1996 Outback - Won't Start

[dwalker]

Greetings;

I've just completed a complete engine rebuild for my 1996 OutBack Legacy. Wen't together well, with no parts left over:p But then the test, to start it. Wont' Start :confused: I've test the ignition relay, purchased a new igniter, checked all of the ground wires, checked the coil (not a factor yet because no signal is coming from the igniter to the coil). Still no spark to the system. Last three items, ECM (Engine Control Module, alias the computer) the crankshaft sensor or the camshaft sensor. Has anyone come across this problem before ? Is there an issue with the ECM/Computer becuase it had no power for 2.5 months? Can you reset the ECM? If so How? Any ideas would be helpful.

Dan
Chicago

[*Jedimaster*]

Did you reconnect the battery? Othe than that, I can't imagine why you'd have no current to any of the systems.

[dwalker]

Battery attached ? of Course.... The engine cranks but does not start. Spoke with a subaru tech and as previoulsy stated it could be a damaged crankshaft sensor or camshaft sensor. I can get these for $20.00 (US) each.. We'll see what happens. :rolleyes:

[evolutionmovement]

I'm thinking the same thing - cam or crank position sensor. Are you sure the timing belt is lined up correctly?

Steve

[dwalker]

I took special care in making sure the timing belt was on correct. However, the timing marks on the left side of the motor would not align perfect with the belt. The marks are about 2/16th of an inch off. I hope that would not make a difference. If so I'll have to pull out the radiator and everthing else to get at the timing belt and realign it again. If the sensors don't do it', I'll have to pull it out and look at the timing marks. What a pain that will be :( .. Thanks for your thought. Not many responses to my problem.. Guess I've got a lot of people on this one....

[evolutionmovement]

Is that the SOHC or DOHC? The trick is to count the number of teeth as a back up (in case the belt is printed off a little), but they should line up nearly perfect. However, it sounds like if it is off it's only by a little and it shouldn't cause the car to not start at all. The ECU may be bad if the cam and crank sensors are good. Having no power shouldn't bother it.

Steve

[dwalker]

Last night I look at the timing marks on the intake and exhaust sprockets.. Just fine. Replaced the cam shaft and crankshaft sensors, and finally removed and inspected all connections on the wiring harness under the intake manifold. All good and yet still no spark. It really appears to be the computer, or wiring from the computer to the Igniter and coil. One last item, with the key in and placed to the "on" position, I tested the leads on the igniter plug. The test light did illuminate which I belive indicates a signal from the computer.. but doesn't mean it acutally works. So it really is begining to look as if the computer has failed.. but how to test that one ??? :cool:

[impostor]

Did you make sure ALL your grounds are connected, tightened, and clean. I experienced a similar situation after completing my engine swap. It turned out I had only started the bolt by hand that secures the ground for the engine wiring harness on the intake manifold and forgot about it. I was getting DTC's for all 4 injectors and every sensor on the engine.

If you have a scan tool it would really help. If you have a whole slew of codes, you know where your problem is. Just the attempt of starting the engine should be enough for the ECU to store the code(s).

-Jim

[dwalker]

Still working on this problem. Checked the engine grounds, I hope that I've got them all. After talking with a dealer he said that while I was putting it together one of the pins in one of the connectors that connects the wiring harness on the intake manifold to the ECM could have a bad pin.. So, I'll check around their this weekend and see what I come up with . I greatly appreciate the advise. I just can't belive that taking an engine in and out would mess up the electrical that much.. I think that the ECM needs a reset... Ordered a scantool and waiting on it to check the computer.. I'll keep this up to date as I progress. Maybe able to help someone else.. :confused:

[Subietonic]

Also, are you getting any kind of combustion or does the engine crank endlessly without trying to start? Can really only one of three things, electrical (ECU, ignition - ignitor, coil pack/wires/plugs), air (MAF, TPS, IAS), and fuel (fuel pump relay, fuel pump, fuel filter, injectors)

Do you hear the fuel pump "prime" the system when you first turn on the key to the "run" position. Should last for a few seconds. If not, suggest fuel delivery is the issue. Also, fuel air lock - did you bleed the fuel system when you reconnected the fuel lines to the fuel rails. IIRC it is not self-bleeding. Turn the key to the on position (not accessory), take the cap off the fuel rail closest to the battery (should be one there) and press the valve inward. If no fuel comes out, then just hold it down until the fuel flows out. Then try your restart process. Just don't touch the gas pedal. REMEMBER - fuel is flammable so take necessary precautions to dry it up before you go further.

Did you possibly connect the "return" line to your fuel rail? There's three fuel lines IIRC so it's important to make sure you've got them reconnected correctly.

Just a couple of quick thoughts.

SBT

[dwalker]

First, thanks for the last reply. No I did not bleed the fuel system. I was informed by the local subaru technicians to disconnect the fuel from the injectors. Too much fuel was going to the pistions. He said I was "Washing" the pistons with fuel. Not good I was, so the fuel line is now disconnected. Now I had the computer tested and it was showing that it was at 39 rpm and the throttle position was at 32.7%. Also the temprature sensor is bad.

Again all wiring harnesses were checked, no problems found. I checked all wires for continuity and for correct ohms readings. Still no probles found. The reason I don't suspect any type of fuel is that there is no spark. I would presume that if there was spark and yet no fuel the engine would still try to start. But Nothing !! Next step is to get a used computer that is known to run.. If that is not it. Then time to tow it tothe dealer and give them synopsis of what was done. Thanks again...:rolleyes:

[dwalker]

Oh yeah, when I turn on the key I do hear the fuel pump prime for a few seconds. Has a new igniter, ignition coil, ignition wires, plugs, crankshaft sensor, camshaft sensor, battery & all wire harness have been inspected for any broken wires.

[Subietonic]

Was the Idle Air Solenoid or the Throttle Position Sensor replaced or disconnected/mounted from intake/throttle body positions?

Somehow I just don't buy the "washing" the pistons with gasoline from the injectors. Everything has to be correctly working before the injectors will even cycle so unless your plugs are wet with gasoline I don't think that is an issue.

Do you have a way to check each plug wire to see if you're getting spark to the plugs, like an ignition tester that fits beteen the spark plug and the plug wire and lights up if there's spark?

Would love to look it over for/with you but unfortunately, no can do... from here, so will just have to troubleshoot at a distance. Now where is my repair manual when I need it?

SBT

[dwalker]

Yes, the throttle position sensor was removed after the testing of the computer. The "washing" of the pistions was a comment made from a local subaru technician. No tester to put in between the coil and the spark plug wire. Tried the old fashion method of a screw driver to see if there was spark or not. I placed a mark on the position sensor to ensure I place it back correctly. Now the only test that has failed is I was told by the subaru dealer to check the ohms resistance of pin number 20 on the ECM to chassie ground. Should be less than 5 ohms. It's not... So I traced the entire wire and found it to have good coninuity to the engine compartment. It then connects with the throttle positon sensor and coolant temperatrue sensor. All wires check good. Removed intake manifold again. Double check all wires for good coninuity and ground. All check good. Next step is to replaced the computer.. Any Ideas of where to find a good used one? Thanks again

[dwalker]

We'll another update........ sent the computer to a place in Flordia that test computers for free. They checked out the computer and was checked good. Oh... forgot to say that I got a code of P0340 on the computer. CamSahaft Sensor Circuit Failure. The computer is good, new sensor ... That leaves wiring problems on the Engine wiring harness. The one that is attached to the intake manifold. So I have to remove the intake manifold again and test all leads for resistance and continuity. Focusing on the wiring to the left side of the motor and the camshaft sensor. The battle continues.

[Subietonic]

ECUs don't typically crash, especially after working correctly before the rebuild. I suspect it's somewhere in the TPS, IAS, CPS or the harness connection at the engine - transmission joint.

Do you have compression?

SBT

[dwalker]

SBT:

Got the results of the computer check.. said it was ok.. except for the P0340 code which is pointing to the th CamShaft Sensor. Replaced the sensor, but Never checked the wiring between the sensor and the ECM/ECU. Replaced the ignitor, and ignition coil. TPS appears to function ok. When I turn the key on I do hear the prime and getting plenty of fuel. I'll check the fuel rail as you suggest. This weekend I'll be at it again, but at least I have a place to go now.. towards the CamShaft Sensor and I'll also check the crankshaft sensor wiring too. Oh.... MAF = ?; TPS = Throttle Position Sensor; IAS=? Thank you again for your response. Not many I my situation.

Thank You

DW - Chicago Area

[Subietonic]

[
MAF = Mass Air Flow Sensor (squarish box device that sets on the air intake after the filter and has an electrical connection attached to it) - your's may not have one but should

IAS - Idle Air Solenoid. - Again, your's may not have this, but should and it's located just to the left and alongside the throttle body. Here's a longish writeup I did on NASIOC.com regarding IAS...http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=375862&highlight=throttle+body

HTH

SBT

[dwalker]

Greetings;

To Answer your first... Just cranks endlessly without trying to start. As indicated earlier a second computer was put in and still coding a P0340 or camshaft sensor circuit malfunction. So after two computers say the same thing..... I bought another camshaft sensor and have yet to try it. I will in the next few days. I have also ordered a new Left Side Intake CamShaft gear. The one with the sensors built in for interaction with the sensor. I will say that if this doesn't fix it, I'll throw in the towel and give it to a dealer. Worried a bout that becuase they will say I put it back together wrong, or they will want to redo all the test that I have already done to it. But I have no other sources of information to try to get this fixed. .... So... Almost at the end of my rope on this.. Just can't figure it out... After testing all wiring in the engine compart, changing most sensors, and two computers... It just doesn't make sense. I didn't change anything electrical in the engine.. I've done this two other times but on a Toyota.. Never ran into such issues before.. Just really disgusted at this point...

[Subietonic]

DW - I'm not sure if you checked but my question above about compression was to see if you're getting compression in your cylinders. Do you have a compression checker? Just make sure not to use the deep hole plug adaptor. Use the shallow one so you don't possibly compromise the piston top.

If you don't have compression or have unequal compression, then you can have valves out of time. I know that you indicated that your reassembled the camshaft sprockets/timing belt alignment correctly, but all of your sensors, including the ones you've replaced, are pointing toward a camshaft alignment problem.

Since it sounds like you've checked all the other areas that we've discussed, that would be where I'd focus my attention. I don't think it's possible but is one of the sprockets on backwards or reversed side to side? That would definitely impact the sensor's ability to read it.

If the sensor won't send the signal to the ECU, nothing else downstream will fire and allow the motor to start. I know you checked but is there good connectivity between the cam position sensor "connector" and the ECU? What about between the connector and the sensor itself? Believe these are encapsulated barrell connectors which would make it hard to futz up but could be a causal factor.

For whatever reason, the ECU is not getting a signal from the CPS so that's where I'd focus my energies. Too bad you can't just "will" it to start at this point.

Check your compression if that's good, move to the cam, valve timing and the CPS and crank sensor too.

Keep going, you'll get there. Diligence pays off in the end.

SBT

[dwalker]

SBT;

Thanks for the word of encourgements.... tuff at this point. Your right on the camshaft thing. The dealer things that when I had the heads done, the shop put them on wrong. So I investigaged this one. Before I took the cams apart, I took a digital picture and a close up of the cams in the head. Then after I got them back, I took another pic. Then yesterday I compared the numbers of the cams on the before and after shots.. They are correct. So only thing left is the new camshaft sensor and when I get the camshaft sproket in, I'll put that in also. Don't have a compression tester to get in on that small space. To get the plugs out is really difficult to do. What about the belt? Had a new one put on last september so it's realtivly new. But of course those lines on the belts don't line up with the marks on the cams... Any tricks to getting the cams on the left side just perfect ? The botton one (exhaust) on the left side always doesn't line up perfect always a 16th off or so on those double lines on the bottom of the intake sprocket to the double lines on top of the exhaust cam sprocket. I'll keep on going,,,,, thanks again.. You have been helpful in my quest to get this done..

Thanks
Dan
Chicago area....

[dwalker]

SBT;


Is it possible that the cams are on wrong? The intake on the exhaust and exhaust on intake side? Or if they were wrong, during cranking, wouldn't the valves clash if these cams were on wrong? One dealer I talked with told me that this is possible? I'll be working on this weekend, waiting to get the new cam sprocket in. I'll keep this post up to date.

Dan in Chicago

[Subietonic]

SBT;


Is it possible that the cams are on wrong? The intake on the exhaust and exhaust on intake side? Or if they were wrong, during cranking, wouldn't the valves clash if these cams were on wrong? One dealer I talked with told me that this is possible? I'll be working on this weekend, waiting to get the new cam sprocket in. I'll keep this post up to date.

Dan in Chicago

I'm doubting that the cams are in backwards E for I or vice versa, because you would have clash betweent he valves themselves or the valves/pistons...yikes!. I think something is suspect though at the cam sprocket and position sensor junction since that's where all of your data is pointing. A compression test would really be helpful at this juncture to rule out that side of the equation.

Can't recall if i sent you this link... have found it most helpful, with good pics of the process... http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/2.5Timing.pdf. There's a lot of other good articles on this site, which is set up for independent Subaru technicians to keep them abreast of the latest changes in technology and repair processes.

It will run again and probably run better than you remembered. Just keep chipping away at this, because this nut will crack... it just may take a little longer than you initially thought. ;)

SBT

[dwalker]

SBT;

Thanks for the link.. very good information. By the way, I received the new sprocket today and the magnets / metal tabs on the intake sprocket are a little different. Here's the secnario... When I had the old one off I cleaned it really good. Which includes taking the intake sprocket and taking a wire wheel on a bench grinder to the metal tabs / magnets to make sure that they were "really clean" We'll I think I messed up those sensor tabs. On the new on two of them are like a copper color and the other ones are a brighter metal colored compared to the old one on the car now. Also the tabs are larger. Where the old one they are recessed more.. We'll I'll find out tomorrow.. Thanks again for the infor.. Good resource for timing belts on these 2.5L engines..

Dan

[dwalker]

Update : --- ( We'll I put in the new Left side Intake camshaft sprocket and another new camshaft sensor. No go... Computer still coding the P0340 about Camshaft Circuit Malfunction. I did a quick ohms check from the sensor connector to the connector into the cab. Good Condinuity and ohms check is only 0.1 ohms resistance for both wires to the Cam Shaft Sensor. I am really at a lost now. Even though the ccomputer codes an error with the Cam Shaft Sensor, is it possible that the Crank Shaft sensor is also suspect?

Before attempting a restart again; I did connect the MAF and that didn't make a difference. I also took out the plug on the number 2 cylinder and checked the plug. Nothing appears out of the ordinary there.

Really don't know where to go from here. If it still codes P0340 what else could it be ? I've checked and rechecked the wiring because I know that if the resistance is too high on the wires, the signal won't get back to the ECM for proper functionality. So.... What's next? As indciated, don't know......

Dan

[dwalker]

It's been a while since I updated the status... We'll All Good ! :redface: After a lot of work on this, it was discovered that I did a dummy !! :( The Camshaft Sensor connector and the fuel injector connectors are the same type. During the removal of the wiring harness from the engine, I must have mis-labeled or just plain screwed up. But overall just one wire out of the entire rebuild... Not too bad..

We'll to continue.. As everyone can recall the P0340 was the camshaft sensor circuit malfunction. Because the connector was not connected to the camshaft sensor... of course it was going to code.. Once "Properly" Connected the code went away, but yet no starting yet.. Last issue was a loose connector at the spark coil connector and the main connector was not 100% pushed in.

So in the end,, 1 wire gave me grief for a while.. So lesson learned.. Make sure you don't mix those wires up,,, I even labeled them before dissassembly.. Oh well, the car is running really good.. Better performance and all well.... :)

Dan
Chicago

[Subietonic]

Congratulations Dan. Lot of work and some pretty darn good detective work too. Glad it's back up and running again. How about some cliff's notes on the rebuild itself... lessons learned, things to avoid, shortcuts, etc., if you have time.

Well done!

SBT

[dwalker]

I'd be glade to share my experiences... what's the best way to do that ????


Dan
Chicago :redface:

[Subietonic]

I'd suggest putting it in the Normally Aspirated technical forums.

Just start with what the motivating problem was, then indicate how you analyzed/isolated the problem(s) and then what you did to the engine during the rebuild.

Things like what types of pistons, rings, headgasket, gasket sets in general, etc. Part numbers are particularly helpful, especially if they were Subaru OEM stuff.

I'd also mention "how" you isolated the wiring, how you checked each "sub-system" end to end to end when it wouldn't initially run.

Just take your time and reconstruct it in WordPad or an easy text editor so you can cut and paste it into the forum thread tha you're creating.

If it sounds too hard, then you're looking at it as a task rather than a lessons learned guide to follow the next time you have to do this.

SBT

[rc0032]

I'd be glade to share my experiences... what's the best way to do that ????


Dan
Chicago :redface:

Good work :D

You should bring herto the Thursday meet in Chicagoland Link (http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?p=156170#post156170)