lue Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I upgraded my brakes to ceramic hawk pads and slotted powerslot rotors front and rear. It still has that slight spongy feel to brake pedal and same average stopping power. Anyone else experience this with their upgrades or even stock system? I bleeded my brakes twice in one day and still no stiffness to the brake pedal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolksey85 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 How did you bleed them? IIRC, people claim better results with a vacuum bleeder over gravity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 did you bed the pads in properly? FWIW hawk ceramic pads are nothing special and i wonldnt expect much better than stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnetic1 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 bled the brakes or flushed? and with what fluid? Free Sonax Cleaner Deal http://www.brakeswap.com Carbotech, Hawk, PFC, DBA Rotors, Motul, Wilwood, Castrol... Great service. No bumping required ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Pads won't fix the LGT's spongy brake pedal. You'll need to upgrade the master cylinder and/or brake booster for that, and maybe the calipers as well. And those Hawks aren't much of a pad upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRoc7822 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 ^ what this guy said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZP Installs Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 With hawk ceramics you wont see much upgrade over stock. They do need to be bedded in following the hawk procedure. The cooldown aspect is very important. As for "spongy" feel this is a debate that has been going on as long as there have been subies. Ss lines, brake flush, and good pads will all contribute to a better brake experience. On my LGT when i was road racing it, i wore both brembos as well as stock calipers in the front and the pedal feel and braking abilities with all other factorsbeing equal, was very close to each other. Hawk HPS or Hawk HP+ pads are Our street pads of choice. -mike http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpghttp://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/141039922.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg http://upload.pbase.com/image/137566671.jpg 11+ Years Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Subaru Enthusiasts. Call directly as We carry almost every manufacturer now, so before you buy parts call us. AIM: AZP Installs | E-mail: paisan@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) | T-1 Certified Amsoil Direct Jobber "Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swine Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Ok, i dont know why this isnt more common knowledge. I also dont know why everyone in this thread didnt immediately say this. But, THE problem first and foremost for the spunginess of OEM LGT brakes is the oem master cylinder and booster. Change to STI units, dont change anything else, and you will have a completely new brakeing system. The pedal is firm, take up is minimal, modulation go from below poor to excellent. Regardless of what you may read, there are only 3 things you need turn your brakes from shit to great. 1) Swap to an sti master and booster. 2) Change Oem pads to a decent set of street pads 3) A good bleed just to be sure. Fancy fluid/fancy bleeding techniques NOT required. SS lines, fancy rotors, 1 billion degree boiling point fluid...for a track car sure, for a street car dont waste your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 all you need is #2 and #3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swine Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 all you need is #2 and #3 #1 changes the feel and mush by a multiple of 20 of #2 and #3, i wouldnt listen to white in this case.(as the OP found out, and anyone else who goes down this path will find out to) Pads and fluid simply doesnt cut it for the LGT. Sub par. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJuan Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 lue - Have you changed the brake fluid since '05? I changed my fluid and upgraded to SS brake lines last year and made a nice noticeable difference in pressure. As everyone else mention, the HPS will grip better over the ceramics. My wife's balls are delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nrw Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Make sure you keep your brake ducts unblocked.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swine Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 HA!^ Well played, you should be just fine if you do though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolksey85 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 #1 changes the feel and mush by a multiple of 20 of #2 and #3, i wouldnt listen to white in this case.(as the OP found out, and anyone else who goes down this path will find out to) Pads and fluid simply doesnt cut it for the LGT. Sub par. So you're saying what a multiple time race winner says about brakes is wrong? And that everyone else who has the OEM booster and master but upgraded lines, pads and rotors is doing it wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swine Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 So you're saying what a multiple time race winner says about brakes is wrong? And that everyone else who has the OEM booster and master but upgraded lines, pads and rotors is doing it wrong? i want to make sure we are on the same page bolk, but i am refering to pedal feel, removing the intial mush, pedal pressure, and modulation, not braking performance(what white suggested WILL improve performance, you can do more laps with better brake performance as things start to heat up). Exactly what im saying, no offense to white, but he wouldnt be the first time race winner that may have been behind the ball on a certain subject. What he suggested will provide the performance benefit you want, but not the pedal pressure, feel, and modulation that you know you are lacking. Look im sure you respect whites opinion, and for good reason. But in this case hes wrong. Or hey, if you think im wrong, prove how upgradeing to the sti units doesnt improve the feel and pedal. Im all ears. Ill be glad to explain why a pad change and fluid flush has negligable gains when it comes to improving "mush". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 not saying the cylinder and boost wont make a noticeable improvement. I'm positive it helps but I am saying its not necessary for the OP in THIS case. the right selection of pads, fluid bleed and the correct bedding process will get you %90 there. Im sure the OP isnt going to get that involved with improving his brakes considering his pad choice to begin with. so with that being said... all you need to do is #2 and #3 and bed the pads in properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swine Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 not saying the cylinder and boost wont make a noticeable improvement. I'm positive it helps but I am saying its not necessary for the OP in THIS case. the right selection of pads, fluid bleed and the correct bedding process will get you %90 there. Im sure the OP isnt going to get that involved with improving his brakes considering his pad choice to begin with. so with that being said... all you need to do is #2 and #3 and bed the pads in properly. Im going to go on the opposite limb, im betting the booster/master makes 90% of the pedal improvement and the pads/fluid make up about 10%. The upgraded STI master/booster moves more fluid, more quickly, with less pedal stroke, hence why engagement of the pads happens more quickly with more feel. A set of pads wont change the actual engagement point on the brakes right? The same amount of pedal travel is required to move the pads to engage the rotors. The added bite and modulation from the pads will be noticed though. A fluid change/flush wont change the engagement either unless you have seriously dirty/boiled fluid or have air in the lines. Sorry fella's, if you really want to change your engagement and modulation, you are going to have to go after the source. This may not be a known fact, but you all do realise the LGT was equiped with smaller booster/master set-up then WRX's right? Lots of WRX boys upgrade to sti booster/masters. Ive owned 2 wrx's(and 2 sti's), i have never felt the need to overhall my brakes further then a pads and fluid change until i jumped into the god awful OEM parachute brakes of the LGT. When i did brakes on my LGT, i made sure to include a sti booster and master, and from the driver seat it literally feels like an OEM set of STI brembo's. Everyone who reads this, do yourself a favor when you go to do your brakes and research the sti master and booster swap. For me, it was the best $80 ive ever spent on brakes, and i cant believe more people dont support it on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZP Installs Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 not saying the cylinder and boost wont make a noticeable improvement. I'm positive it helps but I am saying its not necessary for the OP in THIS case. the right selection of pads, fluid bleed and the correct bedding process will get you %90 there. Im sure the OP isnt going to get that involved with improving his brakes considering his pad choice to begin with. so with that being said... all you need to do is #2 and #3 and bed the pads in properly. I am going to respectfully AGREE with you here! I have been track instructing for 10+ years and i am also race director for nasa. Weve tracked, installed and driven 1000s and 1000s of miles. Fluid flush and pads will get you 90% there. I now on an STi and the brakes are on par or LESS than my properly setup lgt was without the sti booster. Now my 05 CTSv is another story.... -mike http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpghttp://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/141039922.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg http://upload.pbase.com/image/137566671.jpg 11+ Years Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Subaru Enthusiasts. Call directly as We carry almost every manufacturer now, so before you buy parts call us. AIM: AZP Installs | E-mail: paisan@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) | T-1 Certified Amsoil Direct Jobber "Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swine Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Well hey maybe im missing something. Whats the flaw in my logic below? The upgraded STI master/booster moves more fluid, more quickly, with less pedal stroke, hence why engagement of the pads happens more quickly with more feel. A set of pads wont change the actual engagement point on the brakes right? The same amount of pedal travel is required to move the pads to engage the rotors. The added bite and modulation from the pads will be noticed though. A fluid change/flush wont change the engagement either unless you have seriously dirty/boiled fluid or have air in the lines. And i have to ask Weve tracked, installed and driven 1000s and 1000s of miles. Fluid flush and pads will get you 90% there. Are you referring to stopping power or reduction of intial pedal take up? If stopping power, i agree. Just so we are clear, im not just some keyboard jockey with an idea. I have countless track days in the south east, done the whole auto-x thing, and hell even won Road america and placed second at Texas World Speedway in my 2008 One Lap of America outing, i may not have quite the pedigree of white and AZP, but i also know what good brakes are, what they arent, and good understanding of how most car related systems work. Im not here to stir shit up, but i am here to boil things down to the truth. So far my results have proven the theory on my car, and many other peoples cars. This is the only forum you still hear people bitching about their brakes on a street car AFTER a pad and fluid swap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I tracked my LGT (only on street pads) and now I track my STI (originally on street pads, now on track pads). I've changed pads and especially bled the brakes many times. I don't race and don't have that level of track experience, but I do have a pretty clear sense of what I feel in the brake pedal. I'm with Swine on this. No street pad upgrade is going to do a lot for the sponginess in the LGT's brakes. They will help performance / fade resistance big time, but will do little for sponginess. On my LGT I once did upgraded street pads + new rotors + SS lines + fresh DOT4 fluid all at once, and it still didn't do much for pedal feel. It did a LOT for actual fade resistance / performance, but the pedal feel was still spongy. Fluid will only help if you actually have air in the system, or maybe if your current fluid is really old. Either way fresh fluid will only get to you to the LGT's baseline level of sponginess. It won't solve that sponginess. Track pads can do a lot for pedal feel, and that may be skewing the perspective of you track rats. XP10's on my STI feel awesome, definitely an upgrade in pedal feel over the street pads I've used. I imagine they would've felt pretty damn good on the LGT too, though I never tried such a setup. But this is about street pads. I never upgraded the calipers, master brake cylinder, or brake booster on my LGT, so I can't say from personal experience which of them contributes most to the spongy pedal feel. However I'm pretty confident than the MBC+BB are the weakest link, based on reports from people who have done such upgrades. It also makes sense. Nothing in the caliper would have the kind of give that would create spongy pedal feel in casual braking. Well, maybe the lines if they were super soft, but as mentioned SS lines didn't do much for my LGT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZP Installs Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Well hey maybe im missing something. Whats the flaw in my logic below? The upgraded STI master/booster moves more fluid, more quickly, with less pedal stroke, hence why engagement of the pads happens more quickly with more feel. A set of pads wont change the actual engagement point on the brakes right? The same amount of pedal travel is required to move the pads to engage the rotors. The added bite and modulation from the pads will be noticed though. A fluid change/flush wont change the engagement either unless you have seriously dirty/boiled fluid or have air in the lines. And i have to ask Are you referring to stopping power or reduction of intial pedal take up? If stopping power, i agree. Just so we are clear, im not just some keyboard jockey with an idea. I have countless track days in the south east, done the whole auto-x thing, and hell even won Road america and placed second at Texas World Speedway in my 2008 One Lap of America outing, i may not have quite the pedigree of white and AZP, but i also know what good brakes are, what they arent, and good understanding of how most car related systems work. Im not here to stir shit up, but i am here to boil things down to the truth. So far my results have proven the theory on my car, and many other peoples cars. This is the only forum you still hear people bitching about their brakes on a street car AFTER a pad and fluid swap. I think that White, you and I are all on more or less the same page. There is no doubt that putting in an STi Master will be better than the original one, no one is arguing that fact. However from a novice end-user street driven car perspective, Pads and Fluid will accomplish 90% of what they THINK is pedal feel at a significantly less cost (especially if they aren't a DIYer). As for pedal feel, the car I've driven with the best pedal feel? Chevy compact something or other in the 90s. That thing had a rock hard pedal feel but it stopped like crap. Our mantra is to get the best bang for our buck for our customers, and changing out the MC etc is not in our opinion a good use of resources for a street driven car. -mike http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpghttp://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/141039922.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg http://upload.pbase.com/image/137566671.jpg 11+ Years Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Subaru Enthusiasts. Call directly as We carry almost every manufacturer now, so before you buy parts call us. AIM: AZP Installs | E-mail: paisan@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) | T-1 Certified Amsoil Direct Jobber "Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZP Installs Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 On a side note, every does know the FLUSH INTERVAL is 2 years on Subarus right? -mike http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpghttp://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/141039922.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg http://upload.pbase.com/image/137566671.jpg 11+ Years Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Subaru Enthusiasts. Call directly as We carry almost every manufacturer now, so before you buy parts call us. AIM: AZP Installs | E-mail: paisan@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) | T-1 Certified Amsoil Direct Jobber "Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzymt Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Thanks for all the posting guys. Good info imo. I'm a 5yr AutoX'er and have autocrossed my 05 Outback (on R comp, coilovers, Stg2+), an 08 STi and an 11 Audi S4 and am now back to an 05 LGT. All of them brake fine - I don't "need" bigger brakes, but having the 08 STi and 11 S4 and then going back to an 05 LGT - wow, the brake feel really is mush & I really don't like it now. That said - I know I don't need the expenditure of bigger calipers, so I was going to just live with it. An $80 upgrade of the cyl for "feel" sounds great though. I think I will do that + SS lines, new rotors (stockers have probably 0.030" grooves already) & HP+ pads with superblue fluid. Sound good? [CENTER][URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18504"]Subaru Plug & Play Aux-in Mod[/URL][/CENTER] [CENTER][URL="http://www.jazzyengineering.com"]www.jazzyengineering.com[/URL][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swine Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 That said - I know I don't need the expenditure of bigger calipers, so I was going to just live with it. An $80 upgrade of the cyl for "feel" sounds great though. I think I will do that + SS lines, new rotors (stockers have probably 0.030" grooves already) & HP+ pads with superblue fluid. Sound good? It will blow you away, like i said im used to brembo's with hps's/hp+'s in my sti's, and the pedal in my legacy rivals the firmness and modulation of the brembo's on the street with addition of the sti master and booster. If you didnt know any better, anyone who has driven a lgt would be asking what BBK kit i had if they drove my car. You wouldnt have any gain from going to an actual bbk kit unless you were 15-20 laps into a track day on r-comps. Anything motorsports related on a street tire a massaged stock brake set-up with proper pads and fluid would be fine. I went with OEM rotors, Super Blue, stoptech pads, and the sti master/booster. Skipped on the SS lines, i personally think there is some more hokus-pokus going on there as well for newer age cars, but i dont have any REAL evidence there besides experience of doing it and being dissapointed and the idea that an OEM is completely capable of making a set of re-enforced OEM brake lines that dont ballon like everyone thinks they do. Atleast if i was an engineer working on a braking system, and i was choosing a line for the brakes i was building, that would be a metric that would rank very highly on the importance level. But on a motorsports car, it very well could be worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levish Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I've got pads / fluid and SS lines and feel is still spongy, it wasn't so bad when the pads were brand new but as they wore down the feel got worse and worse (it was never great). its the master cyl & booster I'm guessing like a few others have said *side note* i'm hoping the master cyl brace is a cheap fix, will find out later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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