Scooby570 Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Hey guys, I've researched nearly everywhere to find a solution to this problem. First off I have a 2009 Subaru Legacy 2.5 5 Speed with roughly 130K miles on it. For over a few months I've been having poor acceleration between all the gears. I've been getting a "speed sensor" code and upon more research It turns out the MT doesn't have a "speed sensor". The speed sensor is connected to the ABS sensors (I heard this from the dealership tech) I replaced all the plugs, plug wires, all 4 ABS sensors, air filer, cleaned the MAF and all sorts of trouble shooting. I've even disconnected the battery a few times to reset the ECU to see if it can relearn normal conditions. I have no where else to turn. It just wont accelerate, especially up hills even when my foot it to the floor and in 3rd gear going up a hill. Any help on this issue would be greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyJagaru Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 I don't know if this is relevant to Subaru, but I had an old car that was getting an ABS code and it was caused by a worn wheel bearing. I guess the wear was so bad the sensor wasn't close enough to pick up the pulses from the encoder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby570 Posted December 3, 2014 Author Share Posted December 3, 2014 I'm glad you mentioned that. I actually had all the wheel bearings replaced (both rear at once and the front separate) Even with the new bearings it still doesn't want to accelerate. I'm also getting terrible gas mileage because I have to floor it everywhere to even remotely get it up to speed. So i think this might rule out fuel pump? or any other fuel related issues. I'm not entirely sure on this either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheelbuilder_25 Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Does it rev OK when you're not in gear ? Not to be smart, but is the clutch slipping ? I'd check for a bad cat/O2 sensor, MAF/MAP or drive by wire issues, but I would think those would throw a code. Is it a PZEV, and up to date on the recalls for ECU and catalytic converter ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby570 Posted December 3, 2014 Author Share Posted December 3, 2014 Does it rev OK when you're not in gear ? Not to be smart, but is the clutch slipping ? I'd check for a bad cat/O2 sensor, MAF/MAP or drive by wire issues, but I would think those would throw a code. Is it a PZEV, and up to date on the recalls for ECU and catalytic converter ? It revs fine when not in gear. I suspected a slipping clutch but that would indicate the rpms to accelerate and the car not to, correct? the car does not feel like a slipping clutch nor do I smell a burning clutch due to slippage. It is a PZEV and was recently in to replace the Catalytic deficiency for the recall. I haven't read about the ECU issue do you have any information on this off the top of your head? I've ordered both O2 sensors a couple days ago from Rock Auto and I'm waiting for their arrival to troubleshoot this issue even further. I too also thought a code would be thrown for the MAF DBW MAP but i only had the code P0500 (Speed Sensor) it hasn't come on since i replaced the ABS sensors and such Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheelbuilder_25 Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 The ECU reprogram was supposed to go along with the cat replacement. There had been 2 updates before, but this is the most recent one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEE-OTTO Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 There are 5 speed sensors total 4 in the wheels and 1 centrally located in the trans tunnel firewall area, have you checked that one? Also have you checked the Throttle body ? Any CELs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby570 Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 Wheelbuilder: had the ECU reprogrammed and the CAT replaced for free at the dealer since it was a recall. I assume they reprogrammed the ECU correctly since the car kept stalling when coming to a stop until the ECU started to re-learn. GEE-OTTO: I have not checked the sensor centrally located in the trans tunnel firewall area. Actually I was not aware of this sensor. I guess it 's a subaru only part? I've not seen it listed anywhere as aftermarket OEM replacement. As far as CELs, about 900 miles ago, threw a CEL for speed sensor A P0500 and the odometer was showing Er SS with Check Engine, Traction Control lights on and Cruise blinking. Tired of getting the P0500, since it was happening very frequently, I replaced all 4 ABS/VSS then cleared the code. 150 miles later it threw P0500 again, I reset it by disconnecting the battery for 30 minutes, 400 miles after that, threw a P0301 Cylinder 1 misfire. I cleared the code, cleaned the throttle body, then changed the upstream 02 sensor (haven't had the chance to change down stream yet). its been about 200 miles now and no CELs just crappy acceleration, hesitation, and poor gas mileage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexi Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 If the p0500 comes back, I'd be curious to know if you have any abs codes stored. Regular scantools can't see "C" codes/abs codes which might help narrow things down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEE-OTTO Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 So the P0500 is the central unit as P0501/2/3/4 would mean its the sensor in each wheel . I had this problem on my 09 LGT kept trying to track down a wheel sensor with the P0500. So your ECU uses 5 inputs for ABS/Speed 4 wheels and the one on your gear box, my bad i had to look back at my pictures. Its on the rear of the gear box (5MT). I would get a random P0501/2/3/4 then P0500. Mine turned out to be a damn mouse that chewed the wired in half. But I talked to my Subaru Tech buddy at Stohlman and he said to check that sensor. P0301 as well? Sounds like you are going through it with this car as of late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby570 Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 Yeah P0500 is all I would ever get and originally I thought it would be a sensor on the trans. When I tried looking for a part # at http://parts.subaru.com/ all i could find was part numbers for the sensor for the automatic trans. Eventually I gave up and figured it was all handled by the ABS/Speed sensor. Asking the local Subaru dealer parts guy, he said the '09 Leg does not have one on the trans for the 5MT. I think the P0301 was somehow tied to the P0500. I checked the plugs after it happened, actually I just changed them like a month ago. All the plugs looked good and I regapped them from .040 to .044. Did this just because .044 is the pre-gap for the plug even though .040 is in the accecptable gap range. You could definitely say that i'm going through it. Friggin tired of it is really what it is. The car drives like crap. Can't pass anyone on the highway especially if there is even the slightest incline. I'll check the sensor tonight. Would you happen to have a pic of where it's located? I know there are two sensors on the side of the trans, driver side if I remember. One is possibly the backup light sensor, the other the nuetral sensor switch??? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexi Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Not sure if you've checked the FSM at all, but here's a bunch more troubleshooting steps to check for the wheel speed sensor. Like I said, you can only see these C codes with a subaru select monitor, regular code readers won't pull these. Best you'll get with a regular code reader is a generic p0500 which doesn't narrow it down much since there's 4 sensors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexi Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 1 more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby570 Posted December 5, 2014 Author Share Posted December 5, 2014 Thanks for the pics of the FSM. I do have a FSM on CD, got it off of eBay but I was not really impressed with it. I will see if what I have on CD matches what you posted just to give me an idea of how good my FSM really is. When I looked at the FSM I have have, I looked at a section titled "Engine Trouble in General" and looked at the section specific to hesitation and poor acceleration. It said check for vacuum leaks. I also checked the section on ABS and it was similar to what you posted from the FSM. The abs codes I knew I needed a better code reader than what I have which is a $40 Autel. Don't think I can read the C codes unless I bring it to the dealer or if my mechanic has a subaru specific ABS code reader. Thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEE-OTTO Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I dont have a pic as the wire that was chewed was in the front harness When you replaced all 4 sensors where all or rather had you pin point the bad apple first? those are they type where you really dont want to touch them unless they fail. Typically the problem is the bearing is wearing out of tolerance and the paddles dont engage with the gear properly. Are you sure you dont have a bad bearing? Do you have the original sensors? You are right about the central speedo my bad. Also you can read the C code I had P0500 and C0102 you just need to use the following button combo: Code Reader Thread 1. Turn key to "ON" 2. Light switch to "ON" 3. Press trip/odo 4 times 4. Turn light switch to "OFF" 5. Press trip/obo 4 times 6. Repeat 2-5 two more times The code displays on your odometer screen. The first codes shown are P the next are C. Once they appear just press the odo button to cycle through them all. I read you cant read that C code that is the key to this problem it will tell you which wheel is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby570 Posted December 5, 2014 Author Share Posted December 5, 2014 I never did locate which sensor was bad, reason being is that the FSM (if I correctly remember where i read this) gave steps for testing the sensor and it involved jacking up the car, hooking a multimeter to the ABS/VSS wires one wheel at a time and spinning the wheel to get a reading. The voltage on the meter had to fall within a range otherwise the sensor would be bad. I thought it would have been best to have two people to do this, one to spin the wheel, the other to read the multimeter. At the time it was only me so I bagged it and bought all 4 sensors from Rock Auto. It was under $200 shipped and I felt it was worth the money. Unfortunately I got rid of the old sensors. I was so sure this would solve it I just tossed them. I'm pissed I did that. I don't think I have a bad bearing but anything is possible. My mechanic replaced both rear hubs about 2 years ago. A year ago I replaced both front hubs myself. One front hub is from AutoZone (DuraLast) the other from Rock Auto (Moog). The car is quiet when driving, no wheel bearing noise that I can hear. One thing that I notice is that I can get the car to hesitate if I corner hard to the right. After I come out of the corner, the car noticeably stutters/hesitates/surges and then it clears up and goes back to being sluggish with poor acceleration. Funny how things work.... This morning on the way to work the ABS/speed sensor threw a code. The standard issue CEL indicator lights came on... Traction Control, Check Engine, Blinking Cruise and to compliment those the ABS light and Er SS on the odometer. I connected my code reader and had a P0500 Vehicle Speed Senor A and my radiator fans were on high (Not sure why the fans come on but they do with the P0500.) I'll run through the button sequence you gave listed and see if I can pull the C code. Glad you gave me the combo. Hope this gets me to the bottom of this. THANK YOU! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEE-OTTO Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Yeah the turn in followed by the Code throwing is pointing more towards the bearing. There is a history on these forums of users replacing bearings and the bearing gear doesnt interact with the paddle on the ABS sensor properly. I think this might be your problem, cone you pull the C code youll know right away. The fix will be to replace the bearing which may be a bummer but you've had them out once so hopefully no seized bolts lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby570 Posted December 5, 2014 Author Share Posted December 5, 2014 The turn in is followed but the stutter/hesitation. When you down shift to 3rd to get back up to speed after the corner, the RPMs get up to around 3200 then it hesitates 2 or 3 times as the RPMs slowly climb to about 4K. Shifting into 4th it then continues to bog along its merry way but no CEL. This morning, the CEL came on when I was cruzin straight and stead around 45 mph, up hill in 4th which is bizzare but it normally happens that way.. I'm at work now but will check for the C codes when I get out. If it points to the front I'm willing to bet its the Autozone hub which is disappointing since it was the same price as the moog but it may have been over priced to start. hope that ant-seize works when it comes time to remove those bolts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexi Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I had heard that you could check "c" codes with the odometer screen but I wasn't sure if that was true, thanks for the info otto. Considering all that you've done to try and fix the problem, I do agree that it sounds like a bad wheel bearing. I've heard magnets can be expensive, so maybe that's one area where aftermarket wheel bearings skimp on, and the wheel speed sensor can't get a proper read. Or maybe the bearing itself is bad based off some of the symptoms you've described, which might might be causing vibration or something else like that making it hard for the sensor to get a proper read. Keep us posted, I'm interested to see what happens since you've done almost everything to try and resolve the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby570 Posted December 5, 2014 Author Share Posted December 5, 2014 I'm glad Otto mentioned the odometer screen trick. I was about ready to call the dealer and prepare to pay out the a$$. I just can't afford another bill right now! Apexi, you mentioned vibration might be a possible cause. I would like to know if that is a real possibility. Reason being is that I'm wondering if a warped rotor, out of balance tire, or slightly out of round rim could cause a vibration. Other thing I was thinking is if it's possible that the hole where the sensors bolt into has anything to do with it? what if the hole is filled with crap at the bottom where the tip of the sensor reads the hub? I'll definitely let you know what happens. thanks for all your help so far. Really didn't think things would point in this direction. Thought it might be something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexi Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 No, to be honest I don't know if vibration could be a real cause. I just wonder if the wheel bearing being bad, could somehow cause the sensor to not get a good read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEE-OTTO Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Yes an out of balance tire will kill a sub-par bearing and like Apexi said the cheaper hubs for our cars have bad magnets. Also if the eye hole where the sensor bolts in is gummed up that could cause a problem. If the hub gear comes out of true at any point over 5 MPH its causes the CEL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby570 Posted December 5, 2014 Author Share Posted December 5, 2014 Looks like I have some work ahead of me this weekend but it will be well worth it if I can get "The Leg" (as I call it) back to 100%. If the eye hole is gummed up, is there any good way to clean it out without removing the hub? Also what would you use to clean it? Brake cleaner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEE-OTTO Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 brake cleaner but the gunk wont stop the paddle from interacting with the magnet/gear and that area accumulates little gunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby570 Posted December 6, 2014 Author Share Posted December 6, 2014 Well last nite it tried to pull the code from the odometer and it did not work. Maybe my car doesn't have that feature? I tried multiple times , first time tried was when I has the Err SS on the odo, tried several times and no luck so i started it up and drove to the store and the Err SS went away but still had the cel light on. I tried it in the parking lot at the store but still no luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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