Vengeance68 Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Good afternoon fellow LGT'rs... I am getting ready to buy a new short block and have noticed there is not a lot of talk about cams. I am thinking of going with a Vigilant short block with forged crank and pistons and adding JmP's upgraded OEM based turbo to it along with EL headers and Zerolift TGV delete. I already have the AP tuner and Invidia catless DP... I am not trying to build a HP monster just something to have fun with and will be reliable and have some longevity. No track days for me anymore. lol My questions; Are there cam options?If so are they worth it on a 4-banger?If a different cam setup is not beneficial based on bang for the buck, where would a good place to buy a used set of decent condition full heads be?I believe my 05 5eat LGT has side feed injectors, am I right?If so, what do I need for the top-feed injector mod for the Zerolift TGV delete kit? (I am not planning on going high flow or changing my fuel pump...)What are good bang for your buck injectors? Thank you in advance... if there is a thread I missed on any of this please reference it. I do searches but the results are so convoluted I don't get the info I am after. V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starionesir Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 05-06 cars are all side feed. I'm running deatschwerks 850 side feeds and have had no issues and I'm right at 400hp. You can convert to top feeds but would need top feed tgv's new fuel rails, injectors and they do make fuel line conversion kit or you can make your own. If your not really searching for crazy power I'd leave the side feeds there. Its not real cheap to convert to top feed but if money isn't a issue then go for it. Also be careful with the composite tgv's. I've heard of them cracking. Me personally I'd go with one from IAG. As for cams if you not looking for big power leave the stock ones alone. Not worth the money especially if you sticking with the oem style turbo. Cylinder heads to pop up here sometimes so keep a eye out. Make sure any used set you get send them to the machine shop to get looked over. I never trust any used head till it gets the okay from the machine shop. Good luck with the build. I didn't see at first but you've listed getting a forged crank and rods. The crank really isn't needed at all and if you not looking for high power I'd stick with a brand new oem shortblock and call it a day. Or if you don't have heads just buy a long block and be done. Forged pistons only really should be used when and where needed. They are not really a daily driver application. Looks like you have a 5EAT if you don't have a upgraded valvebody make that one of your first upgrades before you do any power mods. Will make the transmission work better and last much longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vengeance68 Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 Thank you Starionesir. That is great info. I definately want to get rid of the TGV's and my understanding is they only work with top feed. I hope I am wrong about that. And yes, whether I re-uses my heads or buy another set they would go to a machine shop either way with the FSM specs... I saw Boxita's thread and no way will I go through the nightmare he went through. Again, thank you so much for the info. V Bringing the pain since 1968 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starionesir Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 You can get tgv deletes for both top feed and side feed. But if you were going to convert to top feed then you'd have to order top feed tgv's. Just wanted you to know that converting to top feed isn't just as simple as replacing the tgv's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTTuner Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 If I may interject......I STRONGLY recommend a set of 4032 alloy forged pistons. One bad tank of gas or a waste gate failure could crack a ring land on stock pistons......not to mention the integrity of the tune which is the biggest culprit. I say 4032 alloy because 2618 alloy is a drag/nitrous piston which gets brittle after several hundred cooling and heating cycles. Plus you can run a tight piston to wall clearance with 4032 (lower expansion) and have a quieter motor that uses less oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starionesir Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 For the op forged pistons would be a waste of money. He said he was not planing on running crazy power and there plenty of us running the stock pistons (with a good tune) with no issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vengeance68 Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 All good points and thank you for informing me of the IAG TGV side feed compatible deletes... that made my day The stock blocks new are $1600-$2000. The Vigilant blocks with forged crank and pistons is $3300-$3800. So yeah quite a difference in price for my budget. I know most have gone with the stock blocks so I'm on the fence with that. LOL I guess most of all the priorities are dependability/longevity, budget and then fun factor. I'm dialing in the brakes and suspension with new aftermarket bushings, sways, lines, etc... so it will be a better handling car. If I do the motor right it will have more power and longevity but not be the 6 month if I'm lucky street racer car pop my motor car. Thank you all again. Much appreciated... V Bringing the pain since 1968 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Thank you Starionesir. That is great info. I definately want to get rid of the TGV's and my understanding is they only work with top feed. I hope I am wrong about that. And yes, whether I re-uses my heads or buy another set they would go to a machine shop either way with the FSM specs... I saw Boxita's thread and no way will I go through the nightmare he went through. Again, thank you so much for the info. V Bringing the pain since 1968 LOL. I'm heading out to visit a shop on east valley today. why vigilant short block? never heard of them? what's your goal for the build? I ran DW 740 side feeds for last 30k miles. They have been great. buying bigger injectors and running them at a lower duty cycle doesn't help you. they are tuned to run at 90% duty cycle. you can get side feed tgv deletes. ask boxman. He was talking about doing conversions for existing cars - you send your tgv to him, he removes the valves, sends them back to you. As he's in the area, maybe there is no "sending". Or look on for sale section for tgv deletes. whether you re-use your heads has alot to do with their condition. if you had a HG failure, you can test them for flatness (i have tools for that). Also you want to check the valve lash while everythign is still connected (FSM specs are designed to be checked then). Once you start taking heads off engine, the clearances change. if getting shortblock, have you considered upgrading to long block? comes with heads already to go. 300hp is alot if you have a good tune. Any number of riders in my car can attest to the acceleration 310hp/335tq provides. Also, you need to change your oil more often and check the components more. Either you do it and you pay some pot heads to do it. Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vengeance68 Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 LOL. I'm heading out to visit a shop on east valley today. why vigilant short block? never heard of them? what's your goal for the build? I ran DW 740 side feeds for last 30k miles. They have been great. buying bigger injectors and running them at a lower duty cycle doesn't help you. they are tuned to run at 90% duty cycle. you can get side feed tgv deletes. ask boxman. He was talking about doing conversions for existing cars - you send your tgv to him, he removes the valves, sends them back to you. As he's in the area, maybe there is no "sending". Or look on for sale section for tgv deletes. whether you re-use your heads has alot to do with their condition. if you had a HG failure, you can test them for flatness (i have tools for that). Also you want to check the valve lash while everythign is still connected (FSM specs are designed to be checked then). Once you start taking heads off engine, the clearances change. if getting shortblock, have you considered upgrading to long block? comes with heads already to go. 300hp is alot if you have a good tune. Any number of riders in my car can attest to the acceleration 310hp/335tq provides. Also, you need to change your oil more often and check the components more. Either you do it and you pay some pot heads to do it. Hey, good afternoon Boxkita... Well as I have been reminded everything about these motors is bass-ackwards from my V8 days. So with some input from several sources and lots of reading I will go with; OE short block JmP upgraded stock turbo (if he is still doing these) TGV delete using my existing injectors unless they are buggered up The usual new stuff Oil pump, oil pick up, timing belt, gaskets, etc etc... Long tube headers with new up-pipe If I can find a set of good condition heads and take them to the Tacoma Napa that PIA and Tris uses I will build the motor on a stand and then swap it. Otherwise I will plan on some down time and take the whole kit and kaboodle to PIA and let them swap it for me. A lot of how I do this depends on my back and how much pain and how long I want to take. lol Thank you for the input, it is very much appreciated. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merc6 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Stock block people are usually not trying to road race their cars as much. They(we) tend to butt pucker over how much time, energy and money we just spent to get the damn thing running right again. 2005 Satin White Pearl Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT Unlimited 5EAT (Project Car) 2019 Agate Black Ford Explorer XLT 4WD (DD) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Stock block people are usually not trying to road race their cars as much. They(we) tend to butt pucker over how much time, energy and money we just spent to get the damn thing running right again. You haven't met Sgt.Gator yet, have you? Racing a stock block in his wagon for 9 years, or was that the other Oregon track rat? Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Hey, good afternoon Boxkita... Well as I have been reminded everything about these motors is bass-ackwards from my V8 days. So with some input from several sources and lots of reading I will go with; OE short block JmP upgraded stock turbo (if he is still doing these) TGV delete using my existing injectors unless they are buggered up The usual new stuff Oil pump, oil pick up, timing belt, gaskets, etc etc... Long tube headers with new up-pipe If I can find a set of good condition heads and take them to the Tacoma Napa that PIA and Tris uses I will build the motor on a stand and then swap it. Otherwise I will plan on some down time and take the whole kit and kaboodle to PIA and let them swap it for me. A lot of how I do this depends on my back and how much pain and how long I want to take. lol Thank you for the input, it is very much appreciated. Jason Before hauling everything to PIA & Napa, check out marktheguru.com in Kent. His shop is full of Subie madness. He might be able to get you out the door with everything for less than your peicemeal build. If nothing else, visit the shop and ask for a tour of the heads & cranks area. Dropped my heads off there today for analysis. Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starionesir Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 The OP never said he was road racing. He said no track days for him anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Every one says that. OP lives in same area as me. He doesn't know about lgt meets at the track yet. With all that suspension work an Autocross or drivers skills day is coming. Difference between a track car and a DD is a track car can get you to the track and let you run the whole day then limp home on your wasted brakes. A DD lets you limp along from anywhere. Overbuild = overjoy Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTBwrench Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Just to interject, why not get JMP's Custom40? IMO that's the best option for an "upgraded build". The billet wheel makes a difference! (Mine spools significantly quicker, and so long as my injectors can handle it, it'll pull almost all the way to redline). I agree with Boxkita. Years of racing mountain bikes (kind of the same concept when it comes to builds) have taught me that overbuilding is never a bad thing. My overbuilt XC bike never fails me, my marginally acceptable XC bike has. Not to mention, with some of us, what was once overbuilt will one day become underbuilt... MTBwrench's Stage 3 5EAT #racewagon 266awhp/255awtq @17.5psi, Tuned By Graham of Boosted Performance Everyone knows what I taste like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Sorry. Forgot which of the threads i was on. You dont need cams unless high dollar build. The jmp custom40 would be a nice upgrade too. Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vengeance68 Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Yes the JmP modified VF40 is the planned turbo for this build. I just hope he is still making them. I use to race and do track days but that is outside of my budget realistically and unfortunately. For me it is just going to be a DD with some punch and running improvements. I'll drive it on an OTS tune for break-in then get her dyno-tuned. I may even go with a 3 port boost controller. But I will definately be installing an oil pressure sensor from PLX Devices so I can monitor that as well as the current OE sensors I'm watching via the Kiwi2. Not going with forged and sticking with the OE SB will allow me to afford EL headers with wrap, TGV deletes, etc etc. Thank you all for the input I very much appreciate it. Tristan has also been contributing to this via text messages. I miss him on the forums. Have a great day, Jason Bringing the pain since 1968 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starionesir Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Good luck with the build. As far as I know JmP is still doing the turbos and have seen a couple of his here for sale not too long ago. My tuner prefers 3 port controller for tunability. Money well spent. I would look at swapping out the OE pickup tube for a killerbee or moroso one. Easy to do with the engine out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vengeance68 Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Yes sir the Killer Bee pickup is on my build list. As well as a 3 port boost controller. And yes, I am going to need Ms. Lady Luck on this one. LOL Bringing the pain since 1968 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quick4dr Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 JMP will have my BNR 16g as a core in the next few weeks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merc6 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 If my finances would cooperate with me, I would have sent my 46 off to him months ago. 2005 Satin White Pearl Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT Unlimited 5EAT (Project Car) 2019 Agate Black Ford Explorer XLT 4WD (DD) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTBwrench Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 I'm sending him a VF40 on Monday. Last I spoke to him he was looking for cores, so it may be a slight wait. However, it is 110% damn worth it. The custom 40 spools instantly! Oh, and JMP painted mine red for me http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/04/19429874ca4c4ea61eb87235b22e2fbf.jpg Good idea with the EBCS. It allows much more precise boost control than the stock BCS. That's because not only does a 3 port control how the wastegate opens, but also how it closes as well. Your tuner will thank you too, when you get it dyno tuned. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk MTBwrench's Stage 3 5EAT #racewagon 266awhp/255awtq @17.5psi, Tuned By Graham of Boosted Performance Everyone knows what I taste like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 if getting the 3port boost control, get turkeylord's barbed "T". It holds to 150psi, more than enough for any motor. Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quick4dr Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 my old bnr 16g is going to JMP for a core. im hoping within next 2 weeks. some lucky buyer will be able to get his custom 16g then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vengeance68 Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 So I am sifting through info and researching all my options. I am currently down to 2 choices. Both have pros and cons. I will not be doing the swap myself, my back barely handled my strut/spring install yesterday, and by barely handled it I mean I am in a butt load of pain last night and today and I could not have done it without my #1 son Chandler helping. Anyhow, going with a short block vs. a long block does not seem to differ much in overall price having someone else do the swap. Option one: East Valley Auto Rebuild in Kent, WA. For $6k less $1500 core refund. Pros: They offer 12 month/12k mile warranty, $1500 core refund, know they business for refreshing heads, have 23 years of experience with Subarus and they are local if I should have any issues. Cons: They mandate a 10k mile break-in period which is more miles than I drive in a year, told me removing banjo bolt filter screens is a bad idea and attempted to try and up-sell me on a P&P head job and upgraded cams after I told them "what" specifically I was going to do with the car, which btw is never going to see a track. I just want a zippy well handling dependable daily drive. Option two: Boxer Motor Sports in Florida... Have Casey build me a balanced and blueprinted motor with upgraded bearings Pros: Will build the motor to my needs and specs, has a known reputation for building good motors and pays for shipping of old long-block for core. Cons: Only offers a 3month/3k mile warranty and a $500 core refund I am torn right now between the two. All in all it will come down to price and who I am more comfortable with. If I go with option 2 I will have my old shop do the swap. The may not be the most knowledgeable about Subaru cars but they take care of me and warranty their work for a year. Anyway, I will update more later once I make up my mind. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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