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-   -   Will we ever get the diesel engine? (http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190948)

dahoseman 08-09-2012 12:57 AM

Will we ever get the diesel engine?
 
I was just curious if anyone had heard any updates about the boxer diesel? I originally heard that it was going to be imported, then told it was a definite 'no'. I heard a rumor about it again and thought I would check here.

Subaru will have a run for its money with the Mazda CX-5 Skyactiv diesel. Just for reference, it's a small crossover, AWD, 6spd manual, 2.2L with 310lbs torque at 2000rpm, revs over 5000rpm, and gets over 40mpg. It's scheduled for 2013 in North America last I heard.

hmmrdwn 08-09-2012 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahoseman (Post 4018714)
I was just curious if anyone had heard any updates about the boxer diesel? I originally heard that it was going to be imported, then told it was a definite 'no'. I heard a rumor about it again and thought I would check here.

Subaru will have a run for its money with the Mazda CX-5 Skyactiv diesel. Just for reference, it's a small crossover, AWD, 6spd manual, 2.2L with 310lbs torque at 2000rpm, revs over 5000rpm, and gets over 40mpg. It's scheduled for 2013 in North America last I heard.

The problem is the price point. Think about the diesel...it has the added cost of a turbo, intercooler, technology, etc. of the gasoline Legacy GT. What happened to the Legacy GT? Americans at this time are more sold on speed than mpg and the diesel would put Subaru up against different competition. It's easier for Subaru to compete against the entry level n/a gasoline cars like Malibu, Camry, Altima, Accord, etc. which don't have a turbo diesel.

That's my goofy ass opinion though...

ehsnils 08-09-2012 10:47 PM

Considering the fuel efficiency of the diesel it would certainly attract those that drive long distances and truck drivers that want an ordinary car.

Right now when I'm driving I get 37-38 mpg and I'm not indecently light on the foot, then you can do the math. Especially since the gasoline 2.5i on a good day with a light footed driver gets 32...

hmmrdwn 08-10-2012 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehsnils (Post 4020351)
Considering the fuel efficiency of the diesel it would certainly attract those that drive long distances and truck drivers that want an ordinary car.

Right now when I'm driving I get 37-38 mpg and I'm not indecently light on the foot, then you can do the math. Especially since the gasoline 2.5i on a good day with a light footed driver gets 32...

Not all Americans are sold on diesels. When they first came out here in production cars, they were dirty, slow and problematic. GM had a couple diesels that were complete flops. Americans want speed more than economy. Even our hybrids talk about 0-60 times.

The added expense of the diesel engine for economies sake hasn't with many people other than sales and business people who drive long miles. I've got a couple friends that has bought 3 VW tdi's in a row and loves them. He puts on about 40,000 a year.

SOA has sold their cars as inexpensive and built to stay that way....it's hard to pay a premium for a car that is known to be cheap.

wera832 08-10-2012 06:37 AM

^ I say thanks GM everytime I see posts like this . I mean really , who would make a 350 into a diesel wihtout going deeper into the motor that they did , stupid move on thier part.

Im personally a diesel fan ( I had a Ford Temp Diesel back in HS , yes it did assure I didnt have very many girl friends , but I got between 40 and 50 mpg and never had any kind of issue with it ) and would LOVE to have a Toyota diesel pick up or a diesel Outback and would even be willing to pay more for one , if it were even offered. id love to have a BMW diesel ,but ,the maintience cost keep me away -


So SOA , your seeing it , give us diesel !

octain11 08-10-2012 08:50 AM

+1, nils give me your diesel

hmmrdwn 08-10-2012 09:56 AM

I'd love the Subaru diesel model in the US.

The olds diesel made top 10 worst engines ever.

Oldsmobile Diesel
Based upon the 350 cubic-inch Olds gas engine, the diesel debuted for the 1978 model year to much fanfare. The promise of the future, it allowed big car comfort with small car fuel economy. Contrary to popular belief, the engine was completely different than its gasoline brethren, but it did look the same since it needed to go down the same assembly line and fit into vehicles that could be either gas or compression-ignition powered. The block was much sturdier and the crankshaft mains and crankpins were 0.500-inch bigger, measuring 3.00 inches instead of 2.5 inches. The crankcase was heavier and the pistons were fitted with full-floating pins. The block was so good that during that era many drag racers used it to make big power and it was known to stay together.

Then what happened to the Olds Diesel to give it such a poor reputation and the impetus for a class-action law suit? The engine suffered from poor familiarity by the consumer and Olds service personnel along with the lack of a water/fuel seperator and drain in the fuel system. This was compounded by a flood of very poor-quality diesel fuel into the market place shortly after the engine's introduction. Any moisture or dirt that would get into the high-pressure Roosa Master injection pump would cause some of the parts to hang up. This could have occurred for only a second, but that was enough time of an incorrect fuel inject cycle that would allow cylinder pressure to peak and overcome head bolt tension or break down the head gasket. The driver may have only sensed a slight shudder but the damage was already done. The injured head gasket would then let coolant seep into the cylinder and since there is little quench volume in a diesel, the uncompressability of a liquid was a theory very quickly reinforced. Something had to give and it often was a piston, connecting rod or crankshaft but it spelled disaster either way. In addition, both the dealer body and the consumer often used the incorrect oil for the engine, creating further service issues.

The Olds Diesel, when cared for properly, ran for hundreds of thousands of miles, but only in the hands of an experienced diesel operator. Other than that, it makes a great gasoline race engine block.



Read more: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/fea...#ixzz239wLqQcS

dahoseman 08-10-2012 10:46 AM

I'm not sure why people think diesels are slow. Modern diesels are torquey, fast, clean and don't smoke unless you mess with them. Diesels have won LeMan's, Baja, and other races. In everyday use I get to see my brother's vehicles. That guy owns far too many cars for his own good, among them several Jetta TDI's, Passat TDI's, older and a newer Dodge 2500 diesels, a Ford diesel, and a diesel Suburban. He tweaks them, but the diesels are faster than their gasoline counterparts and the VW's, paradoxically, got better mileage after installing bigger injectors. His 95 Jetta TDI regularly sees 58-65mpg on highway trips depending on how he drives. I thought he might be selling me a tall tale until I had to ride with him on a 750 mile round trip last year and we didn't have to stop for fuel once. Then again, I shouldn't have been too surprised. I used to see low 22mpg hwy in my 9000lb, 4X4, extended cab, long bed, souped-up (~500hp/750tq) Dodge Cummins riding on enormous tires for pulling 5th wheel trailers through swampy fields.

There are diesels at drag strips also.
1. 2.
I'm obviously a diesel fan and I'm biased. However, I can't really think of anything that gas engines do better compared to a properly tuned modern diesel. In comparison to gasoline engines, modern diesels are more reliable, FAR cleaner burning, get better mpg, and have similar drive characteristics. Win win

Just my $0.02

05 LegacyGT 08-10-2012 11:18 AM

Gasoline engines sound better, smell better, are lighter, and usually rev higher. Those are really the only advantages though.

hmmrdwn 08-10-2012 11:30 AM

Diesels have a ton of torque and have really cleaned up their act. They are durable, powerful, quieter and efficient.

I can't stand how manufacturers bundle their desirable features with expensive profit loaded ones to get consumers money though. Look at the VW Jetta. The base car is $16,600, but a diesel is around $25,000. Yeah they throw in some extra features, but you are basically paying a premium for the diesel engine. VW has quite a scheme going. Sell a plebian car to the masses and drop in a desirable engine and grossly inflate the price.

ssbtech 08-10-2012 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 05 LegacyGT (Post 4020986)
Gasoline engines sound better, smell better, are lighter, and usually rev higher. Those are really the only advantages though.

Been a while since you've been around a diesel, eh?

I was next to a VW TDI on the highway, accelerating from a stop. It was quiet and barely had a hint of diesel smell to it.

05 LegacyGT 08-10-2012 01:37 PM

When I say they sound better I'm not talking about being quieter. I know modern diesel engines are much quieter and don't smell as strong as they used to. Personally, I prefer a nice sounding exhaust and don't mind it being a little bit louder as long as it's a good sound. Diesels just don't have a good sound IMO.

hmmrdwn 08-10-2012 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 05 LegacyGT (Post 4021277)
When I say they sound better I'm not talking about being quieter. I know modern diesel engines are much quieter and don't smell as strong as they used to. Personally, I prefer a nice sounding exhaust and don't mind it being a little bit louder as long as it's a good sound. Diesels just don't have a good sound IMO.

Yeah I agree and was referring to lack of diesel "clatter" that is much improved.

dahoseman 08-10-2012 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 05 LegacyGT (Post 4020986)
Gasoline engines sound better, smell better, are lighter, and usually rev higher. Those are really the only advantages though.

I guess itís different strokes for different folks on sound. I actually prefer the sound of a diesel. To me they sound ďbeefyĒ and powerful. The new ones in smaller vehicles sound essentially the same as a gasser anyways nowdays. The modded diesels usually sound like any other performance car, like the dragster in that video.

I donít notice much smell with either new gas or new diesel cars. Iím not really that into my carís exhaust smell anyway, but I guess itís important to other people.

The weight advantage used to be a big deal, but thatís becoming obsolete also. Since there are small diesels with aluminum blocks and other weight savings, some are about equal in weight to their gas counterparts, but they still produce a lot more torque.

I have to admit that I love the sound of a high revving engine. Thatís partially why I like my sport bikes. However, I think that the RPM advantage is also relative and a bit of a glass ceiling. While compression and stroke have some part in the RPM governing, I suspect that the two primary reasons that most diesels come out of the factory with lower redlines is that they are able to produce their power at such lower RPM that they just donít need a high redline and it would hurt efficiencyÖ and it would also start to break transmissions. The gearing takes the place of high revs. Besides, when you have several hundred pounds of torque on tap at 1700rpm, you donít really need to go to 7000rpm. With most turboíd gassers, the first 3000RPM is sort of wasted anyway while youíre waiting to get into the powerband. I donít even know any gasser turbo tuners that brag or even report much under 3K. Diesels can pretty much be in the power band right off of idle.
For evidence of the factory falsely low redline, Iíll use my truck as an example. Even with the enormous stroke and giant mass of spinning metal in my 5.9L Cummins, the only thing maintaining a factory 3000rpm redline was decreased fuelling for efficiency and to save the transmission. It only took a simple (commonly and safely done) modification to fuelling and valve springs to add another 1000rpm to redline, which also added enough high-end power to turn a stock transmission into a paperweight. Some of those engines that are used for pulling competitions or dragsters are set to run at 6000rpm or above (with crappy mpg) Pretty good for such a big engine, gas or diesel. It's a common and usually pretty simple mod for diesel owners to increase redline for big power gains to make their cars a lot more fun. It just takes the mpg way down.


Once again, I'm clearly biased, though.

dahoseman 08-10-2012 09:38 PM

I actually am looking forward to the CX-5 diesel. I may jump ship to Mazda once they've been out for a while over here. With a little 2.2L on a factory tune putting out 310lb tq, I'm guessing a simple remap would bring 400lb or better. Do some simple tweaks to increase the redline to 6500rpm or higher for more gains and it could be a real beast with its 6spd and AWD.

Considering the engine will first be released in North America only as race engines, I'm curious to see what the tuners do with them.
http://content.usatoday.com/communit...se-mpg-power/1


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