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-   -   what Sways for the track (http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185936)

Drogos 05-16-2012 03:45 PM

what Sways for the track
 
Still on stock Bilstein suspension. Car obviously is pretty ..wobly and takes forever to settle between transitions but once settled in turn and that line is picked, it's actually very predictable and almost neutral. Plowing a little bit towards under stear and it takes some effort and full throttle to get it closer to neutral. I want to make incremental upgrades to understand exactly how the car reacts. RCE Tarmacs are high on the list but want to start with swaybars first and see what it does. It's a DD so don't care for anything extreme right now. I measured my bars since I have no clue what OEM calls for and it looks like I have 21mm F and 16/17 in the rear. I was thinking 19mm for now in the rear and see how the car will react ? In general I should keep the front thicker than rear right?

Heedz 05-16-2012 05:15 PM

biggest one on the market or cusco 21mm best fit

StoplightAssassin 05-16-2012 09:59 PM

There's many approaches to suspension tuning. I run a whiteline 22mm adjustable front sway and 20 mm adj rear. My car is my daily driver so I don't want a harsh ride that can come with thick sway bars.

For autox days, I adjust my car's balance through dampening, camber, and tire pressures.

Drogos 05-17-2012 01:43 PM

it's going to be used at high speed road racing so I really care for stability. I don't want the rear to snap out on me going 70mph in a turn. Stock setup seem to need just a little bit stiffer RSB so assumaing I want to keep FSB for now seems I shouldn't go over 19mm ? If I go thicker than 20mm in the rear I will have to upgrade FSB as well.

StoplightAssassin 05-17-2012 02:07 PM

In that case, I would recommend the swaybar setup I run along with kartboy endlinks and the avo rear stabilizer bracket. Very safe and predictable on the street, assuming your other specs are good.

whitetiger 05-17-2012 02:23 PM

for the track, sways will make the car harder to drive for a novice since they make the weight transfer on to the tires more abrupt. at the limit, for a novice it will cause easier snap oversteer or understeer. most track/autox people including me will tell you that its best to start with dampers/springs. go for the tarmac 1's. you say you already like the dynamic of the car, so you dont need says yet.

im sure a bunch of noobs are gonna chime in about how great swaybars are, but they are noobs and anyone who knows suspension tuning will tell you that you start with the dampers. and stock bilstiens are sh1t, get them revalved for track duty, get konis, or do coilovers.

Drogos 05-17-2012 03:59 PM

I wish I could just damp cash on Tarmacs but it close to $1.8k versus couple hundred for sways :) I decided not to drop any major cash on the car until it's paid off. You are right about setup for unexperienced drivers. I did 4 or 5 track days but that puts me well into novice category and stock suspension seem to be basically easy to drive because transitions are slow and car is wobly and compensates for drivers mistakes. The worst that can happen really when you go to hot into corner ......you will go to wide and get 2 or all for on the grass. Even that comes as no surprise and can be easily predicted :)
That's becoming a problem for me though. I think it's 3rd turn at Putnam park where you have to settle the car right away after the turn to be ready for the next one. It just takes too long. Springs and shocks are to blame I am sure but hopefully stiffer bars would help the car settle faster after turn ?

scoobyscoodle 05-17-2012 10:00 PM

^The heavier bars will keep your roll down, but settling faster is really a job of heavier springs and quality damping. I think sways are a great bang for the buck on the street. But, for a balanced car on the track, unfortunately you have to pay to play as they say.

If you aren't planning on ever going with coils, sways and koni's would be a nice setup for starting out on the track. Soon you are going to want stiffer rates though.

AZP Installs 05-22-2012 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitetiger (Post 3900079)
for the track, sways will make the car harder to drive for a novice since they make the weight transfer on to the tires more abrupt. at the limit, for a novice it will cause easier snap oversteer or understeer. most track/autox people including me will tell you that its best to start with dampers/springs. go for the tarmac 1's. you say you already like the dynamic of the car, so you dont need says yet.

im sure a bunch of noobs are gonna chime in about how great swaybars are, but they are noobs and anyone who knows suspension tuning will tell you that you start with the dampers. and stock bilstiens are sh1t, get them revalved for track duty, get konis, or do coilovers.

Agreed. I've been instructing road racing for 10+ years. When I had my 05 legacy, first thing I did was konis. Then sti pink springs. Then whiteline 24mm bars f/r. But sways were last on the list.

-mike

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boxkita 05-23-2012 07:55 PM

Disclaimer: Everything I learned about setting up my car came from this forum. Everything I learned about driving on a track came from Porsche HPDEs.

That said:
Having done what you are planning on doing (sways first), I would advise driving until you are exceeding the limits of the car all the time. Preferably, having an instructor riding along who tells you this is best.

I added a Cobb rear sway, with stiffener first, set at 215%, instead of the higher setting. Later in the summer, I added the front sway. That made it pretty neutral, with a tendency to oversteer when I turned in too quickly.

If you are already uber good, then you need to find the motorsports section and start reading - http://legacygt.com/forums/forumdisp...sports-38.html

This year, I did everything Whitetiger & AZP Installs are suggesting: move to coilovers, replace all bushings, sways, upgraded tires/wheels plus corner-balance. Car runs so much better and its easier to go faster. Now, I spend all my "mod" dollars on me, the driver.

boxkita 05-23-2012 08:04 PM

I'm a troll
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drogos (Post 3900187)
I did 4 or 5 track days but that puts me well into novice category
[Novice is not based on number of events completed, except maybe in SCCA/NASA. Its based on how well you, the driver, handle your car]

and stock suspension seem to be basically easy to drive because transitions are slow and car is wobly and compensates for drivers mistakes. The worst that can happen really when you go to hot into corner ......you will go to wide and get 2 or all for on the grass.
[Slow down or brake harder. Stock suspension will work well when you pick a line and hold it. If you need to make mid-turn adjustments, you are too fast.]

Even that comes as no surprise and can be easily predicted :)
That's becoming a problem for me though. I think it's 3rd turn at Putnam park where you have to settle the car right away after the turn to be ready for the next one. It just takes too long.
[Slow down, or tap the brakes to settle the car]

Springs and shocks are to blame I am sure
[really? Have someone else drive your car with you as passenger]

but hopefully stiffer bars would help the car settle faster after turn ?

Reading this, you are doing it wrong. :eek: :) Learning to drive a tired suspension at speed is very educational. You have to plan ahead and keep in mind what your car will and wont do.

Drogos 05-23-2012 09:47 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I know you are trying to help and I do appreciate any feedback so please don't get me wrong but you are stating the obvious. When I said: "when you go to hot in the corner" I am pretty sure I made obvious that I made a mistake by entering the turn little too fast......so let's get over this part.... now if your suspension is well balanced and neutral and is not rolling to much that speed which you can take the car through the corner will be little faster right, so overall the whole adventure will be safer. The car will be more predictable at the limit so no, while I might not have a lot of experience on the track, I don't agree with you that "Stock suspension will work well when you pick the line....."

I don't go to the track to play nice and enjoy casual drive by. If I wanted to sight see the track I would take my wife's outback or better yet my neighbor's Buick...since stock suspensions are working so well in sticking to the line.
I am playing nice on the street. When I go to the track I will drive at the limit or close to it because I want to learn how to be a better driver. Track days are way to expensive and involve a lot of time, effort and money and are not often enough if you ask me so yeh I will push it and yeh I will enter that corner little too fast at times. Don't get me wrong I am not some maniac that is black flagged all the time:) I did my time on the track in Civic, then mazda 6 WAGON, now legacy ...all stock so I can tell you all you want about how well stock suspensions are holding the line :)

My goal is simple. I want to go faster on the track, the current suspension can only do as much. I am on the budget so I want to TRY with minimal investment and see if that helps, that's why I asked about sways. Yeh I know quality coilovers would make a difference, that's obvious isn't it?

When it goes to instructors and my statements about Putnam park...yeh REALLY I did drive with instructor in his race prepped mustang GT to show me the line and then we jumped into the legacy. After few laps of his instructions I was getting pretty fast on the track and he was very confident both in me and the car but even he mentioned that while suspension is surprisingly well balanced, I am reaching it's limitations. So there you have it. I can go with springs that are not really matched with my shocks. I can do close to $1k in Koni swap or I can spend $1.8k on tarmacs...or I can spend few hundreds on bars and see if that works for me. You tell me what to do. Yeh, I know I should slow down. See, I don't want to slow down though. Let's just assume I want to maintain my speed but have little bit more confidence in the car.

On a different note. I just came back from Gingerman Raceway and I absolutely butchered my left front tire. Please look at the attached picture. Obviously that tire sees the biggest stress on the track, still seems like a lot of wear. I am not sure if those tires are way past the best days or is suspension so soft and mass transfer is so dramatic that front tires just can't take it. Any thoughts highly appreciated. It just seems that tires are taking way more stress than they should. No I didn't check my alignment and yeh I am aware I should. I am waiting for camber bolt to arrive and I will do everything then. Car is holding line at any speed niceley so I am assuming alignment is at least close to acceptable.

StoplightAssassin 05-23-2012 10:14 PM

Star Specs will chunk if you overheat them, as you've found out. Once they get greasy, back off for a couple laps.

Adding negative camber will help with the wear on the outer edges of the tires, but adding too much up front on the stock suspension will result in an unpredictable handful when driving and racing. There's no way to adjust the rear camber stock. You can get some negative camber in the rear by lowering the car, which will also allow you to run more in the front and keep the handling balanced. The best option for adding negative camber in the rear are the whiteline adjustable control arms.

Drogos 05-23-2012 11:11 PM

I just ordered whitelines yest. Was planning on going -1 camber all over. Sounds right ?

scoobyscoodle 05-24-2012 01:06 AM

If your rear suspension is stock you will not be able to adjust camber in the rear. In the front you should match the rear or go a little more negative. You can get up to about -1.5 in the front with aftermarket camber bolts.


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