Ultra High Performance All Season Tires

[outahere]

For those of you who have some interest in the tire biz, here are two older but still relevant articles on UHPAS tires.

 

http://www.tirereview.com/Article/59495/gaining_grip_with_added_demand_allseason_uhp_market_going_nowhere_but_up.aspx

 

http://www.tirereview.com/Article/80573/follow_allseason_uhp_trends_for_added_profits.aspx

 

"According to Bob Abram, Yokohama product planning manager, sales in the all-season UHP segment passed summer UHP tire sales in 2007, and they haven’t stopped growing since. He notes the segment’s current sales could double in less than 10 years."........................................................

 

"Continental, a relative newcomer to the all-season UHP segment, entered the fray in April 2009 with the release of its ExtremeContact DWS. “The launch has been very successful,” says Travis Roffler, director of marketing. “We really built a tire with the needs of the American consumer in mind – mileage and a quiet, comfortable ride, while not giving up any level of performance.” ....................................................................

 

“With regard to keeping up, I think most manufacturers now understand that they have to take their all-season UHP technology as seriously as they take their flagship summer UHP tire technology,” Abram says, noting Yokohama’s Avid ENVigor and Advan S.4 offer what the tiremaker believes to be significant performance and value upgrades from most OE and replacement offerings. “We might even see a marketing priority shift over time, with summer UHP tires getting replaced by all-season UHP for the top billing.”

 

"Yokohama’s Abram says ............The all-season UHP segment is the fastest-growing in performance tires. By choosing not to compete, a dealer is choosing not to participate in the future.”.................................

 

"Former all-season UHP tires, while improving traction over their summer counterparts, were lacking in the areas of handling and performance. Because of constant technological advances, however, this is no longer the case, says Bill Bainbridge, marketing director for Hankook Tire America..........................Five or six years ago, the trade-off wasn’t that favorable,” he says. “You either got traction and you didn’t really get a high level of performance, or vice versa. Today, technology and versatility are driving the market, and that makes the all-season UHP tire a better product. Generally speaking, every manufacturer’s technology in that segment has advanced a lot over the last three or four years.”

[outahere]

Here is another good article on the Summer vs UHPAS tire debate:

 

http://www.tirereview.com/Article/86588/weighing_summer_vs_allseason_uhp_tires.aspx

 

"..........Consumers – and a shockingly high number of tire company sales staff – are under the mistaken belief that all-season tires offer better damp-road grip than summer tires.

The truth: All-season tires trade damp and dry grip in exchange for some (albeit limited) mobility on snowy roads and in well-below freezing temperatures..........."

[JoeFromPA]

Good stuff. A few thoughts:

 

1. Continental had the contiextremecontact out for a long time before they introduced the DWS product. The older tire was considered a UHPAS.

 

2. UHP a/s tires make sense to me as someone who wants sufficient performance for everyday combined with modest flexibility in light snow AND low temperatures. I live in PA - do I want to run snow tires ~5 months a year when we're in freezing temps? No. I want a tire that does well in late fall and early spring. Such a tire is neither a snow tire nor summer tire. And since all-seasons remain sufficient for my needs the other 6 months of the year (compared to how winter tires function in summer and vice versa), they fit my needs well.

 

Additionally, look at Michelin. Their new pilot sport a/s are rated for 50k miles in many performance sizes. And you are getting 96% of the performance while going quite a long ways. I will say that I have 42k on my Honda Civic's michelin pilot exalto a/s (high performance, not UHP) and they are still going strong despite alot of beating....the value I've gotten out of them makes up for alot.

[CTATV]

I still am happy with my Pirelli Pzero Nero all season tires on my car.

[rubberman]

Here is another good article on the Summer vs UHPAS tire debate:

 

http://www.tirereview.com/Article/86588/weighing_summer_vs_allseason_uhp_tires.aspx

 

"..........Consumers – and a shockingly high number of tire company sales staff – are under the mistaken belief that all-season tires offer better damp-road grip than summer tires.

The truth: All-season tires trade damp and dry grip in exchange for some (albeit limited) mobility on snowy roads and in well-below freezing temperatures..........."

 

The basic points that Mac is making in the article are somewhat valid, but there's some assumptions & generalizations being made that need to be clarified. Evreyone needs to decide on their individual needs / mix of operating conditions and make a more informed decision... (ie AS traction or max summer performance).

 

The compound choices on summer only tires are making the tire optimized for temps above freezing, and as a result they are able to take advantage of improved damp & dry grip. Also remember that there's a difference in damp grip & hydroplaning resistance: damp surfaces have a very thin water layer on the surface which doesn't require lateral tread features or sipes (simple or complex shaped biting edges) to break through that subtle layer, the actual "grip" qualities of the rubber allow it to adhere to the road quite well. The other situation involving deeper water or hydroplaning resistance comes into play with both compound choice & water evacuation: if the tread pattern can clear the water, then the rubber can make contact and go to work, but if it can't make contact, then grip will suffer.

 

I don't necessarily agree that there's only a handful of days in SC that summer tires would be better than AS tires. Different needs for diff drivers of course, but in my experience I'm dependent on my UHP AS tires to provide adequate traction & control in more than a handful of snow/ice days during the year. I frequently visit the local mtns where lingering snow/ice is around and summer tires would not do the job, both because of the compound & temp limitations, but also based on tread design. I also frequent areas for kayaking during the summer or winter that require a bit more soft soil / dirt road / mud traction than a more summer oriented tire is meant for (summer designs typically use high surface area designs = mostly solid tread surface for more road contact instead of lateral grooves / sipes / circumferential grooves such as in AS tires.

As I stated, a tread compound with a lower glass transition temperature (ie lower temp operating range) is more helpful to me year round vs swapping tires in later spring / summer. Mac mentioned the glass trans temp, but fails to identify the overall shape of the rubber response curve as it approaches it's glass trans temp. It's not a subtle change for grip vs temp as it approaches the low temp pt, it's a bit gradual as the temp drops and then goes more exponential (ie steep dropoff) so the change is significant & noticeable when you attempt to use the tire beyond it's intended temp range. I needed single digit Farenheit temp performance this past winter & summer tires would not have provided it. The year round mixed condition traction needs & treadwear mileage requirements dictate my choices in tires more so than anything.

Any other questions, feel free to fire away. If I don't know something, then I'm not going to give a crap answer. Let the facts speak for themselves, and read as much as you can to make an informed decision based on your tire choice needs.

[krzyss]

Ok here I come:

 

My future problem:

 

Summer tires for central MA, daily driver, good wet and dry performance, quiet.

 

I do have Hankook V12 on one car and I do like them but...

Is it better to spend twice as much and buy new Michelin Pilot Super Sport?

 

I wish I had an answer.

 

Krzys

[shadowsports]

Good stuff. A few thoughts:

 

1. Continental had the contiextremecontact out for a long time before they introduced the DWS product. The older tire was considered a UHPAS.

 

2. UHP a/s tires make sense to me as someone who wants sufficient performance for everyday combined with modest flexibility in light snow AND low temperatures. I live in PA - do I want to run snow tires ~5 months a year when we're in freezing temps? No. I want a tire that does well in late fall and early spring. Such a tire is neither a snow tire nor summer tire. And since all-seasons remain sufficient for my needs the other 6 months of the year (compared to how winter tires function in summer and vice versa), they fit my needs well.

 

Agree!

 

I'm running UHPAS

 

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Yokohama&tireModel=AVID+ENVigor+%28W%29

 

 

The "W" speed rated version of this tire is UHP, "H" is just HP.

 

Stock suspension. I run a slightly taller tire 225/45/17. This fills the wheelwell a little more. Small (very small) hit in gas mileage. EDIT** Loved these tires. Wear and handling remain excellent. Noise after 25k unbeareable. Going back to RE760's

 

http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/yokohama/yo_avid_envigor_w_ci2_l.jpg

[outahere]

Tirerack completed a new test of UHPAS tires:

 

Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS Pole Position

Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus

Continental ExtremeContact DWS

Pirelli P Zero Nero All Season

 

The Potenza is a new model this year, the others are older models.

TR ranked the new Potenza #1.

 

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=147&cid=N193736&

[CTATV]

I like my Pirelli P-Zero Nero all seasons on my leggy

[GTTuner]

Forget the Yokohoma's. I had them, hated every mile. Also, FWIW, my spedo runs fast with the OE size and is dead nuts accurate with the 225/45R17's

[93turbo2]

Has anyone tried the new Falken Azenis PT 722 a/s?

http://www.falkentire.com/Tires/Azenis-PT722-A-S-22

[mk6933]

I currently have the Continental ContiExtremeContact and extremely happy with it. I will most likely get the DWS when I need new tires. For the price, life, and performance, nothing can beat it.

[GTPpilot]

I currently have the Continental ContiExtremeContact and extremely happy with it. I will most likely get the DWS when I need new tires. For the price, life, and performance, nothing can beat it.

 

 

What size tires are you running ?

I just put DWS's on a couple of weeks ago and am pretty disappointed.

Stock size though. Lower profile might be ok.

Already counting down the miles til the next set. I probably should have gone with high end General's or maybe the new Potenzas in the above reviews.

 

Winter could change my opinion of DWS's entirely though. Supposed to be really good in snow!!

[mk6933]

What size tires are you running ?

I just put DWS's on a couple of weeks ago and am pretty disappointed.

Stock size though. Lower profile might be ok.

Already counting down the miles til the next set. I probably should have gone with high end General's or maybe the new Potenzas in the above reviews.

 

Winter could change my opinion of DWS's entirely though. Supposed to be really good in snow!!

 

I have 225/40-18s. With the way I turn and drive in the canyon, the tires should give me about 30-35k. But since I have negative camber, the inside is more worn out then the outside.

 

I personally like my ContiExteremeContact a lot. Only driven in the rain. No snow here. Heard the DWS is better then the one I have.

[GTPpilot]

oooohhhh....I thought the ExtremeContact was the same as the DWS. My DWS has extremecontact on the sidwall also.

[mk6933]

oooohhhh....I thought the ExtremeContact was the same as the DWS. My DWS has extremecontact on the sidwall also.

 

Its different, but the DWS is an "upgrade", so it should be better

[scoobydoobie]

Have DWSs now, and RE960s previously. Will be switching back to RE960s once these are worn. The DWS simply do not inspire as much confidence in the turns as the RE960s did.

[rainman]

I like my DWS, great rain traction, quiet, great wear, suck in the snow. All seasons are a joke to me. Maybe it's because I was used to the snow tires traction and we had a late dusting of snow and tried to take a right hand turn and slid across the lane and kissed the curb...

haven't been able to break the DWS lose on a corner/turn though

[GTPpilot]

Have DWSs now, and RE960s previously. Will be switching back to RE960s once these are worn. The DWS simply do not inspire as much confidence in the turns as the RE960s did.

 

What about the new RE970's ?

[scoobydoobie]

What about the new RE970's ?

 

Not sure, don't have any experience with RE970s.

[stclark13]

I am having the re970's put on Monday i will post a review afterwards.

[blaze741]

Had the extremecontacts years ago. Great tire all around. My stock yokohamas are crap, so I'm looking for a suitale replacement too. I can't see myself spending 190/tire vs the 118/tire for DWS at 215 sizing.

 

I come from a snowy climate area, so winter performance is super important. I don't really want snows so the DWS may be the way to go for me.

[stclark13]

Not sure why everyone sweats the dws's so much... i hated them. Sidewall was to soft for an sort of aggressive driving. I was very dissappointed to because the original extremecontacts i had were great.

[scoobydoobie]

Not sure why everyone sweats the dws's so much... i hated them. Sidewall was to soft for an sort of aggressive driving. I was very dissappointed to because the original extremecontacts i had were great.

 

I don't hate mine, but otherwise that's pretty much how I feel about mine. Soft sidewall sucks.

 

The only advantage I've found that the DWSs have over RE960s, is that they are better in the snow. Considering how weak central VAs winter was last year though, don't think the switch was necessary at all.

 

Basically if you live in a climate with winter weather, but not so much as to warrant dedicated winter tires, the DWS are not a bad all season. Warmer climates without snow, there are much better UHPAS tire choices out there.

[SBT]

I like my Pirelli P-Zero Nero all seasons on my leggy

 

Could not stand the tramlining on the PZN and the CEC tires. Moved to MPS ASes and haven't looked back. Have a set of PRE760AS on my BD and really like the tire.