ECUTek Reflash. 280 ft.lbs. 245 whp.

[SpankyLGT]

Retuned my 05 LGT 5MT LTD. yesterday at GRD Performance. Spent about 4 hours on and off on the Dyno. There are NO MODS whatsoever done to this car other than a facotry boost guage from a WRX.

Base was 211 whp 227 ft.lbs
Reflash only netted 254 whp. and 286 ft. lbs.

Boost was at 16 psi tapering to 10 by redline.
Timing peak was 29-30 deg.
AFRs were 11:1-11.3:1

Dyno was a DynaPack 5000

Temp was 74 deg. (Indoors)
Small house fan was cooling intercooler (Still heatsoaked)
3 turbo fans for Front end.

Dyno sheets will come once I get back to the shop to print them out.

Chris

[firedawgs]

I know my car took about 50 miles to really start feeling the difference after I flashed mine. But, 36tq is not bad from just a reflash. Give a day or two to adjust.

[Driver72]

Base was 211 whp 227 ft.lbs
Reflash only netted 254 whp. and 286 ft. lbs.



Chris


"Only" netted 254 whp and 286 tq? Only?


First off, either that dyno reads a bit high to begin with OR
your car is a strong runner to begin with OR a combo of BOTH.

211 hp
227 tq
completely stock is about as high as I've seen. Great numbers. Again, unless that dyno typically reads high. We'd have to see what other cars run on that dyno for comparison.

But either way, getting
43 hp and more importantly
59 ft lbs of torque from JUST a reflash is outstanding!!

Your AFR look great too.

Man you're living the high life right now.
Your car must pull like a freight train.
So you know, that's about 10-15 hp more than a stock WRX STI runs.

Nice work to the tuner.

[rc0032]

Why did it take 4 hrs, was this their first LGT? I have been looking at GRD and the EcuTek comes with 1 hr of dino tuning. Did they charge you for the other 3 hrs? How aggressive is this map?

Numbers look good!!

[SpankyLGT]

No we were screwing around and taking lots of breaks. They guys there are good friends of mine that I've know for years.

BTW a stock WRX makes around 190 whp and 200 ft.lbs. on that very same dyno.

[SpankyLGT]

"Only" netted 254 whp and 286 tq? Only?

I just came from an 04 WRX that made well over 400 whp on the same dyno backing it up with a few 11 sec. passes and 120+ mph. trap speeds.

[firedawgs]

I am pretty sure that the net numbers are crank not wheel horse. I can't image that much gain on tweaking only, no mods.

[SpankyLGT]

Those are wheel horse power #s.

[Boostjunkie]

I'll take those numbers with a grain of salt as it is a DynaPack, which reads high, but those are still some very nice numbers. What kind of fuel were you running. I'm assuming at least 93 octane. I just redynoed my car yesterday and it came out exactly the same as when I had it originally flashed. 230hp/252 tq. Baseline was 203hp/220tq IIRC. all on CA 91 octane. The ECU did seem to have leaned out the AFR from the original tune. They now vary between 11.2:1 to about 10.5:1. Still richer to compensate for the lower quality fuel.

Anyways, looks great, love to see what else your car will do with some more mods.

[KTM 525]

211 for a Legacy and 190 for a WRX are both high for stock pulls so this dyno may read higher than most on average. Regardless of that fact you did do the smart thing and do the baseline pull to compare the new numbers with. 43 hp and 59 trq is off the wall. Absolutely the highest gain I have read anywhere from a reflash to this point.

[boostsr20]

The fact that the numbers are high is not was he's trying to show you guys. Its the fact that he did a same day dyno from a TUNE ONLY and got an increase of 43hp and 53tq at the wheels. That is SICK! Tuning cars individually is where its at. Just wish I had a tuner closer to me. Great job guys!

[SpankyLGT]

Dyna Packs on average read no different than most other Dynos out there when they are all averaged together. Most, and I mean Most, of the Subaru tuners in the country either have a DynaPack 5000, Mustang, or a Dyno Dynamics dyno. And most have a DynaPack. But, on average a DynaPack 5000 reads about that same as most other Dynos. In the middle as far as results are concerned.

I will say that a DynaPack does read a bit higher than both the Dyno Dynamics and the Mustang Dyno. But lower than a DynoJet will. However all of the results I've had on this dyno, with 97 GSX, My 04 WRX, and My LGT, plus countless customer cars, the numbers from the dyno have repeated themselves at the track. And personally that is where I think it matters. Not what Dyno reads more or less, but wheather or not the car puts the times down that the Dyno represents. Starting a post with "I'll take it as a grain of salt cause it's a Dyna Pack" is a pretty bold statement that I hope you can backup.

Remeber a Dyno is just a tool.

[Unilat]

IMO, hard numbers are irrelevant for comparisons sake, other than for bragging rights. What's important is the percentage of increase / decrease and the shape of the power curve before and after modifying. This is assuming both baseline and post-modification runs are on the same dyno. These constant discussions of what dyno reads what is beside the point.

I'm a fan of using accelerometers to test before and after. These devices, if they are capable of logging, will give you real world acceleration curves.

YMMV

[KTM 525]

Bottom line 43hp 53 trq after ECU tune only on the same dyno is just about stage 2 numbers. If this could be duplicated (or even close) on a mail order type tune (like Cobbs AP) I think the ringer on the phone there would burn out.

[mf66]

Spanky,

Good

[mf66]

Spanky,

Second try. Good to hear that Tuan finally got an LGT tuned up. I have been working with him for a while and trying to get my 5EAT on a roller dyno. They have found one and now it is a matter of getting it all scheduled up. The guys at GRD have already installed the UP and crank pulley. I should get my DP from Lachute this week and will likley go full TBE when I can locate a shop. Anyone got a good muffler shop they can recommend ? I live in Oak Park.

Mark

[racerdave]

Very cool. Nice work.

Hmm... I might have to make a road trip someday to GRD. ;)

[sleepin gt]

are you sure youre using the same engine as the rest of us?? :eek:


EDIT: Its a sad sad day when i am jealous of the octane a man has readily available...

[SpankyLGT]

Edit to my first post about the WRX dyno #s on GRDs Dyno. Stock WRX makes 165-175 on thier dyno.

[SpankyLGT]

http://www.grdperformance.com/uploads/legacygtreflashstock2.jpg

Dyno Graph

[grapela]

I actually walked in to grd for the first time on saturday afternoon, I believe it was your car they were tuning. I wish I would have stayed around to see it. I was very impressed with the shop. I hope I can get back there soon to get the same work done to my car. I am still trying to grasp the subaru world as I am coming from a stealth where I was a little more crued in my tuning, manual boost controller exhaust and filter. Anyway do you guys ever get together for dyno days or meets, just curious.

[TRS]

Holly torque, Batman!...That's some kick in the ass. Now that I've clicked off 1K miles, I may pay GRD (http://www.grdperformance.com/index.aspx) a visit (after I get my "loan" back from the IRS).

[cartman]

What about exhaust gas temps after reflash? any #'s?

[SpankyLGT]

Averaged around 1550F and peaked aroun 1575F.

[Adam G]

http://www.grdperformance.com/uploads/legacygtreflashstock2.jpg

Dyno Graph

The graph says flywheel horsepower? :confused:

What did all the tuning and dyno time set you back?

[SpankyLGT]

An ECUTek custom reflash for a stock car is around 800.00.

Not sure why it says Flywheel HP. The only thing the Dyno chart was shown for was to show the difference between the stock map and the retuned map.

[HighPsi91]

I was very impressed untill I saw the Dyno plots. Looks like they hit the boost pretty hard in the low end giving you a nice peaky power curve that will give a great seat of the pants feeling. But the overall curve dont look good at all. I bet if you had pre flash track numbers, the post flash numbers wouldnt be much better.

[SpankyLGT]

Wes,

I'm not going to disagree with that statement. As a matter of fact I am still sceptical the car will perform. The one thing that I still notice in this car is no top end whatsoever.

The car is getting a catless downpipe and up-pipe next Saturday. Hopefully with those additions the car will carry a little bit better power up top. We'll all find out soon enough. I will have dyno #s to post any losses/gains.

I will also be hitting the track in a few weeks when it opens up. I may wait to see what the cars runs with just the Reflash before I throw more parts at her.

[HighPsi91]

Im sure tossing the cats will help the top end alot. I am hoping your results are good. Unlike my Talon I am going to watch and learn from all you guys;) I am in the process of forming a stategy for my LGT.. I need to keep it stealthy for the wifes sake though. Good Luck.

[Adam G]

But the overall curve dont look good at all.
The curve looks just like the stock one, only more of it. For just a reflash, the numbers are pretty phenomenal. Maybe you're expecting too much? If you're looking for more top end throw an STi turbo on there, but be advised that mod for mod, the LGT's turbo owns the STi's in the midrange. Frankly, I'd rather have the midrange, but that's just me.
I bet if you had pre flash track numbers, the post flash numbers wouldnt be much better.
I disagree. I'll take 50 extra peak wtq every time, especially considering how easy it is to get.

[Adam G]

The car is getting a catless downpipe and up-pipe next Saturday. Hopefully with those additions the car will carry a little bit better power up top.
I suspect that will be the case. Usually, less exhaust restriction = better breathing = more top end power.

[HighPsi91]

The curve looks just like the stock one, only more of it. For just a reflash, the numbers are pretty phenomenal. Maybe you're expecting too much? If you're looking for more top end throw an STi turbo on there, but be advised that mod for mod, the LGT's turbo owns the STi's in the midrange. Frankly, I'd rather have the midrange, but that's just me.

I disagree. I'll take 50 extra peak wtq every time, especially considering how easy it is to get.

Your right, I am probably being a bit picky. It is hard to argue with the gains for just a reflash. I just wish the pricetag was a bit better. I am used to Mitsubishi's where I could gain similar results with a few 'free' mods.

[Boostjunkie]

I asked ealier, but what kind of fuel was used? I did a little searching and the numbers posted are almost identical to the numbers posted by Godspeed for an AP tuned Stage 2 setup also on a Dynapack. That car baselined about 10hp/tq lower, but that's still a pretty heady result to be almost equal to a Stage 2 car.

[SpankyLGT]

93 Octane Mobil. We are still on midwest winterblends as well.

[LandShark]

HELLO?

"FLYWHEEL" figures are using SAE correction factors for normal conditions at the crank - not the wheels!


I gaurantee you there's no way a stock LGT setup (especially the stock, very restrictive DP/catback) is making 280 ft-lb torque at the wheels.

[SpankyLGT]

You are an idiot. The only reason Flywheel is even on there is becuase of the viewer we use to view the raw data from the Dyno. That is not an actual scan of my dyno sheet. It is an image from the raw data from the dyno. I can assure you those are not flywheel #s.

[panamajack]

So is there ever going to be any real world feedback? ie 1/4 mile, 1/8, anything. Would be pretty cool to see what it could do. Landshark, if those are crank numbers than they got a pretty weak ride. The basline plots are nowwhere near stock curves. I'll take that bet.

[LandShark]

Jackass, why don't you get a rep from GRD to join up on the forum here and post a bonefide claim that these are truly results at the wheels.

[SpankyLGT]

You need to calm the **** down. No one is talking tough here but you. You posted your results from your tune and mods, and I posted that I personally would not be happy with it and why. If I threw all of those parts and money for tuning and only got 252 hp out of a car that makes 210 average stock I would be furious. What I am merely pointing out is that for the money and parts invested the results sure are not worth it.

You are the one that freaked out here and made false accusations. Not me. Don't get pist at me get pist at your results and work to make them better. You should be making way more power than that. Especially on a DynoJet.

[panamajack]

Yo man chill out. We all know you are the Perrin mod king no need to start a war and call names. Would suck if the thread got closed before we get more info. A GDR rep would be cool though. Spanky you should hook that up.

[SpankyLGT]

Hey Spanky, your a tough talker sittin there in Shitcago, IL. Any plans to visit SoCal? Better yet, how bout driving your super stock LGT out west for a little showdown? Hell, my Stage 2 only has 250/270 goin on so you should clean my clock good, right?

Jackass, why don't you get a rep from GRD to join up on the forum here and post a bonefide claim that these are truly results at the wheels.


On the way.

[panamajack]

Ah well I was a second to late.

[LandShark]

Spankster, let's hear from GRD directly. Many tuners post directly here. They should join the club. Hell, once your claims are verified GRD will have em lined up for miles. Why invest a couple thou in mod parts when you can pull those numbers out of the ECU only.

Realize however, based on a reasonable drivetrain loss factor of 20% for an all-wheel drive vehicle, you are making 308 HP & 350 TQ on a stock setup. Do you really believe that Subaru is detuning the stock setup by 30-40% of max. capacity for reasons of longevity?

As for my wasted money, I feel pretty good having come very close to the legitimate claims posted directly by Cobb Tuning. They got 238 HP / 285 TQ on their Stage 2 dyno plot with all their own unnecessary hardware installed.

[SpankyLGT]

Realize however, based on a reasonable drivetrain loss factor of 20% for an all-wheel drive vehicle, you are making 308 HP & 350 TQ on a stock setup. Do you really believe that Subaru is detuning the stock setup by 30-40% of max. capacity for reasons of longevity?

Absolutely. The same engine makes 300 hp and 300 ft/lbs. at the crank with a slightly larger turbo and IC on the STI. A Reflash ONLY on an STI nets slightly more torque and 30 more HP at the wheels than what my car did on the same dyno.

[tuan]

Landshark,
Flywheel on the dynapack is the actual torque measured at the Hubs. What you have to compare is the just the before and after of the tune. 35 Hp to the wheel is not an unrealistic number for any reflashed Legacy. That's about the same difference for a stock Sti with a reflash albeit with less midrange torque gain on the STi. Unless you place a motor on engine dyno and than put it back on the car to run on a chassis dyno you can never accurately guess drivetrain loss. Even then its only valid for the that particular engine and chassis dyno, as we all know that every dyno reads differently. What is accurate however is the difference and that is all that is importante.
You can call all the shops with Dynapacks and they'll confirm that those numbers posted by Spanky are at the wheels.
Best regards,

Tuan Nguyen
GRD

[panamajack]

Tuan Nguyen
GRD[/QUOTE]

OW3ND

[LandShark]

Fine. I guess all the Dynapaks should be packed up and shipped back down under. How do they calibrate these things? Is it horsepower or kangaroo power?

Anyone who believes that a retuned stock LGT can make 280 ft-lbs at the wheels (and I mean honest to goodness torque not just a graph) is either very gullible, nieve or ignorant.

[SpankyLGT]

I am done with you. I'll have track results this weekend.

[tuan]

Landshark,

The calibration is not important. What is important is the repeatability. I'm gathering that you are arguing about the actual figures from dynapack vs mustang vs dynodynamics vs dynojets. They will all read wheel hp differently, even with in the same manufacturer. What is important and I can't stress this enough is that dyno must be repeatable. I can take a stock car off the dynapack and than put it back on the next day and it will measure about the same torque and horsepower. What might be your- just an example- 250lb/ft at the wheels might be the same as someone elses 270lb/ft at a different location. What is important is what you make stock and what you make after your modifications on the same dyno with all the same variables.

Cheers,

Tuan

[awdG35killer]

so...uh/....how 'bout them Lakers? they suck huh? :)

quick question. i know the AP sticks a device in the obdII port, how does EcuTek do theirs?

[tuan]

awdG35killer,

It's the same. You flash through the OBD2 port.

Tuan

[Adam G]

Fine. I guess all the Dynapaks should be packed up and shipped back down under. How do they calibrate these things? Is it horsepower or kangaroo power?

Anyone who believes that a retuned stock LGT can make 280 ft-lbs at the wheels (and I mean honest to goodness torque not just a graph) is either very gullible, nieve or ignorant.

You're putting way too much stock in that number. Not that its wrong, but you cant compare different dynos on different days in different conditions. Notice that this particular dyno put the LGT at 210 whp stock (IIRC), which is about as high as I've seen from any dyno. So it runs high, fine...that's still taken into account when you look at before and after reflash numbers. The important thing here is the differential between the before and after dynos, not the after peak numbers which apparently have your panties all up in a bunch. Life's a bitch, get over it.

And hearing someone from So Cal call Chicago "Shitcago" = hilarity

[stiffarmleft]

I noticed that you are running 16 psi of peak boost same as AP stage 2, but the stage 2 tapers off at 14 psi and you taper off at 10psi. How much peak and redline boost would be run with a catless downpipe, equivilent to AP stage 2, I assume the reason for the 10 psi at redline is due to the lack of a catless downpipe.

[Subietonic]

And a mod reminder here guys... keep the tone calm and the language non-confrontational.

All of us benefit from the dialogue... not all of us benefit from the name calling and personal attacks, so take it to PM if you must.

Back on topic - Spanky - what UP/DP combo are you going to be using? I'm sorry if I missed that.

SBT

[SC GT]

That's an amazing tune for bone stock. What are some other Ecutek custom tune numbers that others have achieved at Stage 1? I don't think anyone else has come close to approaching those kinds of percentage gains on a stock car.

[tuan]

SC GT,

Spanky was the first Legacy that I tuned. I was quite ummm shocked to see that I was able to make that much torque. Oddly enough it is about the same (midrange torque) as I would make on a stock STi with a reflash. Boost peaks between 16-17psi tapering off to about 12-13 psi by redline.

Tuan

[SpankyLGT]

And a mod reminder here guys... keep the tone calm and the language non-confrontational.

All of us benefit from the dialogue... not all of us benefit from the name calling and personal attacks, so take it to PM if you must.

Back on topic - Spanky - what UP/DP combo are you going to be using? I'm sorry if I missed that.

SBT

Perrin Down-pipe and probably the GT Spec headers w/up-pipe.

[awdG35killer]

awdG35killer,

It's the same. You flash through the OBD2 port.

Tuan

ah, thanks. do you use a device or something?

[mf66]

Spanky,

What track do you run at ? Any ones to avoid ?

Mark

[SpankyLGT]

ah, thanks. do you use a device or something?

The only thing outside of the OBD2 connector that it uses is a programming block switch that puts the ECU into utility mode. It uses the 2 connectors for reseting the ECU with a switch.

[Adam G]

Spanky,

What track do you run at ? Any ones to avoid ?

Mark
Byron's always treated me pretty well and I've run good times there. I went 13.7@100 in a stock '03 Mustang GT there. GLD is supposed to hook the best, but their tech is tough, so if you go with any fast cars without a cage, they're not going to get in.

[SC GT]

How's this for a challenge?

Since we've got a lot of Chicago members, and some skepticism regarding Spanky's numbers, why don't we have a Chicago member with an AP go to Tuan for an ECUTEC tune. Tuan can dyno with the AP and with the EKUTEC. If the EKUTEC tune fails to come within 10% of the numbers Spanky posted, then the member can get reflashed back to stock for free. If Tuan matches Spanky's tune, then the member pays for and keeps the tune, and then sells his AP in the classifieds.

I'd really like to see if Spanky just has one of those "exceptional" cars, or if Tuan can consistently match that tune. I'd also like to see how a Stage 1 AP does on that dyno.

[rc0032]

Spanky – How much does a dino run cost at GRD? Im stock and willing to do a run for comparison.

[TRS]

Their web site (http://www.grdperformance.com/dyno.aspx) quotes $150 for 3-5 AWD runs (add $25 for auto).

[highwaydrifter]

How's this for a challenge?

Since we've got a lot of Chicago members, and some skepticism regarding Spanky's numbers, why don't we have a Chicago member with an AP go to Tuan for an ECUTEC tune. Tuan can dyno with the AP and with the EKUTEC. If the EKUTEC tune fails to come within 10% of the numbers Spanky posted, then the member can get reflashed back to stock for free. If Tuan matches Spanky's tune, then the member pays for and keeps the tune, and then sells his AP in the classifieds.

I'd really like to see if Spanky just has one of those "exceptional" cars, or if Tuan can consistently match that tune. I'd also like to see how a Stage 1 AP does on that dyno.


Evidently you dont know how licensing works for ecutek... In flashing an ecu he would be using up one of his license keys (not cheap, say 6xx dollars). Even if he reflashed it back to stock he would still be out that license key.

So while that sounds good and dandy i dont think he would take the hit to prove a point, now if someone wanted to pay him for it that would prob be different.

And an ecutek is going to give you a better tune if the tuner knows what he is doing and has the right tools (wide band, dyno, etc).

No way a pre canned tune can beat a good tuner with the right tools.

[highwaydrifter]

oh one more thing..

any idea on the atmospheric compensation settings on the dyno were at the time of the run?

It would be logarithmic increase in power not a fixed number if the settings were to high..

[SpankyLGT]

I've already spoken to Tuan and he lead me to believe he will take that challenge. I'll let him come on here and say it himself.

[highwaydrifter]

more power to him!

[SC GT]

I've already spoken to Tuan and he lead me to believe he will take that challenge. I'll let him come on here and say it himself.

Cool beans!

[Boostjunkie]

I do love it when people put their money where their mouths are. Although in actuality, any good tuner will always be able to beat an off -the-shelf tune with a custom tune. So if the "bet" is that if Tuan comes up with better numbers than an AP tune, the car's owners pays for and keep the tune, it's pretty much a slam dunk.

[SC GT]

I do love it when people put their money where their mouths are. Although in actuality, any good tuner will always be able to beat an off -the-shelf tune with a custom tune. So if the "bet" is that if Tuan comes up with better numbers than an AP tune, the car's owners pays for and keep the tune, it's pretty much a slam dunk.

In re-reading my "challenge", I realize what I meant to say and what I actually said were two different things. I meant to say that I'd like to see Tuan get within 10% of Spanky's gains, not just his numbers. E.g., Spanky gained 43 hp (+20%), and 59 ft/lbs (+26%). In my mind, Tuan would be successful if he was able to get at least an 18% hp and +23 ft/lb over a stock baseline. For comparison's sake:

GRD ECUTek (93 octane)
211 hp and 227 ft/lb stock baseline --> 254 hp (+20%) and 286 ft/lb (+26%) after Stage 0 ECUTek tune.

Cobb AccessPort (91 octane)
196 hp and 219 ft/lb stock baseline --> 224 hp (+14%) and 248 lb/ft (+13%) after AP Stage 1, map v. 1.01.

PDX ECUTek (92 octane)
191 hp and 190 ft/lb stock baseline --> 225 hp (+18%) and 228 ft/lb (+20%) after Stage 0 ECUTek tune.

Harman Motive ECUTek (91 octane)
203 hp and 222 ft/lb stock baseline --> 230 hp (+13%) and 252 (+14%) after ECUtek'ing an otherwise stock LGT.

PDX has come close to 10% of Spanky's percentage gains, so it shouldn't be too hard for Tuan/GRD to do so. (I didn't realize PDX's gains were as good as they are when I typed the "challenge").

Unfortunately, the way it came out was that Tuan should come within 10% of Spanky's numbers, which would just be 229 hp and 257 ft/lb, which on GRD's dyno wouldn't seem too hard to do.

[Boostjunkie]

Thanks for posting the numbers in tabular form. Couple notes though. The Cobb tq number should be 248, not 252 and the most important note would be the fuels used in each case. The AP and Harman Motive tunes were on 91 octane. The PDX tune was on 92 octane and the GRD tune was on 93 octane. Interestingly and pehaps obviously, there seems to be some pretty strong correlation between fuel quality and the power numbers.

Another point of clarification. When you say within 10% of Spanky's % gains, I calculate that to be 249hp/280tq, assuming the same baseline numbers, or gains of 18%hp and 23.4%tq.

[racerdave]

And don't forget altitude (if those numbers are uncorrected)... Chicago's about 10 feet above sea level. ;)

[SpankyLGT]

And don't forget altitude (if those numbers are uncorrected)... Chicago's about 10 feet above sea level. ;)


692 ft. ;) So Cal is in a lower elevation than Chicago.

[tuan]

For the record I only made a 38HP gain on Spanky's Legacy. I will get involve a later this afternoon as this morning I'm a little busy.

Tuan

[SC GT]

Thanks for posting the numbers in tabular form. Couple notes though. The Cobb tq number should be 248, not 252 and the most important note would be the fuels used in each case. The AP and Harman Motive tunes were on 91 octane. The PDX tune was on 92 octane and the GRD tune was on 93 octane. Interestingly and pehaps obviously, there seems to be some pretty strong correlation between fuel quality and the power numbers.

Another point of clarification. When you say within 10% of Spanky's % gains, I calculate that to be 249hp/280tq, assuming the same baseline numbers, or gains of 18%hp and 23.4%tq.

Corrections and octane levels have been edited into my post.

Chalk it up to late night number crunching and goofing around with these numbers when I should have been working on my taxes.

[hadvw]

This is a cool thread! Can't wait to see it continue!

HV

[KTM 525]

For the record I only made a 38HP gain on Spanky's Legacy. I will get involve a later this afternoon as this morning I'm a little busy.

Tuan

In the original post to this thread he gave 211 hp as a baseline then 254 after tune thats 43hp. Baseline trq was 227 and after tune was 286 thats 59FT lbs. Regardless "only" 38hp is still respectable in my book. Just wondering how you guys come up with different numbers in the gain dept.

[SC GT]

The octane factor is really interesting. Has anyone dyno'd an AP, Stage 1, with the 93 octane map?

[highwaydrifter]

In re-reading my "challenge", I realize what I meant to say and what I actually said were two different things. I meant to say that I'd like to see Tuan get within 10% of Spanky's gains, not just his numbers. E.g., Spanky gained 43 hp (+20%), and 59 ft/lbs (+26%). In my mind, Tuan would be successful if he was able to get at least an 18% hp and +23 ft/lb over a stock baseline. For comparison's sake:

GRD ECUTek (93 octane)
211 hp and 227 ft/lb stock baseline --> 254 hp (+20%) and 286 ft/lb (+26%) after Stage 0 ECUTek tune.

Cobb AccessPort (91 octane)
196 hp and 219 ft/lb stock baseline --> 224 hp (+14%) and 248 lb/ft (+13%) after AP Stage 1, map v. 1.01.

PDX ECUTek (92 octane)
191 hp and 190 ft/lb stock baseline --> 225 hp (+18%) and 228 ft/lb (+20%) after Stage 0 ECUTek tune.

Harman Motive ECUTek (91 octane)
203 hp and 222 ft/lb stock baseline --> 230 hp (+13%) and 252 (+14%) after ECUtek'ing an otherwise stock LGT.

PDX has come close to 10% of Spanky's percentage gains, so it shouldn't be too hard for Tuan/GRD to do so. (I didn't realize PDX's gains were as good as they are when I typed the "challenge").

Unfortunately, the way it came out was that Tuan should come within 10% of Spanky's numbers, which would just be 229 hp and 257 ft/lb, which on GRD's dyno wouldn't seem too hard to do.


What you fail to understand is that with just adjusting dyno settings i could make that same difference on the same car with out touching a damn thing on it.

Hell even if you dont touch the dyno you could scew the gains up more then a few % points with the right settings and a bit of tuning.

[SC GT]

What you fail to understand is that with just adjusting dyno settings i could make that same difference on the same car with out touching a damn thing on it.

Hell even if you dont touch the dyno you could scew the gains up more then a few % points with the right settings and a bit of tuning.

Call me naive, but I'm assuming that the tuner will actually try to tune the car, not the dyno.

Also, I understand there are differences in dyno, altitude, build of the car, octane, etc. I think we all do. I think we all realize this won't be a perfect comparison. But, regardless, it will be an interesting comparison. Ideally, Tuan can dyno a single Leg GT with the stock map, the Stage 1 (93 oct.) map, and his ECUTek tune. If he wanted to, I'm sure he could do things to rig the results in his favor, and me being all the way in So Cal, I'd never know the difference. But I don't think he'd do that.

As to your last comment, isn't that the whole point? To see what kind of numbers Tuan can reproduce with a little bit of tuning?

And I'm aware of the license fees for ECUTek tuners. I'm also aware that if Tuan can reproduce Spanky's near-Stage 2 numbers with a Stage 1 tune, he'll have people lining up to get an ECUTek tune from him, and the private classifieds are going to be full of ads for AccessPorts from members in or near Chicago.

I didn't intend to call Tuan out or anything, and if that's the way I'm coming off, I apologize to him. He doesn't have to prove anything to me. I'm just amazed at the freakish numbers he put up, and regardless of whether he accepts this "challenge" in one form or another, I'm interested in finding out how much of those numbers is attributable to him, to Spanky's LGT, and to the dyno.

[tuan]

I'm sure I can come close to or better than Spanky's numbers. I'm just hoping that his car isn't some kinda factory fluke, but based on what a stock STi pulls on my dyno I don't believe it to be. I also promise not to manipulate the dyno to read higher. I'm not sure how I would do that but I promise not to :). I can also with 100% certainty that my tune will be smoother and more powerful than any off the shelf map.
My dyno does read a little higher than some others but I dont' think any higher than a dynojet. Only calibration I use is the SAE correction. You can expect about 10-15hp difference from a Mustang and 20-30 compared to a Dynodynamics.



Tuan

[tuan]

SC GT,

I take no offense to any your post. I know we all want to get to the truth!

[BoxerGT2.5]

I got a stage 2 93 AP GT in chicago. :D + some other goodies.

[highwaydrifter]

Call me naive, but I'm assuming that the tuner will actually try to tune the car, not the dyno.

Also, I understand there are differences in dyno, altitude, build of the car, octane, etc. I think we all do. I think we all realize this won't be a perfect comparison. But, regardless, it will be an interesting comparison. Ideally, Tuan can dyno a single Leg GT with the stock map, the Stage 1 (93 oct.) map, and his ECUTek tune. If he wanted to, I'm sure he could do things to rig the results in his favor, and me being all the way in So Cal, I'd never know the difference. But I don't think he'd do that.

As to your last comment, isn't that the whole point? To see what kind of numbers Tuan can reproduce with a little bit of tuning?

And I'm aware of the license fees for ECUTek tuners. I'm also aware that if Tuan can reproduce Spanky's near-Stage 2 numbers with a Stage 1 tune, he'll have people lining up to get an ECUTek tune from him, and the private classifieds are going to be full of ads for AccessPorts from members in or near Chicago.

I didn't intend to call Tuan out or anything, and if that's the way I'm coming off, I apologize to him. He doesn't have to prove anything to me. I'm just amazed at the freakish numbers he put up, and regardless of whether he accepts this "challenge" in one form or another, I'm interested in finding out how much of those numbers is attributable to him, to Spanky's LGT, and to the dyno.


The point of the last comment was this.

If the dyno was set in such a way (for atmospheric corrections, loading, or what have you) it would scew the results intialy on the stock run. Lets say by 5 percent. So if we ran a 100 whp pass and tack on the correction factor it would give us 105 whp. Now lets say we tuned it and now it is making 200 whp you would think that the amount of correction would stay the same correct? So now we would have 210whp. This isnt the case, if the dyno is equipped with a "weather station" the correction percentage could have changed on you, be it up or down.

Think of it as this, if you see a 20% gain in power over stock what portion of that percentage is based on the dynos correction algorithm? Hard to answer.

My point is this, dyno numbers mean next to nothing, anyone with half an ounce of wit in regards to dynos could turn a geo metro into a dyno queen with the settings that are aval on most dynos.

Just be weary and aware that dynos are complex machines and not simply a strap it on and run it and see what it puts out type of ordeal.


Oh and if i had to guess i would guess that the orginal dyno numbers were on a dyno that had some sort of correction factor added to it.

[tuan]

highway,
The only correction added was the STANDARD SAE correction. Every modern dyno should/does include a weather station, otherwise you'll see to much of a variation between summer months and winter months. You can see the raw data or uncorrected shows the same difference in gain as the SAE corrected value.
I can't imagine any tuner or dyno shop that would want to fudge data. You will lose all credibility with your peers and your customers.

Tuan

[KTM 525]

highway,
The only correction added was the STANDARD SAE correction. Every modern dyno should/does include a weather station, otherwise you'll see to much of a variation between summer months and winter months. You can see the raw data or uncorrected shows the same difference in gain as the SAE corrected value.
I can't imagine any tuner or dyno shop that would want to fudge data. You will lose all credibility with your peers and your customers.

Tuan

Yup SAE is SAE This is hijacked from a google search I came up with.
Correction Factor
A key element to producing comparable dyno charts on a global basis is the Correction Factor, SAE Standard J1349, which applies the following weather station data--atmospheric pressure 29.23, air temperature 77 degrees Fahrenheit and humidity 0 percent--to all tests. These exact figures allow apples-to-apples comparison of runs from different cars, different facilities, etc. So graphs with SAE-corrected power were made to this standard.

Now this is not to say it cant be fudged. I had the Camro on the dyno and we used a heatgun and waved it in front of the weather station to see if the theory was true. Yup the HP numbers jumped bigtime but as Tuan states why would someone do this?

[highwaydrifter]

why do manufactures overstate their hp claims all the time?

IT MOVES PRODUCT..

and if you are using a load based dyno you can tweak other settings besides atmospheric ones.

cant rem what they were right now but we were dicking around with them at a rather famous tuners shop one day to prove this very point... It was an awd dyno dynamics dyno as well.

Sleepy time now..

[sleepin gt]

can anyone BELIEVE how long of a post this turned into?? :eek:

[DeepFreeze2]

I think this is a great thread! More should be like this. Getting info from owners and the tuner(s) that work on the cars helps clear things up for those of us who are on the verge of making a decision on a modification. Myself included.

[SpankyLGT]

Made it out to the track Friday. Drove out to the Evo Vs. Subaru showdown. Made 4 passes total and I am not impressed or happy. I thought the car would go faster.

I have 2 complaints that need to be fixed before I take the car back to the track.

1. The Clutch Delay Vlave needs to go. BAD. I could not launch the car any higher than 3800-4000 or the clutch would slip all the way through first or I would have to pedal the throttle to get the clutch to engage all the way. So the best 60 ft. I could pull was the 1.90. I think if I had gotten more passes in I would've figured out a way to launch the car better. I am trying to find a braided clutch line that fits.

2. The rear suspension was squatting so bad that the guys from AMS said it almost looked like the front tires were off the ground. The front tires were also spinning badly. Spring blocks from Murray's (Ghetto, I know, but it works like a MF) in the rear will help with the front end traction problems.

Any way here are the time. Worst was a 14.2@98mph with a 2.2 60ft. Best was a 13.4@101.41 with a 1.90 60.ft. 2 other passes both 13.5@101.

ALSO!!!! The car does now have an up-pipe and a Perrin Down-Pipe fitted now. But has not been retuned yet. And the Perrin Down-Pipe leaks badly. I got one of the fucked up ones. They are sending a new one out.

[edmundu]

Those are some great times, and trap speeds!!! Kudos to you! That Ecutek tune is certainly showing..... Did you happen to weigh the car! Weather conditions?

I share your feelings on the cdv, but you still put in some impressive driving!

[SpankyLGT]

Did not weigh the car. But did not remove anything from the car. Had about 1/3rd of a tank of gas. Weather was 64 deg. sunny with a 15mph head wind.

[wunderkind]

how much did you pay for your ecutek tune? i like to compare with our local ecutek tuners. thanks!
looks like ecutek may be the way to go...

[KA81]

An ECUTek custom reflash for a stock car is around 800.00.

Not sure why it says Flywheel HP. The only thing the Dyno chart was shown for was to show the difference between the stock map and the retuned map.



i believe this is a CUSTOM tune for YOUR car, and not an off-the-shelf type of tune


hope that helped

[HighPsi91]

Wow, those are some nice times. I would be thrilled to have mine at that level. Id just be thrilled to have mine not ping and run so inconsistant day to day.

Congrats on the times. I was actually surprised mine launched as good as it did . I tried everything from 3500 to 6000 and teh clutch seemed to bite pretty good.

[jarrod]

yah..i want a car that will run a 13.4 in a 1/4 ...i'd be happy =)

[tuan]

Next time I'm sure Spanky will be beating those times with the new clutch line and a custom tune for his current setup.

Tuan

[SpankyLGT]

i believe this is a CUSTOM tune for YOUR car, and not an off-the-shelf type of tune


hope that helped

And what is your point?

A Custom ECUTek tune for "YOUR" car is around 850.00 including Dyno time. An off the shelf flash would be much less.

[axis008]

And what is your point?
I think he was telling wunderkind by stating that it's not any kind of ECU upgrade that is the same like AccessPort, but that it's a custom tune for only your specific car.

[jarrod]

Does Mach V use ecutek and do custom tuning? I live fairly close to them

[Colonel Angus]

Tuan,

forgive me for asking a general and rhetorical question, but assuming a 5EAT got the ECUTek treatment, what would you guess the kind of improvement in performance it would get? do you think it would be anything worth writing home about, given that ECUTek is the only mod done on the car?:confused:

[jim1969]

yes, it makes a difference on a 5EAT. :D

[Colonel Angus]

yes, it makes a difference on a 5EAT. :D

are you being sarcasticle?:confused:

[jim1969]

No, I'm speaking from experience. Stock with EcuTeK reflash 5EAT. 16 psi max boost. Very fast now, esp. in sport mode. I'll be getting a dyno run soon.

[Colonel Angus]

No, I'm speaking from experience. Stock with EcuTeK reflash 5EAT. 16 psi max boost. Very fast now, esp. in sport mode. I'll be getting a dyno run soon.

i assume you have an MBC in yours?:confused:

[jim1969]

EcuTeK tune only. No other engine management.

[Colonel Angus]

EcuTeK tune only. No other engine management.

let us know what kind of results you yield after you get it dyno'd:D

[tuan]

Tuan,

forgive me for asking a general and rhetorical question, but assuming a 5EAT got the ECUTek treatment, what would you guess the kind of improvement in performance it would get? do you think it would be anything worth writing home about, given that ECUTek is the only mod done on the car?:confused:

The gain's should be fairly close the manual. You can expect to shave off at least 3 tenths or more from the quarter mile. Drivability should improve as well.

Tuan

[Colonel Angus]

The gain's should be fairly close the manual. You can expect to shave off at least 3 tenths or more from the quarter mile. Drivability should improve as well.

Tuan

hmmmm....tempting......:D

[driggity]

Yup SAE is SAE This is hijacked from a google search I came up with.
Correction Factor
A key element to producing comparable dyno charts on a global basis is the Correction Factor, SAE Standard J1349, which applies the following weather station data--atmospheric pressure 29.23, air temperature 77 degrees Fahrenheit and humidity 0 percent--to all tests. These exact figures allow apples-to-apples comparison of runs from different cars, different facilities, etc. So graphs with SAE-corrected power were made to this standard.

But the SAE correction factor is generally considered to be not that accurate on turbocharged engines. Especially as the magnitude of the correction increases.

Spanky, at what RPM were you shifting during your runs?

[tuan]

But the SAE correction factor is generally considered to be not that accurate on turbocharged engines. Especially as the magnitude of the correction increases.


This is more likely at higher altitude. At sea level the SAE correction is very consistent whether your car is FI or NA. All WRX's and STi that I've had on the dyno year round have made consistent HP numbers, within 5-10hp of each other.

-Tuan

[rc0032]

Spanky – Sorry for thread jacking but after driving you car I was impressed with how smooth and powerful it was.

Tuan – I’m also considering having your voodoo done. The main reason would be: can you give me more drivability down low, say under 3k? 90% of my driving is done here and I would love a little better gas mileage. I know Cobbs tune is rich for safety but if you a lean this out a little … = more mpg. I don’t want to give up the gusto of the car and I do NOT want an aggressive tune. Is this possible? I’m running an Up and TBE.

[hadvw]

No, I'm speaking from experience. Stock with EcuTeK reflash 5EAT. 16 psi max boost. Very fast now, esp. in sport mode. I'll be getting a dyno run soon.

How does the EcuTeK affect the shift-response of the manual 5EAT mode.. If only it would shift faster (i.e. RIGHT NOW rather than "I'll think about it.. Maybe.. Ok.."), it'd be WELL WORTH IT to me..

HV

[Colonel Angus]

wouldnt that be independent of the ecu, and more along the duties of the shift computer? :confused:

[hadvw]

wouldnt that be independent of the ecu, and more along the duties of the shift computer? :confused:

Could well be..

But, on another forum, Shiv said he could adjust the "default" 500 msec response time of the throttle-by-wire, I was wondering if this would result in better shift response too?!?

HV

[tuan]

Spanky – Sorry for thread jacking but after driving you car I was impressed with how smooth and powerful it was.

Tuan – I’m also considering having your voodoo done. The main reason would be: can you give me more drivability down low, say under 3k? 90% of my driving is done here and I would love a little better gas mileage. I know Cobbs tune is rich for safety but if you a lean this out a little … = more mpg. I don’t want to give up the gusto of the car and I do NOT want an aggressive tune. Is this possible? I’m running an Up and TBE.

Either the Ecutek software or the stock ecu programming does not allow me to lean out the AFR higher than 14.7:1. Maybe Cobb's software might allow for leaner AFR in closed loop? I would have to see his software. Spanky, however has been telling me he has been getting far better gas mileage ever since the reflash. I'm not sure why as I shorten the closed to open delay period. The reflash tune on Spanky's car is actually richer than stock in open loop as I felt it was way to lean. The knock corrections recorded were actually alot smoother with more power on the reflash verse's the stock map :).
I can manipulate the drive by wire system so that throttle response would be better, I just haven't had a chance to play with it on the Legacy's, only on the STi's.

-Tuan

[tuan]

Could well be..

But, on another forum, Shiv said he could adjust the "default" 500 msec response time of the throttle-by-wire, I was wondering if this would result in better shift response too?!?

HV

I highly doubt it.

[Colonel Angus]

I highly doubt it.

i may have to get in touch with you if i do decide to break my own rule about not ever modding my legacy....

[SpankyLGT]

But the SAE correction factor is generally considered to be not that accurate on turbocharged engines. Especially as the magnitude of the correction increases.

Spanky, at what RPM were you shifting during your runs?

7k in first and 6.2K or so everywhere else. I'm not sure what the altitude of Norwalk Raceway is. But here in Chicago we are at around 642ft. above sea level.

[Soupboy]

but those whp/wtq just look really high for the OE LGT.

Tuan tuned my Rex and I recall the OE pulls were in the 165-175 whp/wtq range (can't find my maps). As tuned with APS UP and TBE it was doing 210-220 whp/wtq.

I would be equally surprised and thrilled if a stock LGT had wheel results of 210+ in either category - would imply less driveline loss than my Rex.

I'm really impressed by the torque figures.

[dark_rex]

but those whp/wtq just look really high for the OE LGT.


as has been said 25 times already. it depends on the dyno. what matters is the net increase.

dR

[Soupboy]

but as I said, Tuan tuned my Rex and I fully appreciate the focus being % increases, not absolute #s.

That said, I trust his equipment and those are big numbers absolute, % or otherwise.

I just hope he can do (somewhere near) the same for me...again.

as has been said 25 times already. it depends on the dyno. what matters is the net increase.

dR