston while hand turning it, it would have come to a complete stop right?

just pulled the belt back off to check it again.

and i actually never flashed back to stock, just the stage 2 tune i had been running. I'll try the oem one too

thanks a lot for the fast response and all the info, really appreciate it

m sprank 10-04-2012 05:28 PM

Cams should be "under pressure" when you reach tdc. At least on drivers side of motor. You can still install incorrectly and spin by hand complete revolutions. Timing can be off enough to not run, but not hit pistons with valves. Yes, if hitting, you would feel it by hand.

See if the ECM will take another flash. If it reads and writes...

If you flashed Cobb OTS map and Shamars map and both took and car will not start with either, you already proved ECM is communicating in read and write and that condition exists with multiple tunes. So.. electrical or mechanical error during installs.

You really need some more tools to continue trouble shooting too. At least a test lamp to verify injector pulses, tester to verify spark in cylinder (or at least a multi meter to test the coils) and a good old spark plug tester to set a large gap outside the cylinder. A fuel pressure gauge to verify fuel too. It would be nice to see a log of start up attempt. Is there an rpm signal? Is there a voltage signal? What position is the neutral switch.

Remember too that the immobilizer can kill fuel and spark. So there is the BIU, antennae (in tumbler), the key, the immobilizer unit and then the ECM in that chain.

Lots to look at. Big can of worms got opened on this project. In the end it is probably something fairly simple to fix. Finding it is the journey.

ernisill 10-04-2012 05:37 PM

ok we're thinking thats exactly whats happened, one of the times the driverside top cam jumped on us it messed us up enough to get the timing off, but not enough to hit like you're saying.

the diagrams in the manual are a little confusing, its single mark 12:00 and double mark 6:00 right?

ernisill 10-04-2012 05:39 PM

sorry onnthe top cam, then bottom is double mark 12:00 and sjngle mark 3:00?

m sprank 10-04-2012 06:18 PM

Yes. 12 and 6. Then 12 and 3. If drivers side cams are not trying to jump on you, you are not on tdc. I have found that I can "balance" the cams most times. But, I do more than a few timing belt changes. I also have the Subaru specific tool for holding the cams. You can get one for around $125.

ernisill 10-04-2012 06:31 PM

commence the largest sigh of relief in recorded history

got it, timing was indeed a bit off, holding solid -20 vacuum though so no valve damage

can't thank ya enough man! you and shamar both got back to me within MINUTES of asking my questions, world class customer service.

needless to say we feel like idiots. very very relieved idiots

m sprank 10-05-2012 10:24 AM

Live and learn. At least it did no damage. Bet you wont make that mistake again.

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